The Race for the ARAS.....

[sheamy]

Eamon Gilmore was in Official Sinn Fein in the mid '70's

There's a whole thread of stuff could be discussed there. The failure of the media to investigate his links to Official Sinn Fein, later Worker's party and what their mates in the Official IRA were doing from the mid-70's onwards. Perhaps the sticky infiltration of the media has something to do with it. Have a read of 'The Lost Revolution' by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar. It's far from pro SF but wil give you a great insight into much of the media treatment of McGuinness.

[muppet]

Thank-you for the google tip muppet. I made an error but the central theme of what I was saying still stands. There was an elite society of businessmen and bankers who colluded with politicians from FF, FG and the PDs to run the country for themselves. As long as the stamp duty kept rolling in, the middle classes and their politicians didn't care.

The central theme of what you were saying also bombs your 'SF are outside the cozy cartel' argument.

Golf fundraisers with developers are seen as grubby nowadays, fair enough, how do you think bank robberies as fundraisers look?

[sheamy]

Thank-you for the google tip muppet. I made an error but the central theme of what I was saying still stands. There was an elite society of businessmen and bankers who colluded with politicians from FF, FG and the PDs to run the country for themselves. As long as the stamp duty kept rolling in, the middle classes and their politicians didn't care.

The central theme of what you were saying also bombs your 'SF are outside the cozy cartel' argument.

Golf fundraisers with developers are seen as grubby nowadays, fair enough, how do you think bank robberies as fundraisers look?

The golf fundraisers were last year! To fundraise for the election campaign of the current largest government party. And these people are now some of the biggest players in NAMA. You couldn't make it up. And it not just that it is 'seen as grubby...', it is corruption and I cannot believe that it still went on in 2010 with the individuals involved, and all that was known at that point. It's incredible. Are we afraid to ask the question or what? This is Fianna Fail with a different logo.

On my central point, I don't think anyone here could in their wildest dreams call SF an establishment party (loose definition I know). They typically represent lower income families and with every day are picking up more disenfranchised voters who are dismayed at the state of politics in the country. There's weren't many benefits to be had of the stamp duty and rising property prices among those consistuencies. I don't see how you regard that as a problem statement. Sure this kind of line is trotted out on most media programmes week after week.

[muppet]

Thank-you for the google tip muppet. I made an error but the central theme of what I was saying still stands. There was an elite society of businessmen and bankers who colluded with politicians from FF, FG and the PDs to run the country for themselves. As long as the stamp duty kept rolling in, the middle classes and their politicians didn't care.

The central theme of what you were saying also bombs your 'SF are outside the cozy cartel' argument.

Golf fundraisers with developers are seen as grubby nowadays, fair enough, how do you think bank robberies as fundraisers look?

The golf fundraisers were last year! To fundraise for the election campaign of the current largest government party. And these people are now some of the biggest players in NAMA. You couldn't make it up. And it not just that it is 'seen as grubby...', it is corruption and I cannot believe that it still went on in 2010 with the individuals involved, and all that was known at that point. It's incredible. Are we afraid to ask the question or what? This is Fianna Fail with a different logo.

On my central point, I don't think anyone here could in their wildest dreams call SF an establishment party (loose definition I know). They typically represent lower income families and with every day are picking up more disenfranchised voters who are dismayed at the state of politics in the country. There's weren't many benefits to be had of the stamp duty and rising property prices among those consistuencies. I don't see how you regard that as a problem statement. Sure this kind of line is trotted out on most media programmes week after week.

Tell me this, how is a fundraiser taking money corruption? You do realise there are other criteria to be met to make it corruption?? Just because some of the people involved were from the despicable Irish Construction Federation doesn't make it corruption. Back to Google again.

Now as for SF. My problem with you and a couple of others here is your constant pointing out of obvious problems regarding cronyism and misbehavior in the South while presenting SF as a bastion of purity. The hypocrisy is simply staggering. Another matter that smells strange is the one of SF TDs only getting the minimum wage and giving the rest to SF. The maximum donation one can give to a political party is around €6,000. Do they declare the rest of the money or what exactly happens it?

Personally, as I said during the GE, I would get rid of the lot of them, FG and SF included.

[Declan]

Another matter that smells strange is the one of SF TDs only getting the minimum wage and giving the rest to SF

One of the things that struck me about this, and Joe Higgins and RBB do it as well I think, is that these salaries are paid out of the public purse so is there a case for saying if they want to take the average ind wage then the rest should be given back to the exchequer and not to their parties

[Tubberman]

Thank-you for the google tip muppet. I made an error but the central theme of what I was saying still stands. There was an elite society of businessmen and bankers who colluded with politicians from FF, FG and the PDs to run the country for themselves. As long as the stamp duty kept rolling in, the middle classes and their politicians didn't care.

The central theme of what you were saying also bombs your 'SF are outside the cozy cartel' argument.

Golf fundraisers with developers are seen as grubby nowadays, fair enough, how do you think bank robberies as fundraisers look?

The golf fundraisers were last year! To fundraise for the election campaign of the current largest government party. And these people are now some of the biggest players in NAMA. You couldn't make it up. And it not just that it is 'seen as grubby...', it is corruption and I cannot believe that it still went on in 2010 with the individuals involved, and all that was known at that point. It's incredible. Are we afraid to ask the question or what? This is Fianna Fail with a different logo.

On my central point, I don't think anyone here could in their wildest dreams call SF an establishment party (loose definition I know). They typically represent lower income families and with every day are picking up more disenfranchised voters who are dismayed at the state of politics in the country. There's weren't many benefits to be had of the stamp duty and rising property prices among those consistuencies. I don't see how you regard that as a problem statement. Sure this kind of line is trotted out on most media programmes week after week.

You haven't a notion what you're talking about as you've shown on several occasions in this thread. And you'd want to be careful what accusations you make.

[Hardy]

Another matter that smells strange is the one of SF TDs only getting the minimum wage and giving the rest to SF

One of the things that struck me about this, and Joe Higgins and RBB do it as well I think, is that these salaries are paid out of the public purse so is there a case for saying if they want to take the average ind wage then the rest should be given back to the exchequer and not to their parties

Yes. People seem to fall for this sleight of hand very easily. "I only take the average industrial wage" is never qualified with "the rest of it goes to the Sinn Fein machine". I can't see the electorate being that impressed if they fully understood that the fund that holds the proceeds of the party's very effective fundraising activities down the years is the beneficiary of this self denial and not the taxpayer. I hadn't thought of the maximum contribution legislation before either. How do they get around that?

[seafoid]

I can't believe FF lite is topping the poll . Where are the national garlic and stakes?

[tommysmith]

I can't believe FF lite is topping the poll . Where are the national garlic and stakes?

Yeah all the FF heads around Cavan our out canvasing for him.

[Main Street]

Another matter that smells strange is the one of SF TDs only getting the minimum wage and giving the rest to SF

One of the things that struck me about this, and Joe Higgins and RBB do it as well I think, is that these salaries are paid out of the public purse so is there a case for saying if they want to take the average ind wage then the rest should be given back to the exchequer and not to their parties

Yes. People seem to fall for this sleight of hand very easily. "I only take the average industrial wage" is never qualified with "the rest of it goes to the Sinn Fein machine". I can't see the electorate being that impressed if they fully understood that the fund that holds the proceeds of the party's very effective fundraising activities down the years is the beneficiary of this self denial and not the taxpayer. I hadn't thought of the maximum contribution legislation before either. How do they get around that?

I thought it was obvious that a Sinn Fein td's salary goes to the party and they get paid out from that. That's common knowledge, in the public domain, no secret.

As far as McGuinness' hypothetical presidential salary, he has claimed he would put the surplus aside into a separate social fund.

[Nally Stand]

The party gets this money from the public purse just like every other one. The whole point is not that it might cost the taxpayer less, but rather means their candidates will not want to join the party or run for election to any position if they are just motivated by money. It demonstrates that they are not career politicians. Nothing more nothing less.

[muppet]

Another matter that smells strange is the one of SF TDs only getting the minimum wage and giving the rest to SF

One of the things that struck me about this, and Joe Higgins and RBB do it as well I think, is that these salaries are paid out of the public purse so is there a case for saying if they want to take the average ind wage then the rest should be given back to the exchequer and not to their parties

Yes. People seem to fall for this sleight of hand very easily. "I only take the average industrial wage" is never qualified with "the rest of it goes to the Sinn Fein machine". I can't see the electorate being that impressed if they fully understood that the fund that holds the proceeds of the party's very effective fundraising activities down the years is the beneficiary of this self denial and not the taxpayer. I hadn't thought of the maximum contribution legislation before either. How do they get around that?

I thought it was obvious that a Sinn Fein td's salary goes to the party and they get paid out from that. That's common knowledge, in the public domain, no secret.

As far as McGuinness' hypothetical presidential salary, he has claimed he would put the surplus aside into a separate social fund.

Main Street, the maximum a party may accept from a single donor is €6,348.69. Anything over that must be declared and goes to the State. TDs earn close to €100,000. Deduct the maximum they can give to SF and that leaves well over €90,000.

[Tubberman]

The party gets this money from the public purse just like every other one. The whole point is not that it might cost the taxpayer less, but rather means their candidates will not want to join the party or run for election to any position if they are just motivated by money. It demonstrates that they are not career politicians. Nothing more nothing less.

How long do you have to be a politician before it becomes your career? 

[mylestheslasher]

The party gets this money from the public purse just like every other one. The whole point is not that it might cost the taxpayer less, but rather means their candidates will not want to join the party or run for election to any position if they are just motivated by money. It demonstrates that they are not career politicians. Nothing more nothing less.

That was always my understanding of it too. That sf people stood for something principaled (whether you agree with it or not). There are many hungry hoors on politics that just want the money and imo that is not what it should be about.

[Evil Genius]

EG if you want to be truly balanced you need to look objectively at all the atrocities committed in Ireland, and where do you stop? But of course like some of your adversaries on here you only want to post on those atrocities that affected your community and which support your view of Martin McGuiness. It really is time to draw a line, there really isn't any single point of responsibility for what happened in the past.

Where do I stop?

Much as it may assist you you in deflecting from uncomfortable entries (omissions, actually) on your preferred candidate's CV, we are not discussing "all the atrocities committed in Ireland".

Rather we are discussing those atrocities associated with the candidates in the election to the Irish Presidency.

Which means that we start with... Martin McGuinness and end with... Martin McGuinness.

And in his (self-confessed) leading role in the Provos in Derry in the early 1970's, that means he must be inextricably linked with the many murders of entirely innocent Irish civilians, committed by the Provos in Derry during the early 1970's.

To start with.

(And btw, if we were discussing some self-styled "Loyalist" former Terrorist running for high office in NI, I can assure you I would be equally forthright in condemning that, too.)   

No hierarchy of victims and no one more to blame than the next and every single death is a tragedy.

"No hierarchy of victims" my hole. 

Are you honestly trying to tell me that eg an eight year old girl blown to pieces whilst helping clean the windows in her parents' shop should be treated exactly the same as eg a bomber who blows himself up with his own device?

Was the death eg of Billy Wright a "tragedy"? And if so, does it rank exactly the same as the deaths of those poor terrified victims whom he murdered, for no other reason than that they were Catholics?

People like you will say anything to try to justify the vile "principles" by which you view things.

Maybe you need to do so to help you sleep at night?