Quinn Insurance in Administration

Started by An Gaeilgoir, March 30, 2010, 12:15:49 PM

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seafoid

Quinn  has betrayed the trust of the people of the border region. He has messed around with the regulator for at least 2 years

"For almost two years, the regulator was engaged in exhaustive discussions with the company to force it to bring its solvency levels up to the required standard. Quinn said it would do this by limiting the amount of insurance premiums it was taking on in 2009 to €972m and also target more profitable lines of business in the UK. The regulator agreed to the plan, but the company went on to write €1.05bn of premiums and make a loss of more than €44m in the UK. Quinn also had to write down the value of its property assets by €75m. " Sunday Tribune
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Declan

QuoteDeclan can you really blame them??
No I couldn't blame them for trying to save their jobs but I think they are being used by Quinn group and are pawns in a bigger game. They should be asking questions of their management and not parroting the company line - When I heard the employee "spokesperson" on the radio last week he refused to answer any questions about this which leads me to believe he's a patsy set up by the company to gain public sympathy.

QuoteStart protesting against Quinn??
If protesting means asking him why he broke the rules well then yes. I can understand why they wouldn't take to the streets demanding his head on a plate as some others would feel entitled to do but this unyielding loyalty and unquestioning is exactly what has F**cked this country up.

QuoteOnly problem is that these multinational companies will have absolutely no interrest in keeping these jobs in Fermanagh/Cavan.
They will be moved elsewhere.

I'd say as part of any buy out there would be huge pressure to keep the jobs up there so whilst there maybe some losses I'm not sure whether the whole lot would go

QuoteWhy is it that Quinn in the only one being actively chased??

I'm not sure but maybe it's because he's the only one with a business that is in breach of it's regulations. Re the other developers and bondholders well we have been told that they will be pursued by NAMA etc but I won't hold my breath. On the bondholders I'd be of the same opinion as the argument outlined in Kerrigan's article posted earlier.

I know people who work for Quinn and feel for them just as I also know people who have been made redundant recently and I hope everything works out for them. Unfortunately experience has taught me that ultimately loyalty to the job counts for SFA and I hate to see people being used like this.

lynchbhoy

would mostly agree with you Dec, but still think that the jobs would be safer with quinn in charge - or one of the quinns if Sean sr had to fall on his sword.
Also think that (conspiricy alert) its all quite cushy now that a lot of the developers have become bankrupt and transferred their remaining assets etc before nama came into proper play. Now the only few standing like quinn are going to be pursued...and thats very suspect from my perspecive.
he is def a scapegoat. his creative accounting was wrong, but to use  phrase from the departed financial regulator (the one that he used about fitzpatrick taking the 94million loan) - it was ethically wrong , but not illegal or legally wrong (because there was no f**king legislation in place from the financial regulator at the time).
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muppet

Quote from: cornafean on April 06, 2010, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

Collectively they will indeed cost the taxpayer billions. Tens of billions.

We are bailing out the banks, not the home owners. They won't get a cent.
MWWSI 2017

Fear ón Srath Bán

From today's Irish Times:

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue


BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

seafoid

Surely it makes more sense to keep the jobs in Fermanagh, Cavan etc where salaries and land are cheaper than in Dublin.
Sean Quinn comes across as a tribal chieftain, the heir to the Maguires, rather than a serious insurance player.   
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Hardy

That Irish Times piece is just about the perfect summation of the situation I'd say. It's also a model of clarity, informative journalism and good writing. Take a bow Mr. McManus.

lynchbhoy

so Quinn and quinn insurance really need to just enforce the regulatory requirements and implement proper solvency measures.
I presume this will be at a cost to profitibility - still this should at long last be done by quinns. rules are rules - irrespective of whether everyone else that has come and gone effectively ignored them !
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sammymaguire

John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland
DRIVE THAT BALL ON!!

Hardy

Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

bingobus

For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!

small white mayoman

Quote from: bingobus on April 06, 2010, 04:28:33 PM
For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!

can't get my head around that either BB ,its like saying we want regulation so long as it does not affect us  ???
All Ireland Champions 2006 & 2007

lynchbhoy

lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....
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small white mayoman

Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....

lets hope so 
All Ireland Champions 2006 & 2007

sammymaguire

Quote from: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.
DRIVE THAT BALL ON!!