woman dies for want of a abortion

[armaghniac]

Smokers injure their own life, now that they are largely prevented from smoking in the presence of normal people.

[omaghjoe]

Society is weird . 20 year old men are allowed drive cars and thinki nothing or doing so while drunk.  Cheap Alcohol is
is freely available. A lot of food is poisoned with sugar and salt. Smoking is taxed for the benefit of society even though it results in almost certain early death.  The environment is collapsing. and we lecture women about the sanctity of life.

The rest of your false analogies aside I am always perplexed and amused as to how you try and relate point you are trying to make to this.

[omaghjoe]

Interesting that this has gone down the "consciousness" / "bunch of cells"  route. Myself and Eamon had a brief discussion on the Death thread about this.

As Eamon pointed out we are all just a bunch of cells, and ultimately atoms, so if you adhere to the materialist school of thought, which is prevailing feeling among the scientific community, then the only logical conclusion is that consciousness is merely an illusion and therefore not real. So in the context of this discussion if that's your position consciousness should be irrelevant to your reasoning.

However it seems that for consciousness to be "real"  the only way we could rationalise is that we are made up something else besides the cells/atoms/quarks/matter. The only time that something else could be added to the bunch of cells in the womb is at the moment of conception, there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Unless you want to open the door onto when that bunch of cells becomes self aware, which is sometime in the first year post partum I would imagine, or perhaps forms permanent memories, which would be sometime in the second year.

[Applesisapples]

For all the pro choice and pro abortion posters on here, I would be interested in your opinions regarding the rights of the life growing inside the mother.

None of you seem to give any consideration to this life.

In the case of rape, why would killing the child be an acceptable reason to end a healthy life?

I am not pro abortion, but words like "killing the child" are inaccurate and unhelpful. I don't believe that a child conceived in most circumstances should not be removed as an inconvenience. I do however believe that victims of rape or where the life of a woman is at risk or where the child will not survive should be afforded the choice. There are enough forms of contraception available today that outside of rape conception should always be planned. That said I have sympathy for and wouldn't judge women who choose abortion because they can't see any other option. The support is not there in many cases to help women in desperate circumstances and I don't believe we can judge. All the emotive language and pressure being piled on by the likes of Bernie Smyth and the pro life brigade actually is counter productive and certainly not in keeping with the Christianity they profess. In relation to the young woman prosecuted recently, it is shameful that she was prosecuted when she obviously was in a distressful situation and as for those calling for jail time well...

What I am trying to articulate is that those are my personal views and I should force them on others.

[muppet]

Interesting that this has gone down the "consciousness" / "bunch of cells"  route. Myself and Eamon had a brief discussion on the Death thread about this.

As Eamon pointed out we are all just a bunch of cells, and ultimately atoms, so if you adhere to the materialist school of thought, which is prevailing feeling among the scientific community, then the only logical conclusion is that consciousness is merely an illusion and therefore not real. So in the context of this discussion if that's your position consciousness should be irrelevant to your reasoning.

However it seems that for consciousness to be "real"  the only way we could rationalise is that we are made up something else besides the cells/atoms/quarks/matter. The only time that something else could be added to the bunch of cells in the womb is at the moment of conception, there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Unless you want to open the door onto when that bunch of cells becomes self aware, which is sometime in the first year post partum I would imagine, or perhaps forms permanent memories, which would be sometime in the second year.

Consciousness is scientifically defined, even if we don't know that much about it, but it is certainly real. For example, see the medical definition of unconscious for evidence of that: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/unconsciousness

[armaghniac]

Consciousness is scientifically defined, even if we don't know that much about it, but it is certainly real. For example, see the medical definition of unconscious for evidence of that: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/unconsciousness

So if I become unconscious, is it OK to kill me?

[seafoid]

Society is weird . 20 year old men are allowed drive cars and thinki nothing or doing so while drunk.  Cheap Alcohol is
is freely available. A lot of food is poisoned with sugar and salt. Smoking is taxed for the benefit of society even though it results in almost certain early death.  The environment is collapsing. and we lecture women about the sanctity of life.

The rest of your false analogies aside I am always perplexed and amused as to how you try and relate point you are trying to make to this.

Climate change already costs the US economy 2% of gdp per annum

[omaghjoe]

Interesting that this has gone down the "consciousness" / "bunch of cells"  route. Myself and Eamon had a brief discussion on the Death thread about this.

As Eamon pointed out we are all just a bunch of cells, and ultimately atoms, so if you adhere to the materialist school of thought, which is prevailing feeling among the scientific community, then the only logical conclusion is that consciousness is merely an illusion and therefore not real. So in the context of this discussion if that's your position consciousness should be irrelevant to your reasoning.

However it seems that for consciousness to be "real"  the only way we could rationalise is that we are made up something else besides the cells/atoms/quarks/matter. The only time that something else could be added to the bunch of cells in the womb is at the moment of conception, there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Unless you want to open the door onto when that bunch of cells becomes self aware, which is sometime in the first year post partum I would imagine, or perhaps forms permanent memories, which would be sometime in the second year.

Consciousness is scientifically defined, even if we don't know that much about it, but it is certainly real. For example, see the medical definition of unconscious for evidence of that: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/unconsciousness

Consciousness is defined, although not really scientifically, if it did, like all other matter it should fit into the standard model, but it doesn't. Its the experience of knowing that you exist and your environment exists, science uses the experience within it to tell us about the world, but it has no clue what it is, in fact its a kind of a circular reasoning for science to try and define it when you think about it.
The materialist and naturalist school of thought would say its just an illusion of natural processes taking place, similar to the free will illusion.
Medical definition of consciousness is only a measurement of degree of consciousness, a measurement of selected symptoms of consciousness that we all know we experience when conscious, however thats as far as it goes, neurology for example goes all little deeper but really it is no closer to it defining it, even those in a coma have a degree of consciousness as they are often still a having experience within it.
 

[omaghjoe]

Society is weird . 20 year old men are allowed drive cars and thinki nothing or doing so while drunk.  Cheap Alcohol is
is freely available. A lot of food is poisoned with sugar and salt. Smoking is taxed for the benefit of society even though it results in almost certain early death.  The environment is collapsing. and we lecture women about the sanctity of life.

The rest of your false analogies aside I am always perplexed and amused as to how you try and relate point you are trying to make to this.

Climate change already costs the US economy 2% of gdp per annum

I am all ears how thats relevant

[seafoid]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/i-wont-engage-in-any-debate-against-my-own-party-martin-says-abortion-stance-not-a-party-political-issue-36506717.html

The Fianna Fail leader also said that Eighth Amendment does not prevent Irish women from having abortion.

"Nobody can dispute the fact that thousands of Irish women have an abortion every year", he told the Dail.

He said these operations caused "deep trauma" and were "hidden" and could therefore have a significant impact on health and well-being on women.

The Cork South Central TD admitted that up until now he has been on record as being against abortion but his position has since evolved.

"Over the years I have been on the record as being against a significant change in our abortion laws.  I have done so from a belief that this was the most effective way of affirming the importance of the unborn" , he told the Dail.

But "if the facts become clearer, if we come to understand properly the impact of a policy on others, then we must be willing to act accordingly", he said.

Mr Martin said the reality of the situation is that "the Eighth Amendment does not mean that Ireland is a country without abortion."

"Retaining the Eighth Amendment will not make Ireland a country without abortion."

"Nothing we say or do here could make Ireland a country without abortion."

The Fianna Fail leader said "without constitutional change" it is not possible to address the trauma faced by families who receive a fatal fetal abnormality diagnosis.

"If a family is told of a fatal abnormality during a pregnancy the law, as it stands and as it is required to be under the Eighth amendment, says that they can do nothing" he said.

"Under threat of a criminal sentence they must carry the pregnancy to its term irrespective of the potentially devastating impact it will have", he said.

"I believe we should make provision for cases of fatal foetal abnormality and serious threats to the health of the mother."

[The Iceman]

Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

[J70]

And when the mother's life is in danger?

[The Iceman]

These are rare cases J70. I think on the last count they make up 3% of abortions whereas over 90% are for social reasons - just a delayed contraceptive....
In these instances you have to consider both lives and a doctor faced with one of these rare cases should do all they can to preserve the life of the mother and the child where possible. The family and the doctor would have to work together to determine the outcomes of any treatments required to save the mother, what her chances of survival were versus that of the child and make a decision in good conscience.  If their intent is to save the mother and there is a chance to do so and the death of the baby is a byproduct - not an intent - then regrettably I would accept that with a heavy heart.

But you can't take rare cases and use that to open the door for social abortion. It's not how life works.

[gallsman]

Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

Why should anyone give a flying f**k what the doctor or nurse thinks? It's not their body.

[AQMP]

Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

Why should anyone give a flying f**k what the doctor or nurse thinks? It's not their body.

Would you intervene if you saw a woman self-harming or about to jump from a bridge?