woman dies for want of a abortion

[Billys Boots]

Here we go.

You said it my man.

My only comment on this thread will be this and firstly on the "abortion on demand" term. It's a misleading and disingenuous term. No one is queueing up going "happy days....I'll be back soon for another one". This is a bad option all round. It's a horrific decision that some ladies and girls face and they opt for the least worst option.

Secondly. comments like some just before this that reduce the discussion to a black and white issue display either (a) a lack of intellect, (b) a lack of understanding of the issue or (c) and unwillingness to understand the complexities. My advice to anyone would be - don't listen to these types of arguments from any side.

Good man Seanie, well said. 

[laoislad]

Here we go.

You said it my man.

My only comment on this thread will be this and firstly on the "abortion on demand" term. It's a misleading and disingenuous term. No one is queueing up going "happy days....I'll be back soon for another one". This is a bad option all round. It's a horrific decision that some ladies and girls face and they opt for the least worst option.

Fair enough seanie when you put it like that I can see I used the wrong phrase as I obviously don't think that either.

[TheOptimist]

A few points.

1) We had a scare when my wife was in the very early stage of pregnancy with my second child, we thought we may have lost him so had to go for an internal scan. Thankfully, there he was, all 9.7mm of him with his wee heart beating away. I am not religious, but to me a life starts at conception and that was the first glimpse of my now two year old. I understand the pro choice argument but it doesn't sit well with me that the child gets no choice. We do not have a referendum in the north obviously, but I am not sure which way I would vote if we did. The fear would be the abuse of abortion, but maybe that is irrational as some have noted above.

2) I think EUTHANASIA is actually a much bigger issue that needs debated more in society. Where is the pro choice lobby here? My father is 61 years old and has been suffering from Alzheimer's for 6 or 7 years. I use the word suffering purposely here as that is what he is going through. I am not saying that I think he should be Euthanised but he should have at least had the choice when he was compus mentis. I know for sure if it were me the decision I would make. If a dog, or cat, or horse is suffering we put it "out of its misery". A human has to live through the misery.

[trueblue1234]

No one is queueing up going "happy days....I'll be back soon for another one". This is a bad option all round. It's a horrific decision that some ladies and girls face and they opt for the least worst option.

That argument however, is frequently made, including on this board. "It'll just be another form of contraception" etc. because, you know there's simply a gaggle of people out there who will ignore contraception because they have the option of a physically and psychologically traumatic procedure available to them.

Secondly. comments like some just before this that reduce the discussion to a black and white issue display either (a) a lack of intellect, (b) a lack of understanding of the issue or (c) and unwillingness to understand the complexities. My advice to anyone would be - don't listen to these types of arguments from any side.

A failing of the internet.

It's an emotive subject. I don't think it's a case that people who are against it believe people will ignore contraception. But the has to be a realisation that with unprotected sex there is the possibility of pregnancy and some people will view that as being the start of another life. Hence they don't see that as just being the decision for the mother anymore and I would kind of be in agreement that there does need to be something there to protect the rights of the unborn child. That said it's hard to know where to draw the line on what would justify an abortion. Medical grounds, rape etc all throw up reasons why an abortion should be considered and various gray areas that will be considered.

[AQMP]

Abortion on demand is such a pejorative description compared to giving a woman the right to choose. Always a red flag to me when I read so called impartial posts on the discussion.

Four more months of:

Abortion on demand is such a pejorative description compared to giving a woman the right to choose. Always a red flag to me when I read so called impartial posts on the discussion.
v.
Giving a woman the right to choose is such an anodyne description compared to abortion on demand.  Always a red flag to me when I read so called impartial posts on the discussion....

I don't have a vote (buíochas le Dia), so I'm outta here.

[The Gs Man]

What about the morning after-pill?

Should it be banned?

[AQMP]

What about the morning after-pill?

Should it be banned?

We're not allowing whataboutery here G's Man

[Rois]

What about the morning after-pill?

Should it be banned?

Interesting question - the morning after pill does not cause abortion.  It prevents conception.  If a woman becomes pregnant, the morning after pill will not stop the pregnancy.  So the moment of conception argument is irrelevant here. 

[Puckoon]

What about the morning after-pill?

Should it be banned?

Interesting question - the morning after pill does not cause abortion.  It prevents conception.  If a woman becomes pregnant, the morning after pill will not stop the pregnancy.  So the moment of conception argument is irrelevant here.

Not all, and not always in regards to MOA. There are pills which prevent the fertilized egg from embedding in the uterus.

Conception argument back in play.

[Rois]

Ok - can't argue.  I read an article recently (in Marie Claire rather than the Lancet) that gave me my tuppenceworth on emergency contraception so on that basis, i'll bow out too as I clearly know nothing. 

[J70]

Does a fertilized egg = a human life?
Does a fertilized egg = an embryo?

I don't know where to draw the line.

I do know that I suffer no guilt for the various times my wife and I (and myself and earlier girlfriends) relied on the morning after pill, but I'm pretty sure that I would have major issues with an abortion.

One is the prevention of implantation of a single-cell which may or may not exist. The other is the death of a developing baby you do know exists.

Whatever the philosophical arguments, I perceive there to be a big difference between a single cell (or even a multi-cell blastula) and a growing embryo or foetus. Not saying I can logically defend it to the nth (or even the first or second) degree, but I can sleep at night.

[Puckoon]

Does a fertilized egg = a human life?
Does a fertilized egg = an embryo?

I don't know where to draw the line.

There are incredible complexities when discussing the "moment of conception". It's on a par with big bang and evolution. Some people/couples cant have children because they cannot complete the fertilization step. Some folks can fertilize - but not embed. Some can get as far as embedding but not maintain "the pregnancy". This can be impacted by the anatomy, physiology, endocrine systems (add on as appropriate) of the individuals and couples. Abortion will remain a 3rd rail subject for a long time, and my personal opinions don't lend themselves to generalizing the right and wrong of abortion. How abortion is used in each situation would be point where I'd have an opinion on the philosophy of it being right, or wrong.

What I do fully believe however is that in my lifetime, the philosophical dancing around abortion will cease to matter and it will be come a legally available procedure in Ireland. It may not be this vote, but I believe it will happen. You'll never know if someone you know/love/are related to has taken this course of action, and you'll never know what led them to that decision. You may already not know. Life (wish there was a better phrase), as we know it outside of the body - will go on.

[Milltown Row2]

Interesting that on here the vast majority are anti abortion are men, which for me is an unbalanced view, men wont be carrying children nor (in most cases where the child is concieved through a one night stand or at worst through rape) will they be bringing that child up...

It is left to the mother to give up a huge chuck of her life, for an accident of, the pill not working, forgetting to take it, condom breaking or being pissed drunk and having a one nighter or the worst, sex against her wishes..

I'm totally on the fence here, be very easy to say no or yes if you have had no experience of this, having a child when you are early 20's or teens and not married brings on lots of different problems... Hopefully that never happens to my daughters and they wont have to deal with that choice..

Not everything is black and white, Pro life Pro choice have to accept that there are reasons for and reasons against abortion

[seafoid]

Interesting that on here the vast majority are anti abortion are men, which for me is an unbalanced view, men wont be carrying children nor (in most cases where the child is concieved through a one night stand or at worst through rape) will they be bringing that child up...

It is left to the mother to give up a huge chuck of her life, for an accident of, the pill not working, forgetting to take it, condom breaking or being pissed drunk and having a one nighter or the worst, sex against her wishes..

I'm totally on the fence here, be very easy to say no or yes if you have had no experience of this, having a child when you are early 20's or teens and not married brings on lots of different problems... Hopefully that never happens to my daughters and they wont have to deal with that choice..

Not everything is black and white, Pro life Pro choice have to accept that there are reasons for and reasons against abortion

I was thinking the same thing . Far too many women are left on their own bringing up.kids.
The current system is broken. Human relationships are very messy and health can be fragile.
There is no perfect solution.

[gallsman]

I can't remember who it was on Question Time in Belfast a couple of months ago, but they took issue with the use of the phrase "Pro Life" and suggested that "Pro Birth" would be more appropriate.