The Race for the ARAS.....

[lawnseed]

besides being a republican. the best reason to vote for martin is that hes a 'somebody'. whats the point of sending any of the rest of them anywhere? we might as well send a homeless wino or dustin the turkey. martin mcguiness demands/commands the attention of the worlds media now never mind as the president of ireland. remember when yeltsin wouldnt/couldnt get off the plane in  shannon to meet the irish president well had it been martin mcguiness he'd have got off.. thats the difference

You really are deluded. All reports suggest that Yeltsin was incapable of getting off the plane, regardless of who was there to greet him.

Also, regarding McGuinness being a 'somebody', our last two Presidents were hardly household names on the international stage before taking up office, yet were highly regarded and respected worldwide. So that argument holds no water.

i'd love to see the results of a survey abroad asking people to name any irish president. you wouldnt have that problem with marty

Yes, because that is of critical importance.

Just out of interest, how many foreign heads of state could you name (without checking Google)? Germany? China? Argentina? Spain? Japan? Brazil? India?
No, I didn't think so.

The results of a survey taken abroad where people are asked "Who is Martin McGuinness" might devastate some of the usual suspects on this board. We have a puffed up sense of our own place in the world.

yeah people said stuff like that about bobby sands and yet there are streets named after him in cities all over the world eg barcelona

Thanks for the lesson. I wonder how many had heard of him before the hunger strikes. Care to hazard a guess?

are you suggesting that the candidates should go on hungerstrike. so people might recognise them..

[gallsman]

are you suggesting that the candidates should go on hungerstrike. so people might recognise them..

Definitely.

[ardal]

Which barrio is calle Bobby Sands in, in Barcelona? I'm sure there is one, but can't remember where.

[lawnseed]

cool come back spentseed.

And there was me thinking we'd discuss which countries "abroad" would be surveyed, which type of socio-economic-demograhic we should target etc etc etc

No matter what happens to Ireland, some things shall never change; it's a comforting thought really

at the moment the best results of such a survey would come from the recipients of the approx 200,000 irish emmigrants that have had to leave the country since around 2009. eg austrialia canada. outside of these countries i doubt very much that many people could name an irish president

Ok ok, you win. Irish immigration started in 2009, thus your fantastically accurate figure of 200, 000. Sorry, ignore the influence of the Diaspora on certain countries and the statistical link below

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/2011/popmig_2011.pdf

oopps, can you add on the figures in the link

lawnseed doesn't do accuracy (In fact he doesn't even do reality).

He's prone to pulling figures out of the air and presenting them as fact - like the 9:1 'civilian to military' casualty ratio in Afghanistan he came out with the other day.

9:1 is the figure presented as 'acceptable' buy the british and american generals as it is in line with the figures produced in other similar engagements. bbc radio 4 interview. you wont hear that kind of thing on northern sound.
reality..

[lawnseed]

are you suggesting that the candidates should go on hungerstrike. so people might recognise them..

Definitely.

maybe gay mitchell..

[Maguire01]

lawnseed doesn't do accuracy (In fact he doesn't even do reality).

He's prone to pulling figures out of the air and presenting them as fact - like the 9:1 'civilian to military' casualty ratio in Afghanistan he came out with the other day.

9:1 is the figure presented as 'acceptable' buy the british and american generals as it is in line with the figures produced in other similar engagements. bbc radio 4 interview. you wont hear that kind of thing on northern sound.
reality..

Yes, you listen to Radio 4. I'm sure you can provide a link.

The only reference I could see online was this:
Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#cite_note-kempjp-3

Now if you can show me the 9:1, please do.

[lawnseed]

kemp is not the guy i heard, i dont recognise his name. but he was a brit. ask tomas burns

[Tony Baloney]

http://ccw.modhist.ox.ac.uk/publications/Survival%20vol%2052%20no%203%20-%20Adam%20Roberts%20on%20lives%20%20statistics%20-%20non-printable.pdf

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

cool come back spentseed.

And there was me thinking we'd discuss which countries "abroad" would be surveyed, which type of socio-economic-demograhic we should target etc etc etc

No matter what happens to Ireland, some things shall never change; it's a comforting thought really

at the moment the best results of such a survey would come from the recipients of the approx 200,000 irish emmigrants that have had to leave the country since around 2009. eg austrialia canada. outside of these countries i doubt very much that many people could name an irish president

If they were from the Republic and left since 2009, I'm pretty sure at least 99% of them could name one and 80% could name more than one. Remember these people were educated in the Republic not the U.K.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

besides being a republican. the best reason to vote for martin is that hes a 'somebody'. whats the point of sending any of the rest of them anywhere? we might as well send a homeless wino or dustin the turkey. martin mcguiness demands/commands the attention of the worlds media now never mind as the president of ireland. remember when yeltsin wouldnt/couldnt get off the plane in  shannon to meet the irish president well had it been martin mcguiness he'd have got off.. thats the difference

You really are deluded. All reports suggest that Yeltsin was incapable of getting off the plane, regardless of who was there to greet him.

Also, regarding McGuinness being a 'somebody', our last two Presidents were hardly household names on the international stage before taking up office, yet were highly regarded and respected worldwide. So that argument holds no water.

i'd love to see the results of a survey abroad asking people to name any irish president. you wouldnt have that problem with marty

Yes, because that is of critical importance.

Just out of interest, how many foreign heads of state could you name (without checking Google)? Germany? China? Argentina? Spain? Japan? Brazil? India?
No, I didn't think so.

The results of a survey taken abroad where people are asked "Who is Martin McGuinness" might devastate some of the usual suspects on this board. We have a puffed up sense of our own place in the world.

Pretty sure f**k all Australians have heard of Martin McGuinness, Michael Collins seemed far better known   

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

besides being a republican. the best reason to vote for martin is that hes a 'somebody'. whats the point of sending any of the rest of them anywhere? we might as well send a homeless wino or dustin the turkey. martin mcguiness demands/commands the attention of the worlds media now never mind as the president of ireland. remember when yeltsin wouldnt/couldnt get off the plane in  shannon to meet the irish president well had it been martin mcguiness he'd have got off.. thats the difference

You really are deluded. All reports suggest that Yeltsin was incapable of getting off the plane, regardless of who was there to greet him.

Also, regarding McGuinness being a 'somebody', our last two Presidents were hardly household names on the international stage before taking up office, yet were highly regarded and respected worldwide. So that argument holds no water.

i'd love to see the results of a survey abroad asking people to name any irish president. you wouldnt have that problem with marty

Yes, because that is of critical importance.

Just out of interest, how many foreign heads of state could you name (without checking Google)? Germany? China? Argentina? Spain? Japan? Brazil? India?
No, I didn't think so.

The results of a survey taken abroad where people are asked "Who is Martin McGuinness" might devastate some of the usual suspects on this board. We have a puffed up sense of our own place in the world.

yeah people said stuff like that about bobby sands and yet there are streets named after him in cities all over the world eg barcelona

& in bastions of democracy like Iran.

[Evil Genius]

But what do you think of his attitude to civilian casualties in that interview?

Opinions change. Attitudes change. That's life. Before this years world cup I thought Rugby was shit. I'm sure Mc Guinness regrets alot of things and his attitudes have changed towards alot of things. He is no different in that regard than any other person.

What planet do you inhabit?

Here is what MMcG said in the 1972 interview:
Interviewer: "Inevitably some civilians are going to be hurt in these [car bomb] explosions"
MMcG: "That is quite right, you know, but we have always given ample warnings and anyone was hurt was hurt through their own fault, being too nosy, sticking around the place where the bomb was after they were told to get clear. It's only been their own fault that they got hurt"

Let's leave aside the fact that the Provos frequently failed to give warnings (eg Enniskillen/Tullyhummon) or gave totally inadequate warnings. Let's leave aside the fact that people generally tend to scarper in the opposite direction when they hear of a bomb. Let's forget that very often the victims were children or elderly etc, who were physically unable to make good their escape. Let's forget, too, that often the Provos planted multiple bombs, in such a pattern that civilians were unwittingly "evacuated" from the site of one bomb to the site of another (eg Oxford Street Bus Station on Bloody Friday). Let's also forget that it was a frequent Provo tactic to plant a bomb, then set booby traps in the vicinity, so as to catch the Security Forces whose job it was to evacuate civilians. Let us even forget that when given the opportunity in 2002 to review those remarks, MMcG declined to retract or revise them, but instead complained about "[journalists] dragging things from the past to score political points" (sound familiar?  ).

Instead, let us think about this. MMcG made his original remarks in 1972. I wonder was it before or after the Claudy bombing in July that year? Many will be unfamiliar with that particular outrage - it has been called "The Forgotten Atrocity", after all:


Here is a brief factual account of the events of that day (from Wiki, btw):
Shortly before 10:00 am, three car bombs were placed in the centre of the village, which was busy with shoppers at the time. Initial police investigations found that a car was seen travelling from Claudy at 10:00. It had stopped at the nearby village of Feeny where a passenger tried to use the public telephone box, which was out-of-order. The car then travelled to Dungiven where it stopped on the Main Street. Two men got out and went into separate shops to use the telephones, which were also out-of-order following a bomb attack at the local telephone exchange. The men then asked the shop assistants to tell the police at Dungiven that there were three bombs in Claudy, but by this time the first bomb had already detonated.

The first bomb, hidden inside a stolen Ford Cortina, exploded at 10:15 outside McElhinney's bar and store on Main Street. Six people were killed by this bomb, including an eight year old girl. A second bomb, hidden inside a stolen Morris Mini Van parked outside the Post Office on Main Street, was spotted by a police officer, who then began directing people away from the area towards Church Street. At 10:30, a bomb hidden inside a stolen Mini Van detonated outside the Beaufort Hotel on Church Street. The bomb outside the Post Office exploded almost simultaneously, killing three people.

And these are details of the nosy parkers victims:

Elizabeth McElhinney (RC) - Elizabeth was serving petrol at a pump outside McElhinney's pub on Main Street when the first car bomb exploded nearby. The 59-year-old nurse was killed instantly.

Joseph McCloskey (RC) - Joseph, 39, was also killed instantly in the first explosion. A father of seven, he had taken his four-year-old son into the village to buy a newspaper. His son survived the explosion.

Kathryn Eakin (P) - Eight-year-old Kathryn was cleaning the windows of her family's shop when the first bomb went off. She died instantly. Her mother, Merle, saw a bomber leave what would be the second bomb beside their shop, not knowing what horror it would bring to her family. "When he stepped out of that car, he saw Kathryn standing at that window," she said. "He should have shouted at her. But he didn't, he just walked away."

Rose McLaughlin (RC) - Rose was injured in the first explosion. The 52-year-old mother of eight died three days later on 3 August. She owned a shop on Main Street and was hit by shrapnel while talking to a customer.

Patrick Connolly (RC) - Fifteen-year-old Patrick, who was in Rose McLaughlin's shop, was injured by flying metal from the first explosion. He was flown to Altnagelvin Hospital in Londonderry, but died eight days later on 8 August.

Arthur Hone (P) - Arthur was the final person to die as a result of the first bomb. The 38-year-old father of two died from his injuries on 13 August. A keen musician who worked in Londonderry, he had stayed at home that day. He was hit by shrapnel as he stood in Elizabeth McElhinney's shop.

David Miller (P) - David died when the third bomb outside the Beaufort Hotel exploded. He was 60-years-old. He had helped the injured after the first explosion, but when the second device was discovered by police he, along with many others, was directed into the path of the third explosion.

James McClelland (P) - Sixty-five-year-old James was also instantly killed as the third bomb exploded. He too had been helping the injured aftert he first explosion.

William Temple (P) - William, 16, had travelled to Claudy from Donemana in County Tyrone. He was a milkman's helper and his round included the village. He had been injured by the first explosion, but was killed instantly in the third.


MMcG expressed no remorse at the time of the bombing, which is universally believed to have been carried out by the Derry Brigade of the IRA, of which he was then either OC or 2OC.

He has never unequivocally condemned the carnage, either. (In fact, I don't think he has even accepted that it was the Provos who did it).

And he has done precisely nothing to assist in helping the grieving relatives achieve closure etc, by investigating exactly who was responsible.

Therefore in judging MMcG's words from 1972 in the light of Claudy, just one atrocity amongst many from that time, you might be happy to conclude that "Attitudes change. Opinions change. That's life".

But here is my conclusion. If McMG has any regrets about his role in the murder of hundreds of innocent Irish people committed by the IRA, it is only that the "Armed Struggle" [sic] did not succeed in its stated aim of driving the Brits out of Ireland etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

And that the only reason he turned to "Peace", was because he finally realised that far from uniting Ireland, the campaign was only serving to drive an ever deeper wedge between the various peoples of Ireland, with ever decreasing hope of some sort of military success. Therefore he betrayed all the principles (and comrades) he had formerly sworn to uphold and instead engaged in a process of collaboration with his erstwhile enemies, solely for the political advantage that this might bring him and his party.

For just as a Leopard may not change its spots, so a vicious, murderous, pyschopathic c u n t  may never fully expunge the dark poison which festers deep within him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE

[lynchbhoy]

MMcG expressed no remorse at the time of the bombing, which is universally believed to have been carried out by the Derry Brigade of the IRA, of which he was then either OC or 2OC.

He has never unequivocally condemned the carnage, either. (In fact, I don't think he has even accepted that it was the Provos who did it).

And he has done precisely nothing to assist in helping the grieving relatives achieve closure etc, by investigating exactly who was responsible.

Therefore in judging MMcG's words from 1972 in the light of Claudy, just one atrocity amongst many from that time, you might be happy to conclude that "Attitudes change. Opinions change. That's life".

But here is my conclusion. If McMG has any regrets about his role in the murder of hundreds of innocent Irish people committed by the IRA, it is only that the "Armed Struggle" [sic] did not succeed in its stated aim of driving the Brits out of Ireland etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

And that the only reason he turned to "Peace", was because he finally realised that far from uniting Ireland, the campaign was only serving to drive an ever deeper wedge between the various peoples of Ireland, with ever decreasing hope of some sort of military success. Therefore he betrayed all the principles (and comrades) he had formerly sworn to uphold and instead engaged in a process of collaboration with his erstwhile enemies, solely for the political advantage that this might bring him and his party.

For just as a Leopard may not change its spots, so a vicious, murderous, pyschopathic c u n t  may never fully expunge the dark poison which festers deep within him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE

reminds me a bit of yourself eg - for the above rubbish you wrote is yet another yawn.
this time you use the claudy bombing to attempt and leverage a rant at mcguinness. shame on you.

are you going to try and link the shooting of jfk on him next - just because he didnt publicly condemn it ?
yer some clown.

[Tubberman]

besides being a republican. the best reason to vote for martin is that hes a 'somebody'. whats the point of sending any of the rest of them anywhere? we might as well send a homeless wino or dustin the turkey. martin mcguiness demands/commands the attention of the worlds media now never mind as the president of ireland. remember when yeltsin wouldnt/couldnt get off the plane in  shannon to meet the irish president well had it been martin mcguiness he'd have got off.. thats the difference

You really are deluded. All reports suggest that Yeltsin was incapable of getting off the plane, regardless of who was there to greet him.

Also, regarding McGuinness being a 'somebody', our last two Presidents were hardly household names on the international stage before taking up office, yet were highly regarded and respected worldwide. So that argument holds no water.

i'd love to see the results of a survey abroad asking people to name any irish president. you wouldnt have that problem with marty

firstly, that's your opinion and not based on any facts. Secondly, if he was known in those countries it would most likely be as leader of a terrorist organisation which has finally put down it's guns. I'm not sure that's the image most irish people want to portray abroad to be honest.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

MMcG expressed no remorse at the time of the bombing, which is universally believed to have been carried out by the Derry Brigade of the IRA, of which he was then either OC or 2OC.

He has never unequivocally condemned the carnage, either. (In fact, I don't think he has even accepted that it was the Provos who did it).

And he has done precisely nothing to assist in helping the grieving relatives achieve closure etc, by investigating exactly who was responsible.

Therefore in judging MMcG's words from 1972 in the light of Claudy, just one atrocity amongst many from that time, you might be happy to conclude that "Attitudes change. Opinions change. That's life".

But here is my conclusion. If McMG has any regrets about his role in the murder of hundreds of innocent Irish people committed by the IRA, it is only that the "Armed Struggle" [sic] did not succeed in its stated aim of driving the Brits out of Ireland etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

And that the only reason he turned to "Peace", was because he finally realised that far from uniting Ireland, the campaign was only serving to drive an ever deeper wedge between the various peoples of Ireland, with ever decreasing hope of some sort of military success. Therefore he betrayed all the principles (and comrades) he had formerly sworn to uphold and instead engaged in a process of collaboration with his erstwhile enemies, solely for the political advantage that this might bring him and his party.

For just as a Leopard may not change its spots, so a vicious, murderous, pyschopathic c u n t  may never fully expunge the dark poison which festers deep within him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE

reminds me a bit of yourself eg - for the above rubbish you wrote is yet another yawn.
this time you use the claudy bombing to attempt and leverage a rant at mcguinness. shame on you.

are you going to try and link the shooting of jfk on him next - just because he didnt publicly condemn it ?
yer some clown.

What was unreasonable about what EG posted above. Yesterday Martin McGuinness himself was using the Fine Gael and Labour candidates links to the current government's austerity meaures and the Fianna Fail member candidates links to the previous governments recklessness with the economy and the bailouts as tangible reasons to lambast said individuals. They did not make any personal decision to introduce austerity measures, or the previous governments trainwreck economics. Yet McGuinness stains them by assoiciation, based on that principle, he too should at the very least be subjected to the same scrutiny of association.

McGuinness says he is the only candidate who did not introduce austerity measures or get appointed to government appointed boards. But surely to take that view, he is showing a partitionist interpretation of Ireland. He campaigns in the 6 & 26 but only talks of the austerity measures in the Republic. Who is implementing austerity measures in the 6 counites of Ireland? He also claims he is the only non-establishment candidate, but he is surely now an establishment candidate in an establishment party in the 6 counties, or is he only an All-Ireland candidate when he is campaigning and talking about achievements but a partitionist when discussing the failings of the other candidates.