Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

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Armagh18

Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 08:35:11 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 08:11:33 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 19, 2024, 08:07:25 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on January 19, 2024, 12:14:22 PMI mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 



In fairness, it's mad a Div 1 team, last year and this year, are playing in Junior Championship.

In south Derry you'd be looked down on if that happened. Clubs would nearly take you to court over a technicality to stay in Div. 1 and play senior championship.

If Arva were maybe Div. 1 and played Intermediate, you'd nearly let it slide but junior!  Kerry divisional teams are another joke

Regardless, the inter-county club championships are fantastic and are very enjoyable over the long winter months.  Great viewing at all levels, between the 2 codes.
At the risk of opening another can of worms, I really think the divisional sides are class as they get lads from small clubs playing a far better standard than they normally would.

Do think something needs done about them sending their 9th best to to intermediate though.

The divisional sides would struggle to be viable I imagine if there were 16 senior teams.
I posted last year about how a divisional structure could work in Armagh, I must dig it out again. Obviously hypothetical, it'll never happen.
Yeah would love it see it tried in Armagh. I think Leitrim or Roscommon tried it last year.

Even 12 senior teams would be better than 8.

intheknowhow

Quote from: Look-Up! on January 20, 2024, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: intheknowhow on January 20, 2024, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 19, 2024, 10:33:14 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 19, 2024, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 19, 2024, 06:40:48 PM
Quote from: intheknowhow on January 19, 2024, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 19, 2024, 05:28:41 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on January 19, 2024, 04:25:52 PMHow are teams relegated to Intermediate and Junior championships in Cavan? I understand winning is the pathway to the level above, but how do you go about going down?
1 up 1 down. Essentially the bottom 4 in the group stages play off in relegation semi finals, and then losers play relegation final when the Championship quarters, semi etc are ongoing. So overall loser relegated and replaced by below Championship winner. You have to win to move up, lose to move down

Only exception to this is when rejigging numbers, and the odd year you relegate 2 and so on. Covid also messed it here when none were relegated in 2020, but had a promotion, so 2 were relegated in 2021 and so on to rejig numbers across the 3 Championships

Your league is a farce so and handy for outside managers to make a few bob. Mess about in the league and win an odd game in champ and your grand.

Lose a few games in Monaghan and Tyrone in the league and your gone,you get found out pretty quick.
Yes, mostly. Not for the everyday club player, but mostly. Split season the issue here overall. Glad you've finally caught up

Managers still lose their jobs. Might not be as valued, but you can't lose all your games either. My own team cut their manager mid League last season.

So the league is juat a waste of time so. What's tbe point of lads playing if no interest in it.

Being a club manager in Cavan must be handy money...and no pressure.
There is interest in it, just a much lesser competition and a great chance for lads on the fringes to exposure to a higher level in a club with second team, or for bringing young lads through.

I'd argue taking the league so seriously is a gimmick managers use to rip clubs off and charge more for their services with all the additional training and fitness stats. You cannot expect club players to be at peak from March to October. So I'd take it with a pinch of salt how tough the leagues are or at least how practical it is from a player welfare POV.

Whatever little joy is left in the club game is slowly being sucked away completely by these "professional" managerial setups and they always know how to charge regardless of results. Northern managers are notorious for it and they're picking up plenty of work in Cavan. Indeed in Dreadnought's own club it was a northern duo who unceremoniously got the gate. Seriously ignorant pair completely stuck up their own holes and extremely detrimental to player morale and development. 

Very backward way of looking at it! Why would you train less than before champ?

You pay for what you get
Of course you have to train but you need to develop players too and you won't do that by sickening a large portion of the group who you have no intention of giving any meaningful time to. Or in some cases being on players back over the Xmas long long before anything will be kicked. That's OTT for ordinary club players.

I know what they pay for. These lads are paid by the training session. Any it's always the fix for every problem, more sessions, more sessions, more sessions.

It's the difference in winning and losing. You want to do it or you don't. The top club teams manage themselves. Well training is how you get better...

tonto1888

Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
works really well for us. For example the top 2 teams in Armagh league were Cross and Clann Eirean last year. 15/16 were Shane O'Neills and Grange. The bottom 2 are a lot closer to intermediate level than they would be to top of senior. Because the league is split into 8 instead of 16 Shanes and Grange were able to play teams closer to their own level and so were Cross and Clann Eireann. Gives more competitive and meaningful games imo.
I'd question how well it works given that clubs are being relegated and punished for having county players. If the league and championships weren't linked I'd be okay with it but it's part of the reason a club like Cullyhanna are keen to change the set up now. It also affects the seedings come the group stage of the championship too which is something that should be tidied up. I'd prefer a system like the one in Cavan as I think the championship should dictate what championship you play in the following year, but each to their own.

Ps - didn't Madden play CE in a league decider in 2023, with Cross out of the running by the final game?

PPS- to answer an earlier query, 2011 was the final year of the old league set up. Over the course of the next 3 years the championships and leagues were aligned, negatively impacting a club like Forkhill for example who probably would have won a junior championship, but instead found themselves at intermediate championship level, followed by senior championship, as they kept going on good runs in the league (before A/B was brought in, this was originally only at Junior league level). I know a few Forkhill lads who weren't happy about it. The old set up probably would have seen them reach div 2 with a junior championship along the way, and a crack at the intermediate for a few years, before probably finding their level at division 3 again.
Can we knock this myth that Cullyhanna were relegated because they were missing their county players on the head? They survived relegation, were nowhere near it in fact, for many years in the same scenario. They were missing a lot more than their county players for various reasons.

ranch

Quote from: tonto1888 on January 20, 2024, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
works really well for us. For example the top 2 teams in Armagh league were Cross and Clann Eirean last year. 15/16 were Shane O'Neills and Grange. The bottom 2 are a lot closer to intermediate level than they would be to top of senior. Because the league is split into 8 instead of 16 Shanes and Grange were able to play teams closer to their own level and so were Cross and Clann Eireann. Gives more competitive and meaningful games imo.
I'd question how well it works given that clubs are being relegated and punished for having county players. If the league and championships weren't linked I'd be okay with it but it's part of the reason a club like Cullyhanna are keen to change the set up now. It also affects the seedings come the group stage of the championship too which is something that should be tidied up. I'd prefer a system like the one in Cavan as I think the championship should dictate what championship you play in the following year, but each to their own.

Ps - didn't Madden play CE in a league decider in 2023, with Cross out of the running by the final game?

PPS- to answer an earlier query, 2011 was the final year of the old league set up. Over the course of the next 3 years the championships and leagues were aligned, negatively impacting a club like Forkhill for example who probably would have won a junior championship, but instead found themselves at intermediate championship level, followed by senior championship, as they kept going on good runs in the league (before A/B was brought in, this was originally only at Junior league level). I know a few Forkhill lads who weren't happy about it. The old set up probably would have seen them reach div 2 with a junior championship along the way, and a crack at the intermediate for a few years, before probably finding their level at division 3 again.
Can we knock this myth that Cullyhanna were relegated because they were missing their county players on the head? They survived relegation, were nowhere near it in fact, for many years in the same scenario. They were missing a lot more than their county players for various reasons.

Relegating any club in the championship based on league positions when they're deprived of their best players is unfair. Forkhill and Shane's were also affected last year, not just Cullyhanna the year before. Link the two competitions by all means but a better system needs to be found for relegation in that case.

ranch

#829
Quote from: bennydorano on January 20, 2024, 11:32:18 AM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 08:35:11 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 08:11:33 PM
Quote from: marty34 on January 19, 2024, 08:07:25 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on January 19, 2024, 12:14:22 PMI mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 



In fairness, it's mad a Div 1 team, last year and this year, are playing in Junior Championship.

In south Derry you'd be looked down on if that happened. Clubs would nearly take you to court over a technicality to stay in Div. 1 and play senior championship.

If Arva were maybe Div. 1 and played Intermediate, you'd nearly let it slide but junior!  Kerry divisional teams are another joke

Regardless, the inter-county club championships are fantastic and are very enjoyable over the long winter months.  Great viewing at all levels, between the 2 codes.
At the risk of opening another can of worms, I really think the divisional sides are class as they get lads from small clubs playing a far better standard than they normally would.

Do think something needs done about them sending their 9th best to to intermediate though.

The divisional sides would struggle to be viable I imagine if there were 16 senior teams.
I posted last year about how a divisional structure could work in Armagh, I must dig it out again. Obviously hypothetical, it'll never happen.
Would love to see it in Armagh myself, posted before on it too, run the JFC as normal, when over put a couple of amalgamations/divisional sides into IFC, repeat for Intermediate teams into SFC. The success of it would be heavily reliant on team buy in. Could only be good for County football too.


REGIONS - COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIP
Clubs would compete on their own in the county championship unless relegated to intermediate - when relegated they'd join their regional side the following season. Winners of the intermediate championship would join the senior set up the following year and leave their regional side).

1. SOUTH ARMAGH EAST (cruppen, shanes, corrinshego, whitecross, lissummon, o'hanlons, belleek, killeavy, dromintee)

2. SOUTH ARMAGH WEST (Newtownhamilton, Dorsey, Silverbridge, Cullyhanna, Cullaville, Mullabawn, Forkhill, crossmaglen)

3. MID ARMAGH WEST (Clady, Ballymacnab, Keady, Derrynoose, Middletown, madden, granemore)

4. MID ARMAGH CENTRAL (Pearse Og, An Port Mor, Tullysaran, Grange, Mullabrack, harps)

5. NORTH ARMAGH COUNTRY (Annaghmore, Clonmore, Collegeland, Wolfe Tones, Sarsfields, Ballyhegan, maghery)

6. NORTH ARMAGH TOWN (St Peter's, St Paul's, Clan na Gael, Tir na nog, Eire Og, clann eireann)

Unless you're one of the 8/10/12 senior clubs you'd then join the regional team for the senior county championship. My own view is that 10 clubs would be about the right number as 6 regional teams would get us up to 16 teams in the county championship.
Top 10 clubs in the county at present who would be competing on their own would be along the lines of Cross, CE, clan na gael, Cullyhanna, Madden, silverbridge, killeavy, granemore, ballymacnab, harps?
Senior clubs would also have a senior club championship without regional sides, similar to that of Kerry. Intermediate and junior championship would also run as normal-have a look at Kerry's calendar to figure out dates etc.
This is just a rough example of how it might work, I'm sure there are better minds than mine who could refine this even further.
Some clubs could also fall into another area possibly.
Inevitably some regional sides will be stronger than others but it'll at least give every player in the county an opportunity to compete for the county championship.
Thoughts?

P.s. apologies if I missed out any clubs.

general_lee

Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.


ranch

#831
Quote from: general_lee on January 21, 2024, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.


I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level. Our biggest issue back at that time was the lack of a relegation system in championship. That, along with the dominance of one club at senior championship level, led to clubs regrading to intermediate, with a knock on effect to junior,. The championship set up did need refreshed as a result but relegation play offs were the way to go in my opinion. Down have a similar set up now (Bosco were Div 4 and intermediate in 2023 as they won their relegation play off in the championship, whereas the junior winners were in Div 3).
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

Armagh18

Quote from: ranch on January 21, 2024, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 21, 2024, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.


I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level.
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

The thing about seeding the championship groups is that it helps prevent dead rubbers in the league towards the end- if it wasnt seeded and a team with a couple of games to go knew they couldn't get promoted or relegated they're left with nothing to play for- but if they've a chance at a better championship draw they'll push to finish 4th in the league rather than 5th. Personally prefer straight knock out for championship.

ranch

Quote from: Armagh18 on January 21, 2024, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 21, 2024, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 21, 2024, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on January 19, 2024, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on January 19, 2024, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.


I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level.
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

The thing about seeding the championship groups is that it helps prevent dead rubbers in the league towards the end- if it wasnt seeded and a team with a couple of games to go knew they couldn't get promoted or relegated they're left with nothing to play for- but if they've a chance at a better championship draw they'll push to finish 4th in the league rather than 5th. Personally prefer straight knock out for championship.

I think that's my biggest issue with the set up we have. We've tried so hard to make the league mean something by linking it to championship first of all, and now seedings as well, that it's made the championship seem quite flat and uninteresting until it gets to the latter stages.

SouthOfThe Bann

Quote from: Armagh18 on January 21, 2024, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: ranch on January 21, 2024, 12:55:24 PM
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Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on January 19, 2024, 04:01:15 PM
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Quote from: ranch on January 19, 2024, 02:40:14 PMI'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.
That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)
Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.
Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.


I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level.
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

The thing about seeding the championship groups is that it helps prevent dead rubbers in the league towards the end- if it wasnt seeded and a team with a couple of games to go knew they couldn't get promoted or relegated they're left with nothing to play for- but if they've a chance at a better championship draw they'll push to finish 4th in the league rather than 5th. Personally prefer straight knock out for championship.

As much as I'm not a fan of the Armagh system I do like the idea of seeding teams as per their league placings for championship.

Even in counties where there's no link between league and championship its something that could be introduced.