The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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Milltown Row2

Very good BC1.. My own kids have the same high expectations and as parents we have encouraged that, rightly or wrongly as it is in some cases...

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Tony Baloney


Brick Tamlin

The best thread on the board ever. Bar none.


Rudi

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Excellent post. Some might argue its difficult to respect people who don't respect themselves.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:59:32 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

More trial by media! news outlets looking to get more on this.. the girl will be exposed here at some point, even though most (if you went looking for) know who she is
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Dinny Breen

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.
#newbridgeornowhere

sid waddell

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Dinny Breen

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.
#newbridgeornowhere

Franko

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Genuine question - I've seen this 'rape culture' soundbyte used hundreds of times in the past few weeks.  What do you mean by this? How do you define it?

brokencrossbar1

#3505
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 04, 2018, 01:17:29 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

More in a general societal sense Dinny, school sports day, everyone gets a medal, School's art competition, everyone is a winner, this is not a hard and fast rule but I have seen an awful lot of this type of attitude, particularly when I comes to underage coaching when a parent questions why their son is not getting on. I have a rule for the team I coach for when we attend blitz's. The players who are on the age all go before any younger lad, no matter how good some of the younger lads are. The younger lads rotate if needed and the same player never goes to 2 blitz's in a row out of the younger group no matter who they are or how good they are. My attitude is to improve the lads on the older group and the younger lads have another year to make that step. Some parents and fellow coaches have argued against this as I've left better young players at home over weaker older players but I stand by my approach. The parents now understand that they cannot demand and as a consequence the players understand better also. This means that no everyone's johnny gets a game but when they do get it they appreciate it.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Franko on April 04, 2018, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Genuine question - I've seen this 'rape culture' soundbyte used hundreds of times in the past few weeks.  What do you mean by this? How do you define it?

Have the popcorn at the ready for this one!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

sid waddell

Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 04, 2018, 01:17:29 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

I found it an absolutely incredible leap to link encouragement of participation in sport in a less pressurised environment to predatory sexual behaviour.

Things have never been more pressurised for young people. Far from creating a society where there "no losers", young people these days grow up with more pressure on them than ever before. Greater pressure to get good exam results, greater pressure at work, greater pressure in terms of finding an affordable place to live, pressure to look good, pressure to conform.

It's only a short leap from that to claiming that the abolition of corporal punishment in schools is to blame for a predatory sexual culture.

AZOffaly

What is a 'rape culture'?

Usually when someone says a culture exists, it means it is pervasive within the group, or society in general. Websters dictionary defines it as

1 a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time popular culture Southern culture
b : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization a corporate culture focused on the bottom line
c : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic studying the effect of computers on print culture
Changing the culture of materialism will take time ... —Peggy O'Mara
d : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations


I don't know that there is a rape culture, where there's a shared attitude, or set of values, that rape is ok. Rape as a crime is abhorrent in society I would think.