Author Topic: woman dies for want of a abortion  (Read 15715 times)

IolarCoisCuain

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 05:32:05 PM »
Guy Crouchback has already decided that it was the lack of an abortion that caused this poor woman's death according to the title of the thread.
Is he/she suitably medically qualified to make such a judgement from one newspaper report?

I'm not medically qualified to make any decision, and I'm only going on what has been reported throughout the day and on the interviews with the woman's husband. i have started this thread  because this is turning into a massive story that at present is being reported all over Europe and by tomorrow will be world wide.

this story is different because the reason it is a story at all comes back to the failure of politicians to implement  necessary legislation for over twenty years.

according to the woman's husband they were told by a member of the medical staff that a termination was not possible as ireland was a ''catholic contry''. now this may have been said as an expression of exasperation with the status quo or as an explanation of why  the status quo was the way it was.

either way it seems to point at the fact that the reason for not preforming the procedure earlier was not based solely on medical considerations.

The "Catholic country" quote is what makes this story. It contextualises what happened, places it at the centre of the culture war and has extra resonance because this poor woman was Indian.

But it's an unattributed quote. We don't know who said it, when it was said, in what context it was said, nothing. The media have created a storm that will sell many papers but right now we know nothing about what happened other than the fact that a woman has died who need not have died.

Would a termination have saved her? What were the steps that were taken to save her? What steps weren't taken? I am fairly sure that these decisions between the life the fetus and the life of the mother are made all the time in difficult pregnancies. Naive to think they're not. This was one that went wrong and we don't yet know why it went wrong. But not everyone wants to know why it went wrong, because could waste a potentially excellent weapon in the culture war.

Once this snowball gets rolling it could bring the government down, with fissure developing in both parties. Amazing to think it, but very far from impossible.

cadence

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 05:48:21 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11342247

2010, breach of human right to private life, new legislation and/or guidelines recommended back then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history

http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensenews/2012/08/27/abortion-law-decisions-coming-to-catholic-ireland/

executive summary of the 2010 case which outlined the lack of legislation and/or guidelines...

A,B,C v Ireland (application no: 25579/05) Grand Chamber 16/12/2010

Executive Summary                                                                                                                      In Irish law, abortion is prohibited under sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861. Under Article 40.3.3 of the Irish Constitution the State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees to respect the mother in national laws. In the X case in 1992, the Supreme Court held that abortion was lawful in Ireland, if there was a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother. No legislation regulating that right was ever enacted, a fact regretted by the Supreme Court in its 1992 Judgment.

A and B travelled to the United Kingdom for abortions for reasons of health and/ or wellbeing. C who was in remission from cancer, argued before the Court that, although she believed her pregnancy put her life at risk, there was no procedure by which she could have established whether she qualified for a lawful abortion in Ireland on grounds of the risk to her life. She therefore travelled to the UK for an abortion. All three applicants claimed that the restriction on abortion in Ireland violated their right to respect for their private life under Article 8 of the ECHR.

With regard to the first and second applicants, A and B, the Court observed that the consensus  which existed among the majority of the members States of the Council of Europe allowing broader access to abortion than under Irish law was not sufficient to narrow the broad “margin of appreciation” which the State enjoyed on the issue of abortion.
Having regard to the constitutionally protected right to travel and the availability of appropriate pre- and post-abortion medical care in Ireland, as well as to the fact that the impugned prohibition in Ireland on abortion for health or well-being reasons was based on the moral values of the Irish people the Court concluded that, the existing prohibition on abortion in Ireland struck a fair balance between the right of A and B to respect for their private lives and the rights invoked on behalf of the unborn.
The Court thus found that there had been no violation of Article 8 of the ECHR by eleven votes to six.
With regard to C, the Court considered that the establishment of any risk to her life concerned essential aspects of her right to respect for her private life. The only non-judicial means existing in Ireland for determining such a risk, the ordinary medical consultation between a woman and her doctor, was deemed to be ineffective by the Court. The uncertainty surrounding such a process was influenced by the criminal provisions of the 1861 Act which put both doctors and women in fear of possible criminal prosecution. Recourse to the constitutional courts was also deemed ineffective, as the courts were not appropriate for the primary determination of whether a woman qualified for a lawful abortion. It was likewise inappropriate to ask women to pursue such complex constitutional proceedings when their right to have an abortion if pregnancy posed a threat to their life was not disputed. In any event, it was unclear how the courts were to enforce any mandatory order requiring doctors to carry out an abortion, given the lack of clear information from the Government to the Court as regards lawful abortions currently carried out in Ireland.
The Court concluded that existing procedures where ineffective to allow C to establish her right to a lawful abortion in Ireland given the risk to her life. Moreover, there was no explanation why the existing constitutional right had not been implemented to date despite recognition that further legal clarity was required. The Court thus concluded unanimously that Ireland had breached C’s right under Article 8 given the State’s failure to secure effective respect for her private life by reason of the absence of any implementing legislative or regulatory regime providing an accessible and effective procedure by which she could have established whether she qualified for a lawful abortion in Ireland.






seafoid

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 05:50:31 PM »
Guy Crouchback has already decided that it was the lack of an abortion that caused this poor woman's death according to the title of the thread.
Is he/she suitably medically qualified to make such a judgement from one newspaper report?

I'm not medically qualified to make any decision, and I'm only going on what has been reported throughout the day and on the interviews with the woman's husband. i have started this thread  because this is turning into a massive story that at present is being reported all over Europe and by tomorrow will be world wide.

this story is different because the reason it is a story at all comes back to the failure of politicians to implement  necessary legislation for over twenty years.

according to the woman's husband they were told by a member of the medical staff that a termination was not possible as ireland was a ''catholic contry''. now this may have been said as an expression of exasperation with the status quo or as an explanation of why  the status quo was the way it was.

either way it seems to point at the fact that the reason for not preforming the procedure earlier was not based solely on medical considerations.

The "Catholic country" quote is what makes this story. It contextualises what happened, places it at the centre of the culture war and has extra resonance because this poor woman was Indian.

But it's an unattributed quote. We don't know who said it, when it was said, in what context it was said, nothing. The media have created a storm that will sell many papers but right now we know nothing about what happened other than the fact that a woman has died who need not have died.

Would a termination have saved her? What were the steps that were taken to save her? What steps weren't taken? I am fairly sure that these decisions between the life the fetus and the life of the mother are made all the time in difficult pregnancies. Naive to think they're not. This was one that went wrong and we don't yet know why it went wrong. But not everyone wants to know why it went wrong, because could waste a potentially excellent weapon in the culture war.

Once this snowball gets rolling it could bring the government down, with fissure developing in both parties. Amazing to think it, but very far from impossible.
I'd say "this is a catholic country" was said sarcastically by whoever.

Irish abortion policy is a joke. It takes a tragedy like this to show it up for what it is.
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

seafoid

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 05:52:45 PM »
Guy Crouchback has already decided that it was the lack of an abortion that caused this poor woman's death according to the title of the thread.
Is he/she suitably medically qualified to make such a judgement from one newspaper report?
The poor woman must have been under tremendous stress for the 3 days they wouldn't help her.
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

Maguire01

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2012, 05:59:42 PM »
If nothing else, this refutes the argument that abortion is a 'black and white issue', as some suggested on the Marie Stopes thread.

It's a very sad case.

Maguire01

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2012, 06:04:09 PM »
i don't necessarily blame the medical persona involved although a lot of questions have to be answered ,this is ultimately a complete failure of our political class to take any sort of responsibility for hard decisions that had to be made

I would hold fire on that as it's my understanding they should have done a D&C if the mothers life was at risk - maybe that's different in the south? Either way Kenny's response to Adams in the Dáil this morning was shameful.
Why? What did he say?

cadence

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-law-woman-death

The case of a woman denied an abortion at an Irish hospital who later died of blood poisoning must prompt the state to loosen its almost total ban on terminations, a member of one of the coalition parties in Dublin has said.

Two investigations – one by Ireland's health executive, the other by the hospital – are now under way into the circumstances of the death of the 31-year-old dentist at University Hospital Galway (UHG) who was denied a medical termination and allegedly told: "This is a Catholic country."

Savita Halappanavar's death has highlighted how the ban even can prevent women with life-threatening medical conditions getting an abortion in Irish hospitals.

She had turned up at UHG on 21 October and was found to be miscarrying but died of septicaemia a week later. She had asked medical staff several times over a three-day period to terminate the pregnancy.

An Irish Labour deputy in the Dáil, Patrick Nulty, said that in light of Halappanavar's death there was "pressing and urgent need" for parliament to "show responsibility and legislate", calling on his party and its Fine Gael partners to press ahead with reforming the abortion law.

It is understood her family is now considering taking legal action, arguing that the foetus should have been removed earlier to save the woman's life.

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar, said her repeated requests were turned down because she was 17 weeks pregnant and staff could detect a foetal heartbeat. The 34-year-old engineer has since revealed that his wife spent two and a half days "in agony" until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

After the dead foetus was removed, he said, his wife was taken to the hospital's intensive care unit where she died on 28 October.

Recounting her final days in UHG, he said: "Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said: 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything.'

"Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [an Indian Hindu] said: 'I am neither Irish nor Catholic,' but they said there was nothing they could do.

"That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took blood and started her on antibiotics.

"The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn't."

He recollected the moment he heard that medical staff were moving his wife into intensive care.

"They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren't functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her."

The hospital said it could not discuss the details of an individual patient with the media but expressed its sympathy to the family.

A spokesman for the hospital, which is part of a group of medical centres in western Ireland, said: "Galway Roscommon University Hospitals Group (GRUHG) co-operates fully with coroners' inquests. In general, in the case of a maternal death, a number of procedures are followed, including a risk review of the case and the completion of a maternal death notification form.

"External experts are involved in the review and the family of the deceased are consulted on the terms of reference, are interviewed by the review team and given a copy of the final report."

The taoiseach, Enda Kenny, said he would not be rushed into any measures while the two independent inquiries were under way.

His health minister, James Reilly, is understood to have received a report meanwhile from a group of experts exploring the possibility of reforming Ireland's abortion laws. Women who have had terminations in England for medical reasons called on Reilly on Wednesday to publish the findings as soon as possible in the light of Savita Halappanavar's death.

"I think it would be only appropriate that the two investigations that are being carried out here are concluded," Kenny said.

At present the coalition government is preparing a report on possible legal reforms of abortion legislation in the light of a European court ruling in 2009 that declared the absolute ban to be a breach of women's human rights.

Nulty, TD for Dublin West, said: "The heartbreaking tragedy of the death of Savita Praveen Halappanavar is something which should cause every citizen in our republic to pause and reflect."

He added that the government should no longer "hide behind reports and delay tactics. It must act to protect women and their health. This issue cannot be swept aside and ignored as successive governments have done."

Intervention by the European court of human rights has forced Ireland to make some minimal changes to its abortion ban. Since the 1992 X case, in which a 14-year-old rape victim took on the state's ban not only on her having a termination in Ireland but also on her travelling abroad for an abortion, there have been some exceptional circumstances.

Since Europe ruled that there was a risk to the child's life if she was forced to go ahead with the pregnancy, guidelines have been set down on these rare and exceptional cases.

Ireland's Medical Council guidelines state that "abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother".

It adds: "Under current legal precedent, this exception includes where there is a clear and substantial risk to the life of the mother arising from a threat of suicide."

The guidance also informs doctors that they "should undertake a full assessment of any such risk in light of the clinical research on this issue".

And it advises that "rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy) is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving.

"In these exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while making every effort to preserve the life of the baby."

However, such decisions are often left to the discretion of individual doctors and their medical teams. The pressure group Terminations for Medical Reasons Ireland, which campaigns for women whose babies would die if they went full term into their pregnancies, points out that in many cases some Irish doctors will not even advise women on their rights to travel abroad for abortions, let alone recommend emergency terminations in Ireland.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

current situation seems full of holes. medical guidelines/guidance, doesn't overturn existing legislation. the current statute wins out over any guidance in this situation does it not?

having legislation to allow a termination when there is a risk to the life of the mother presents problems too, that law will be have to be interpreted and tested and have caselaw to clarify it, as all acts do, leaving the way open for more situations where there is uncertainty i'd have thought.

+ the above article makes a good point.... doctor's have politics too, how can hitherto checks and balances, statute or otherwise, make sure that decisions of this nature are taken in an unbiased way happen? it's such a divisive issue in ireland that it will be a problem preventing bias entering into the process.

that's the problem with democracy though. the popularist majority vote can be oppressive and need the law, in this case the ECHR, to even things up a bit to tell governments what they need to do. deserving of much contempt are the irish administrations that have dragged their heels on this one. perhaps those administrations thought that it wouldn't happen on their watch.

are there any repercussions for not acting upon the ECHR's ruling i wonder?

 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:50:09 PM by cadence »

midLouth

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2012, 07:51:04 PM »
I saw that comment tweeted by Ricky Gervais about the Catholic country, I don't know why that was ever even published, from my understanding, and only knowing what was printed in the Irish Times, the issue very much centers around legislation in this country as opposed to any particular faith. No govt has had the guts to bring in legislation after the X case even though the constitution allows for it. Being a Catholic country had nothing to do with it IMO.

seafoid

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2012, 07:57:09 PM »
I saw that comment tweeted by Ricky Gervais about the Catholic country, I don't know why that was ever even published, from my understanding, and only knowing what was printed in the Irish Times, the issue very much centers around legislation in this country as opposed to any particular faith. No govt has had the guts to bring in legislation after the X case even though the constitution allows for it. Being a Catholic country had nothing to do with it IMO.
Nothing to do with the catholic church. Impossible. You don't have bishops writing in the papers about Ireland being the safest place to have a child or anything. Say yesterday, for example. 
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

Ulick

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2012, 07:58:09 PM »
Denials coming now that the "Catholic country" comment was ever made. Also that there were underlying health problems was cast doubt on claims that "want of an abortion" was the cause of death.

seafoid

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 08:02:19 PM »
Denials coming now that the "Catholic country" comment was ever made. Also that there were underlying health problems was cast doubt on claims that "want of an abortion" was the cause of death.
I can't see this being spun, Ulick.
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IolarCoisCuain

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 08:16:06 PM »
Denials coming now that the "Catholic country" comment was ever made. Also that there were underlying health problems was cast doubt on claims that "want of an abortion" was the cause of death.
I can't see this being spun, Ulick.

It's been spinning since last night old stock. This debate is won - all the media outlets who splashed with "Ireland's Taliban" stories won't splash with clarifications if this turns out not to have been the case. Sometimes getting in first is all that matters.

cadence

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 08:16:53 PM »
I saw that comment tweeted by Ricky Gervais about the Catholic country, I don't know why that was ever even published, from my understanding, and only knowing what was printed in the Irish Times, the issue very much centers around legislation in this country as opposed to any particular faith. No govt has had the guts to bring in legislation after the X case even though the constitution allows for it. Being a Catholic country had nothing to do with it IMO.

governments are popularist + majority catholic country. i'm really struggling to see the connection here. someone please help me out!!!

cadence

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 08:27:06 PM »
Denials coming now that the "Catholic country" comment was ever made. Also that there were underlying health problems was cast doubt on claims that "want of an abortion" was the cause of death.
I can't see this being spun, Ulick.

It's been spinning since last night old stock. This debate is won - all the media outlets who splashed with "Ireland's Taliban" stories won't splash with clarifications if this turns out not to have been the case. Sometimes getting in first is all that matters.

the 'catholic country' quote originated from the husband did it not and his story is the one that resonates truthfully. hospital/health authority commenting prior to an investigation of what went on is just spin. distasteful spin mind. what i mean is i can't see them spinning their way out of it. it's too big a story. too scandalous. will have to be investigated independently. health authority can't be anywhere near this. how it can be truly independent when government is accountable too is anyone's guess. a mess.   
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:30:24 PM by cadence »

midLouth

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Re: woman dies for want of a abortion
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 08:27:57 PM »
I saw that comment tweeted by Ricky Gervais about the Catholic country, I don't know why that was ever even published, from my understanding, and only knowing what was printed in the Irish Times, the issue very much centers around legislation in this country as opposed to any particular faith. No govt has had the guts to bring in legislation after the X case even though the constitution allows for it. Being a Catholic country had nothing to do with it IMO.
Nothing to do with the catholic church. Impossible. You don't have bishops writing in the papers about Ireland being the safest place to have a child or anything. Say yesterday, for example.

Govt shortcomings not bringing in legislation.