All Ireland Football Final 2017 Mayo V Dublin

[Declan]

I wonder if genuine Dub supporters would answer a few questions; no messing now, the questions are serious.
It seems to me that Dubs in general feel annoyed/ perplexed/ resentful or whatever that all outside County Dublin are jealous of the Dubs' success and put it down to jealousy. A classic Dubs v Culchies scenario, if ever there was one.

Don't feel annoyed, perplexed or resentful at all. I can understand other counties being jealous of  the recent success but I put it down to people being sick of us winning all the time

Seems you think all your recent successes can be put down to the sheer talent of the players, there is nothing else involved. Once the like of Brogan, Cluxton, Connolly etc. retire, thing will return to normal once more.

I think by far and away the major reason for the recent success is the special group of players that have recently worn the jersey- no doubt about it. at least 5 of them are the greatest Dublin players in their position of all time and a couple are in the top 5/6 ever to play the game. When they finish up I do think we'll still be in the top echelon of teams but won't be as successful as we have been

By and large, youse all seem to hate the northern sides with their bloody packed defences, who won't open it and play like the Dubs.
Are you with me so far?

Don't hate them at all but would prefer to play Mayo/Kerry/Kildare type matches than the other ones

I think the above is a fair representation of general Dublin attitudes and I'm not one bit interested in trading insults with anyone, okay?

Maybe I'm not a fair representative of general attitudes 

How many of you remember the All Ireland semi against Donegal in 2011? Dublin eventually won, 0-08 to 0-06 in what was widely hailed as the most boring game of all time.

Certainly do

This was Colm Keys take on it in the Indo, entitled "Dublin-Donegal 2011 semi-final: The day that shook football's landscape to the core."
Anyone who is a glutton for punishment can read about it here.
According to Mickey Whelan, the Dubs coach,  ""There is no such thing as a right or wrong system. If it works and people buy into it, it can be really effective. We had our own systems."
What for it's worth, I kind of agree with Mickey that the end justifies the means. It's all about winning and a team, Dublin included, will do anything it can to win and stuff the entertainment value.
Dublin has taken a full turn around in the way they play and now Dub supporters despise the tactics used six years ago. Why do you think Dublin has made such a dramatic change to their football philosophy?

Those tactics were used in a one off game and I'd say that since then we've returned to our more natural way of playing

Mayo and other western counties seem to moan a lot about how far their players have to travel to train from their home and places of work/study and claim it puts them at a serious disadvantage. Do you agree or disagree?

Its an obvious advantage but I wonder what has happened to the days of collective training in Dublin for country teams with enough people to make it worthwhile in pure fitness terms - Does every training session in the early part of the year have to be attended by all 30 in Castlebar /Galway etc. Obviously the need to work on game tactics and scenarios etc is different

I'm really curious here. This arises from the last post by The Hill is Blue and I wonder how many Dubs share his views.
Better still, is there a genuine Dublin viewpoint that you compete with other counties on equal terms.

I think we compete on equal terms with the top counties in terms of prep/ resources etc for senior inter county teams. I don't think we have an inherent advantage over Kerry/Mayo/Tyrone other Div 1 teams in this regard. The obvious question around playing home league games in Croker and getting to sleep in their own house on big match mornings might be seen as an advantage but at the elite level I wonder really how much it is.

Life is short and I won't respond to abuse but I know the vast majority of Dubs here and elsewhere are sound characters and they most likely have rational opinions on some or all of the above.

Hope I've been able to help

[sid waddell]

It seems to me that Dubs in general feel annoyed/ perplexed/ resentful or whatever that all outside County Dublin are jealous of the Dubs' success and put it down to jealousy. A classic Dubs v Culchies scenario, if ever there was one.
Seems you think all your recent successes can be put down to the sheer talent of the players, there is nothing else involved. Once the like of Brogan, Cluxton, Connolly etc. retire, thing will return to normal once more.

The Brogans, Cluxton and Connolly were all there before Dublin "got their house in order".

By and large, youse all seem to hate the northern sides with their bloody packed defences, who won't open it and play like the Dubs.
Are you with me so far?
I think the above is a fair representation of general Dublin attitudes and I'm not one bit interested in trading insults with anyone, okay?
How many of you remember the All Ireland semi against Donegal in 2011? Dublin eventually won, 0-08 to 0-06 in what was widely hailed as the most boring game of all time.
This was Colm Keys take on it in the Indo, entitled "Dublin-Donegal 2011 semi-final: The day that shook football's landscape to the core."
Anyone who is a glutton for punishment can read about it here.

Fair's fair. Dublin were not the ones responsible for that game being so turgid.

Dublin were rampant against Tyrone in the previous game, scoring 0-22 in what was the first real taste of the fluent attacking game that was to come from Dublin teams over the next six years.

Dublin did play some really turgid defensive fare in 2010 in both the league and championship, but had moved on significantly by 2011.

According to Mickey Whelan, the Dubs coach,  ""There is no such thing as a right or wrong system. If it works and people buy into it, it can be really effective. We had our own systems."

Jim Gavin says exactly the same thing.

[TheGreatest]

I wonder if genuine Dub supporters would answer a few questions; no messing now, the questions are serious.
It seems to me that Dubs in general feel annoyed/ perplexed/ resentful or whatever that all outside County Dublin are jealous of the Dubs' success and put it down to jealousy. A classic Dubs v Culchies scenario, if ever there was one.
Seems you think all your recent successes can be put down to the sheer talent of the players, there is nothing else involved. Once the like of Brogan, Cluxton, Connolly etc. retire, thing will return to normal once more.
By and large, youse all seem to hate the northern sides with their bloody packed defences, who won't open it and play like the Dubs.
Are you with me so far?
I think the above is a fair representation of general Dublin attitudes and I'm not one bit interested in trading insults with anyone, okay?
How many of you remember the All Ireland semi against Donegal in 2011? Dublin eventually won, 0-08 to 0-06 in what was widely hailed as the most boring game of all time.
This was Colm Keys take on it in the Indo, entitled "Dublin-Donegal 2011 semi-final: The day that shook football's landscape to the core."
Anyone who is a glutton for punishment can read about it here.


According to Mickey Whelan, the Dubs coach,  ""There is no such thing as a right or wrong system. If it works and people buy into it, it can be really effective. We had our own systems."
What for it's worth, I kind of agree with Mickey that the end justifies the means. It's all about winning and a team, Dublin included, will do anything it can to win and stuff the entertainment value.
Dublin has taken a full turn around in the way they play and now Dub supporters despise the tactics used six years ago. Why do you think Dublin has made such a dramatic change to their football philosophy?
Mayo and other western counties seem to moan a lot about how far their players have to travel to train from their home and places of work/study and claim it puts them at a serious disadvantage. Do you agree or disagree?
I'm really curious here. This arises from the last post by The Hill is Blue and I wonder how many Dubs share his views.
Better still, is there a genuine Dublin viewpoint that you compete with other counties on equal terms.
Life is short and I won't respond to abuse but I know the vast majority of Dubs here and elsewhere are sound characters and they most likely have rational opinions on some or all of the above.

Il try and help you, in Bold:

It seems to me that Dubs in general feel annoyed/ perplexed/ resentful or whatever that all outside County Dublin are jealous of the Dubs' success and put it down to jealousy. A classic Dubs v Culchies scenario, if ever there was one - YES, always been the way and happy for it to continue. I remember very clearly the stick directed at Dublin and the fans during the noughties, perhaps coincided with access to the internet and online media. Everyone loved taking the piss out of Dublin, whos laughing now

Seems you think all your recent successes can be put down to the sheer talent of the players, there is nothing else involved. Once the like of Brogan, Cluxton, Connolly etc. retire, thing will return to normal once more. NO - But it is a fear that this is a once off team and once of management team but for the considerable future , Dublin will be there or there abouts but wont win it as much as this decade. Natural talented players, some thanks to their parentage play for Dublin are once offs, Rock, McCarthy, Brogans, McCaffery, naturally gifted Connolly and Cluxton are once offs

By and large, youse all seem to hate the northern sides with their bloody packed defences, who won't open it and play like the Dubs.
Are you with me so far? NO - you play the system that gets you over the line, that was Gilroys philosophy, Gavin changed to an attacking skilful game


I think the above is a fair representation of general Dublin attitudes and I'm not one bit interested in trading insults with anyone, okay?
How many of you remember the All Ireland semi against Donegal in 2011? Dublin eventually won, 0-08 to 0-06 in what was widely hailed as the most boring game of all time.
This was Colm Keys take on it in the Indo, entitled "Dublin-Donegal 2011 semi-final: The day that shook football's landscape to the core."
Anyone who is a glutton for punishment can read about it here.


According to Mickey Whelan, the Dubs coach,  ""There is no such thing as a right or wrong system. If it works and people buy into it, it can be really effective. We had our own systems."
What for it's worth, I kind of agree with Mickey that the end justifies the means. It's all about winning and a team, Dublin included, will do anything it can to win and stuff the entertainment value. - YES - agree, defensive system put in place after 2 humiliating defeats to Kerry and Meath, they said never again, happy enough those tactics were deployed to get over the line, Donegal Dublin, one of the worst games of all time, but as a supporter it was intense.



Dublin has taken a full turn around in the way they play and now Dub supporters despise the tactics used six years ago. Why do you think Dublin has made such a dramatic change to their football philosophy? - Jim Gavin , don't despise the tactics of 6 years ago, it what was required


Mayo and other western counties seem to moan a lot about how far their players have to travel to train from their home and places of work/study and claim it puts them at a serious disadvantage. Do you agree or disagree? - Yes, agree, however see Na Fianna gym winter session, Roscommon booked for 2 nights a week, ways and means but definitely agree but hard to solve or equal it out. Depends on economy, jobs etc. , but not sorry for this, has it not always been the way?

I'm really curious here. This arises from the last post by The Hill is Blue and I wonder how many Dubs share his views.
Better still, is there a genuine Dublin viewpoint that you compete with other counties on equal terms.
Life is short and I won't respond to abuse but I know the vast majority of Dubs here and elsewhere are sound characters and they most likely have rational opinions on some or all of the above. - With  some Dublin do, with some Dublin don't, Dublin always had advantages, being utilised now.

Question for you, Do you blame the final losses in 96/97 or 04/06 or 2012 to Dublin's advantages?

[Tubberman]

Is there talk Rochford hasn't committed to next year?

Said he's going to take month of October to decide - started a new job, has very small kids.

[westbound]

I read this yesterday. Didn't think he was having a go at mayo at all.

I took it that he was trying to prove that the black card is working.
We can agree or disagree with that point of view, but I don't see how it's having a go at mayo?
His point is that if the black card wasn't there, O'Callaghan wouldn't have been let in for this goal (i.e. he'd have been pulled down). 
I think, if he is having a go at anyone, it's at the people who speak out against the black card rule.

His choice of language and use of quotes is terrible.
This argument can be made without any of that mention of Boyle. I don't see how he can make this point without referring to the defender who could have potentially pulled him down? I don't think it's anything personal against Boyle at all, it could have been any defender. The writer is suggesting that the defender would have pulled the attacker down if it wasn't for the black card rule (obviously this is impossible to prove)

The two players used in his example
O'Callaghan, he talks through every move in the goal as if O'Callaghan is a white knight cutting through an army of Orcs. Fair enough, he is very talented and it was a cracking goal. None of that extended description has anything to do with the black card.

Boyle is described as someone 'deliberately and cynically' wishing he had pulled O'Callaghan down only for that black card thought in the back of his mind. There's no basis for this. He refers to his made up example as an 'incident'. This is intentionally negative. He also hides these comment in quotes. I don't know who he is quoting? Are these quotes from different games entirely with different players? These aren't quotes. Quotation marks are (also) used to emphasize different parts of a text or to indicate that a phrase is regarded as slang or jargon

He gets the point of the actual black card out of the way early in the article with

It mattered not to Ciarán Kilkenny, who correctly judged that with seconds left on the clock, the 13 remaining Dubs could suck up whatever a tired Mayo could muster. We'll get back to that.

The actual black card gets a needless positive touch.

This is getting back to Kilkenny

The likelihood is that Kilkenny would have done a quick risk-reward analysis and not committed the foul.

Again a positive position. The writer is explaining here how/why the black card is not perfect. And suggests a way to improve it. He is actually using it as a negative (on the black card), not a positive.

All f this is a big part of the ongoing narrative in Dublin and Kerry dominated football commentary.

I think you are misinterpreting a lot of the points he is making. See my points in bold.

I don't think this piece is anti-mayo/colm Boyle or pro dublin in anyway. It's pro black card in the main, with a suggestion on how to improve it.

[vallankumous]

I think you are misinterpreting a lot of the points he is making. See my points in bold.

I don't think this piece is anti-mayo/colm Boyle or pro dublin in anyway. It's pro black card in the main, with a suggestion on how to improve it.

It's pro black card in the main

I give him more credit than you do. He knew exactly what he was writing.

[Lar Naparka]

I think I've had three reasonable answers to the questions I posed and thanks to those who took the trouble to reply.
The attitude to the negative policies of some, especially northern, counties was my main interest.
It seems all of us believe that the end justifies the means and that whatever it takes to win comes before entertaining anyone. Now, Dub supporters by and large were very critical of Tyrone  and their negative tactics in the semi, forgetting it seems that Mickey &co. were more afraid of losing rather that confident of winning.
They played the way that gave them the best prospect of winning as they couldn't hope to match the Dubs if they went toe to toe. It was a case of damage limitation before the ref threw the ball in. They knew they weren't going to score much but they concentrated on trying to prevent Dublin scoring more than them and feck the spectacle.
I imagine Mayo is the only county that wouldn't go on the back foot when playing Dublin but I may be biased here. However, I don't think so.
@The Greatest.
No, I don't blame the Dubs for Mayo's defeats in any year you care to mention. I wasn't referring to Mayo in any sense. It's just that the Hill is Blue fella always struck me as a reasonable individual but the stuff he came out with in his last post astounded me. Talk about cliches and generalisations!  I get a lot of that stuff in my local alright but I was curious to see how many Dubs would think the way he does.

[Maroon Manc]

Is there talk Rochford hasn't committed to next year?

Said he's going to take month of October to decide - started a new job, has very small kids.

cheers, I'd imagine if SOS, Boyle, Moran & Higgins all give it another go it would be difficult for him to step down.

[The Hill is Blue]

I think I've had three reasonable answers to the questions I posed and thanks to those who took the trouble to reply.
The attitude to the negative policies of some, especially northern, counties was my main interest.
It seems all of us believe that the end justifies the means and that whatever it takes to win comes before entertaining anyone. Now, Dub supporters by and large were very critical of Tyrone  and their negative tactics in the semi, forgetting it seems that Mickey &co. were more afraid of losing rather that confident of winning.
They played the way that gave them the best prospect of winning as they couldn't hope to match the Dubs if they went toe to toe. It was a case of damage limitation before the ref threw the ball in. They knew they weren't going to score much but they concentrated on trying to prevent Dublin scoring more than them and feck the spectacle.
I imagine Mayo is the only county that wouldn't go on the back foot when playing Dublin but I may be biased here. However, I don't think so.
@The Greatest.
No, I don't blame the Dubs for Mayo's defeats in any year you care to mention. I wasn't referring to Mayo in any sense. It's just that the Hill is Blue fella always struck me as a reasonable individual but the stuff he came out with in his last post astounded me. Talk about cliches and generalisations!  I get a lot of that stuff in my local alright but I was curious to see how many Dubs would think the way he does.

Lar, I'm puzzled as to which post of mine you're referring.

[criostlinn]

I think I've had three reasonable answers to the questions I posed and thanks to those who took the trouble to reply.
The attitude to the negative policies of some, especially northern, counties was my main interest.
It seems all of us believe that the end justifies the means and that whatever it takes to win comes before entertaining anyone. Now, Dub supporters by and large were very critical of Tyrone  and their negative tactics in the semi, forgetting it seems that Mickey &co. were more afraid of losing rather that confident of winning.
They played the way that gave them the best prospect of winning as they couldn't hope to match the Dubs if they went toe to toe. It was a case of damage limitation before the ref threw the ball in. They knew they weren't going to score much but they concentrated on trying to prevent Dublin scoring more than them and feck the spectacle.
I imagine Mayo is the only county that wouldn't go on the back foot when playing Dublin but I may be biased here. However, I don't think so.
@The Greatest.
No, I don't blame the Dubs for Mayo's defeats in any year you care to mention. I wasn't referring to Mayo in any sense. It's just that the Hill is Blue fella always struck me as a reasonable individual but the stuff he came out with in his last post astounded me. Talk about cliches and generalisations!  I get a lot of that stuff in my local alright but I was curious to see how many Dubs would think the way he does.

Lar, I'm puzzled as to which post of mine you're referring.

I think he's mixing you up with someone else
Lar, stay with the program. its Hill16 Blues and I wouldn't be really putting much thought into what that jackass say.

[Milltown Row2]

There are some soft centred individuals here... Dublin couldn't get to grips with Mayo in the first half. The goal won the game because they wouldn't have won without it (in my book) as Mayo won most match ups and seemed comfortable, Dublin used their bench well, Mayo didn't, though in fairness I'm not sure if the lads that came off were injured or was it tactics.

Either way Mayo didn't close out the game when it was there for the taking, from a neutral view Mayo ran out of gas and that led to running of ideas and losing the match, the Dub subs made big difference when the chips were down..

As for the ref, no one is ever happy, mainly the losing team gave a huge gripe big I never seen much (in real time from his position) that merited the crap on here. The only thing that was borderline was whether to send the Mayo man of for a straight red, I reckon in a club game that would have been a yellow, but at Croke park 82 thousand watching plus millions on tv you can make a mistake or two

Mayo hopefully will make it back to this place again as they have the guts of a great team

[Wildweasel74]

Still not better than the Kerry team of 75-86, they not finished yet but we see where dublin end up in 3-4yrs, 5 in 7 years is some going but they had to get near Kerry 8 in 11 years to i consider them better than that team

[ballinaman]

There are some soft centred individuals here... Dublin couldn't get to grips with Mayo in the first half. The goal won the game because they wouldn't have won without it (in my book) as Mayo won most match ups and seemed comfortable, Dublin used their bench well, Mayo didn't, though in fairness I'm not sure if the lads that came off were injured or was it tactics.

Either way Mayo didn't close out the game when it was there for the taking, from a neutral view Mayo ran out of gas and that led to running of ideas and losing the match, the Dub subs made big difference when the chips were down..

As for the ref, no one is ever happy, mainly the losing team gave a huge gripe big I never seen much (in real time from his position) that merited the crap on here. The only thing that was borderline was whether to send the Mayo man of for a straight red, I reckon in a club game that would have been a yellow, but at Croke park 82 thousand watching plus millions on tv you can make a mistake or two

Mayo hopefully will make it back to this place again as they have the guts of a great team

Andy Moran was injured when Fitzsimons fell on him when Andy gave Jason Doherty handpass pre Doherty goal chance. Back of his knee started to swell up, he was pointing at him hamstring and couldn't run properly because of the swelling.

Colm Boyle got a nasty dead leg when John Small hit him. Couldn't run.

Line did very well. Aidan O Shea was out of juice (to be expected) may have been better in FF line and Diarmuid O Connor to track McCarthy who was always going to be running hard in last 10 minutes. Fine margins.

Free on stroke of half time was a poor decision by Joe Mc. Dubs collided.

All in all, Vaughan red was biggest self inflicted wound. May still have lost the game but 15 vs 14 would have allowed Clarke to find a man every time and further push on Cluxton....Vaughan as extra man would have been ideal.

If Mayo reach super 8s next year, it'll suit them again re volume of games.

[Wildweasel74]

Seen Redmond crying in the Herald there,about a new low, nearly as low as staying on the pitch after been sent off in a final, the worst action of the game was O`Gara which wasn't mentioned at all, or no mention of Costello throwing away kicking tees, blue blinkers on as always. Alot of ex dublin players like him and Murphy would put you off admiring this great Dublin team.

[Captain Obvious]

If Mayo reach super 8s next year, it'll suit them again re volume of games.

Super 8s next year will suit Tyrone,Mayo,Kerry and Dublin. It won't suit the rest and will more than likely kill any chance of a underdog reaching All Ireland semi final during this "trial" period.