The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[Tyrones own]

majority of the income tax raised in Ireland. Even if only 20% of them ?

Taking from the willing to work and giving it to the lazy cnuts who won't........
at home and be as well off as opposed to going to work

Meanwhile in your dream world 453,000 jobs are unfilled in the 26 Counties.
Get a grip and talk some sense instead of spouting oul blinkered bullshit.

What's with the heavily edited quote, a third of which isn't even mine   
So let me see if I have this right, the Wholly unsustainable abuse of welfare
has suddenly only become a problem since the shit hit the fan in the past 2 years 

How about the Lazy cnuts that most all of us know in one form or another that never worked
a day in his life just like his Da before him simply because he could whether it be unemployment,
the sick, DLA, depression...FFS the list is endless, Catch a fecking grip will ye while climbing down off
that high horse, Aye and it's me that's blinkered 

[Tyrones own]

They rob the poor to pay the rich -- how noble.

Your quite simply a lost cause to logic... So tax the dung out of these corps/wealthy
who are creating jobs and they then up and leave for the tax incentives elsewhere... then what Fear
Though Muppet already explained this

[Bogball XV]

So you're saying that the monies generated via a weath tax should be diverted into benefits which people can then use to save their homes?  Does that mean that when the homeowner eventually sells the property, that the state can reclaim the money it has provided to purchase the house?

As you can probably guess I have no problem with people losing title to their homes, if they made a bad purchasing decision then they have to pay the price.  There were no guns held to anybody's head to buy houses.  Yes, people foolishly believed the hype and some unfortunates even believed that the since the bank had vetted them, then, they must be able to afford it, but ultimately, they signed the contract themselves.

On the other hand, I don't want these people to be evicted.  Imo if they receive govt funds that allow them to retain their homes, or if their is some sort of debt forgiveness scheme, these people cannot be allowed to profit in full from the sale of that asset at a later date.  To do otherwise would be inequitable.  Whilst we should have some sympathy for these people now, in twenty years time when they sell up or remortgage in order to buy the new speedboat (the old one was 25 yrs old and sprung a leak) will they be happy to repay their debt to the society that bailed them out?

[muppet]

Great post Declan.

After FF's disastrous version of populism, leftist populism (screw the 'rich') would bury us for an extra 5 years on top of the depression we will have. Voting for people who prioritise the Public Sector and high taxes is hardly the solution to our problems but Gilmore for example is doing a great job of attracting voters.

Half of all income tax is paid by a low percentage of high earners. It is spin and lies suggesting high earners are somehow not pulling their weight from a tax point of view. From what I see most of those who publicly demand high earners pay even more tax, pay little or no tax themselves.

Either way, the problem for the Dept of Finance is this. Tax the f*ck out of high earners and some of them will move to another jurisdiction. Lots of these people work for foreign outfits in places like the IFSC, Intel, Google etc. Some of them spend lots of time abroad as it is. Remember these people pay the vast majority of the income tax raised in Ireland. Even if only 20% of them moved it would be disastrous for the tax take. Driving them out is not clever.

As for the 'wealth tax' proposal. Let's say it was 1%. Take Michael O'Leary, of whom I make no secret of my loathing. However, if he is worth €500 Million he will have to pay €5 Million a year in wealth tax alone. Does anyone with more than one functional brain cell see that it might be in his interests to take himself and his €500 Million out of the State?

Replacing populist right nonsense with populism left nonsense is not a good idea.

Just for you muppet - this is just kicking the can down the road

Introduce the wealth tax and we will see if Michael O'Leary moves out. We have been crying out for leadership and this is a leadership issue. Take them on and take control of the country and f**k them if they don't like it. At the minute our young are moving out by the thousand. That's not worth one Michael O'Leary in my view. I saw some woman on the late late last night who won an award for volunteering. She is worth more to the rebuilding of this country than O'leary will ever be. Typically though. I can't even remember her name. I will be accused of populism here but sometimes a popular idea is a good idea. Yes, there has to be a balance but right now it isn't there.

Calling a wealth tax populist doesn't mean anything, it's just something you said. It is actually ligimate way to raise revenue. It has feck all to do with who is pulling their weight in tax payments but everything to do with who can afford to pay. Dishing out these figures is great on paper but in the real economy it leads to more and more citizens falling into the poverty trap. The alternative could be - don't tax O'Leary another 500m and see 20 more families lose their homes. Take a chance on the wealth tax and have these peopple keep their homes. If it doesn't work then so be it. Boys like O'Leary will come and go. If he runs on the COuntry and the people who made him rich then we're better off shot of him. If you lend someone a score and never see them again it's money well spent. A wealth tax will lead to the rich putting a bigger slice into the country and people that made them rich. Cutting welfare will lead these people to or below the bread line. Populist? Maybe. Wrong? No.

If we keep cutting it will become like Lenihans new 90% bonus tax. THere will be nothing there to tax other than the wealth.

There are two basic routes the Left could take.

a) do anything to get at least 300,000 people working in sustainable employment using ideas and ingenuity I'm afraid I don't have the smarts to offer here;
b) get someone else to pay for it.

Sinn Fein are choosing the easy (populist) option. It will only succeed in burying a country that you are trying to keep alive.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

They rob the poor to pay the rich -- how noble.

Your quite simply a lost cause to logic... So tax the dung out of these corps/wealthy
who are creating jobs and they then up and leave for the tax incentives elsewhere... then what Fear
Though Muppet already explained this

You're quite simply putting words in my mouth.

My basic point was (despite Hound's Friedmanesque and irrelevant rant) that someone in the most elevated of public political positions had a chance, at least ostensibly, to demonstrate a nominal narrowing of the gap between the rich and poor in this state. So instead of grasping that opportunity the twat (Cowen) actually exacerbated his own personal gap, a gap that was entirely within his own control (uniquely). And there's any amount of evidence to support the assertion that the most unequal states are the most troublesome.

He could have led by example, instead he just buried his snout deeper in the stinking trough.

But that is entirely symptomatic, entirely reflective, of the general malaise that afflicts this sorry state: when faced with a choice between doing the right thing and the wrong thing those in a position of political power chose the latter, again.

And a budget that leaves millionaires better off and the poorest in society worse off is criminal -- where did I say anything about taxing anyone to the hilt? All I would ask for there is that the most wealthy would not be left better fecking off as a result of this scandalous budget, and that they most certainly are.

[Lar Naparka]

So you're saying that the monies generated via a weath tax should be diverted into benefits which people can then use to save their homes?  Does that mean that when the homeowner eventually sells the property, that the state can reclaim the money it has provided to purchase the house?

As you can probably guess I have no problem with people losing title to their homes, if they made a bad purchasing decision then they have to pay the price.  There were no guns held to anybody's head to buy houses.  Yes, people foolishly believed the hype and some unfortunates even believed that the since the bank had vetted them, then, they must be able to afford it, but ultimately, they signed the contract themselves.

On the other hand, I don't want these people to be evicted.  Imo if they receive govt funds that allow them to retain their homes, or if their is some sort of debt forgiveness scheme, these people cannot be allowed to profit in full from the sale of that asset at a later date.  To do otherwise would be inequitable.  Whilst we should have some sympathy for these people now, in twenty years time when they sell up or remortgage in order to buy the new speedboat (the old one was 25 yrs old and sprung a leak) will they be happy to repay their debt to the society that bailed them out?

I can accept that your proposals have merit but I suggest the same rationale should apply too the banks and other financial who borrowed vast amounts also. They borrowed recklessly in order to lend recklessly—IMO, they are the real culprits. In doing this, they were aided and abetted by selling agencies and by the government. Bertie made the statement that 'the boom just got boomier' and house buyers were encouraged to apply for mortgages of up to 120% the buying price of the houses in question. In plain terms, people were being encouraged by 'experts' they trusted to go buy a pig in a poke. Vetting procedures were very lax in the case of house buyers and, more importantly, in the case of the banks and others who borrowed money on the international markets.
Opinion is growing the govt. is going to have to renege on the guaranteed they gave to the gobshites who borrowed this money and which the taxpayers will have to pay back. Reneging on our commitments will have serious consequences as our international credit will nosedive and will, in all likelihood, this will bring more harm than good.
I think renegotiating the terms of those contracts is the only practical solution.
The same should apply to defaulting mortgage holders.
Putting large numbers of repossessed houses on the already depressed house market would cause our economy to go belly up without a doubt. Irish people don't take kindly to the prospect of evictions and of grabbers moving in over the heads of those thrown on the roadside and, hopefully, would be met with organised resistance from all sectors of the community. We have had enough evictions in our past to keep us on our toes for eternity.
Renegotiating mortgage terms on a mass scale won't cure our present problems but it certainly won't make them worse.

[muppet]

So you're saying that the monies generated via a weath tax should be diverted into benefits which people can then use to save their homes?  Does that mean that when the homeowner eventually sells the property, that the state can reclaim the money it has provided to purchase the house?

As you can probably guess I have no problem with people losing title to their homes, if they made a bad purchasing decision then they have to pay the price.  There were no guns held to anybody's head to buy houses.  Yes, people foolishly believed the hype and some unfortunates even believed that the since the bank had vetted them, then, they must be able to afford it, but ultimately, they signed the contract themselves.

On the other hand, I don't want these people to be evicted.  Imo if they receive govt funds that allow them to retain their homes, or if their is some sort of debt forgiveness scheme, these people cannot be allowed to profit in full from the sale of that asset at a later date.  To do otherwise would be inequitable.  Whilst we should have some sympathy for these people now, in twenty years time when they sell up or remortgage in order to buy the new speedboat (the old one was 25 yrs old and sprung a leak) will they be happy to repay their debt to the society that bailed them out?

Good points. I was only using it as an example. If people get help for their homes then by no means should they profit. The same should be applied across the board though and not just to those struggling with personal debt.

Nobody put a gun to the head of the bond holders or the ECB to fill the banks with cash. It's a bad investment and they should take some pain. If we are to pay back anyone who made a bad investment in Irish banks then they should not profit from it either. The people facing eviction for making bad investments on their homes are the same people paying out for those who made the bad investments in the banks/Irish property at a profit.

There are two basic routes the Left could take.

a) do anything to get at least 300,000 people working in sustainable employment using ideas and ingenuity I'm afraid I don't have the smarts to offer here;
b) get someone else to pay for it.

Sinn Fein are choosing the easy (populist) option. It will only succeed in burying a country that you are trying to keep alive.

Thought we were talking about Labour? Tax incentives didn't bring us much luck in many sectors.

I'm not trying to keep this coutry alive. This is not the Country I want it's just the one I have.

Now we are more likely to agree in this area. Most of the property related tax incentives should be phased out. Those that can be should be abolished altogether. Doing it too quickly though will bankrupt some individuals creating more toxic bank debt, which the State will have to pick up the tab for. But in the long run the plan should be to remove them never to be seen again.

Other tax shelters that purely benefit the wealthy should be examined with a view to scrapping them too. Some incentives obviously do stimulate the economy and are beneficial to all of us but there are many example of Ministers introducing tax breaks that seem to only benefit certain people. Here is a good example introduced by Bertie: http://thestory.ie/2010/02/07/the-closure-of-one-mans-tax-relief/

[bennydorano]

Great post Declan.

After FF's disastrous version of populism, leftist populism (screw the 'rich') would bury us for an extra 5 years on top of the depression we will have. Voting for people who prioritise the Public Sector and high taxes is hardly the solution to our problems but Gilmore for example is doing a great job of attracting voters.

Half of all income tax is paid by a low percentage of high earners. It is spin and lies suggesting high earners are somehow not pulling their weight from a tax point of view. From what I see most of those who publicly demand high earners pay even more tax, pay little or no tax themselves.

Either way, the problem for the Dept of Finance is this. Tax the f*ck out of high earners and some of them will move to another jurisdiction. Lots of these people work for foreign outfits in places like the IFSC, Intel, Google etc. Some of them spend lots of time abroad as it is. Remember these people pay the vast majority of the income tax raised in Ireland. Even if only 20% of them moved it would be disastrous for the tax take. Driving them out is not clever.

As for the 'wealth tax' proposal. Let's say it was 1%. Take Michael O'Leary, of whom I make no secret of my loathing. However, if he is worth €500 Million he will have to pay €5 Million a year in wealth tax alone. Does anyone with more than one functional brain cell see that it might be in his interests to take himself and his €500 Million out of the State?

Replacing populist right nonsense with populism left nonsense is not a good idea.

Just for you muppet - this is just kicking the can down the road

Introduce the wealth tax and we will see if Michael O'Leary moves out. We have been crying out for leadership and this is a leadership issue. Take them on and take control of the country and f**k them if they don't like it. At the minute our young are moving out by the thousand. That's not worth one Michael O'Leary in my view. I saw some woman on the late late last night who won an award for volunteering. She is worth more to the rebuilding of this country than O'leary will ever be. Typically though. I can't even remember her name. I will be accused of populism here but sometimes a popular idea is a good idea. Yes, there has to be a balance but right now it isn't there.

Calling a wealth tax populist doesn't mean anything, it's just something you said. It is actually ligimate way to raise revenue. It has feck all to do with who is pulling their weight in tax payments but everything to do with who can afford to pay. Dishing out these figures is great on paper but in the real economy it leads to more and more citizens falling into the poverty trap. The alternative could be - don't tax O'Leary another 500m and see 20 more families lose their homes. Take a chance on the wealth tax and have these peopple keep their homes. If it doesn't work then so be it. Boys like O'Leary will come and go. If he runs on the COuntry and the people who made him rich then we're better off shot of him. If you lend someone a score and never see them again it's money well spent. A wealth tax will lead to the rich putting a bigger slice into the country and people that made them rich. Cutting welfare will lead these people to or below the bread line. Populist? Maybe. Wrong? No.

If we keep cutting it will become like Lenihans new 90% bonus tax. THere will be nothing there to tax other than the wealth.

There are two basic routes the Left could take.

a) do anything to get at least 300,000 people working in sustainable employment using ideas and ingenuity I'm afraid I don't have the smarts to offer here;
b) get someone else to pay for it.

Sinn Fein are choosing the easy (populist) option. It will only succeed in burying a country that you are trying to keep alive.

SF haven't an Economic clue, if they get into power in any shape or form in ROI, the country will be way worse of.  NI is perfect for their gobshitery, they can spout all the nonsense they want knowing very few will desert them and their 'economic' ideas matter little as they are administering a glorified council with little real power to change/implement anything.  The SDLP are just as bad, the UUP are irrelevant, and as much as it pains me to say it, the only ones who seem to deal in financial realities up north are the Dupes.

[Bogball XV]

Without doubt all of those who benefited from the state's recent generosity should have to pay that back when the time comes.  As far as the banks go, since we effectively own them, if they survive to recover, we should be able to benefit in terms of dividends and profits from the sale of shares (if we ever decide that they should be allowed loose again).

I have been saying for more than 2 years now that the bondholders should have been allowed to take the pain that the supposedly free market would have dished out to them, unfortunately that didn't happen, but a renegotiation/restructuring of what's left will happen.

I'd agree that a renegotiation of personal debts may have to happen too, but we have to make sure that the state gets payback for that. 

One last point on tax incentives, imo they can be extremely important tools, but they have to imaginatively constructed.  The problem the last time around was that successive finance minsters and dept. personnel saw the revenues raised through the ongoing schemes and decided that they must be a good thing, without bothering to think about what was actually being made, holiday homes and hotels where there weren't any before, not usually a good thing, and in there thousands, ffs...

Tax incentives should be constructed at areas that will provide employment from export or the creation of something we need in this country, for example decent schools, energy infrastructure and generation. 

[highball]

This talk of wealth tax and the example use, Michael  O'Leary, is typical BS and Irish begrudgery from people that don't have a clue how to plot a way out of this mess.  We talk of a "Smart Economy" and it being one way to get out of here but still you want to tax the crap out of people that start companies from scratch into a profitable $9B euro company that employs more than 7K people (OK, all not in Ireland), so what incentive is that for someone that may have an idea for the next company to employ people? O'Leary is paid 240K Euro per year, yeah sure he's not short a bob but it was his hard work that got himself there. Now you want to tax the crap out of him and others to pay for some jackass that sitting on the dole for the past 20 years! On that wage he probably already pays 100K plus in tax, more than most I hasten to guess. He's been critical of the Government all through the boom, as any good business man would be. Comments like "we'd be better off shot of him" and "we're people that made him rich" are complete nonsense. There are countless homes better off because of men/women like him, by generating good jobs etc.
There are countless more "O'Leary" types out there so your solution is to tax these Patriots out of the country, great strategy. We can see how well the country is going being run by people that have no business sense, vision or strategy.
Now if you take the state and semi-state companies like ESB, RTE etc. it's a different story. These people are overpaid and underperforming, Padraig McManus the head of ESB on 750K per year – remember you pay his wage in your ESB bill each month. What has a clown like that done over the past 15 years except help raise the average wage in the ESB to 75K/y, but the people on the street pay his way. Similar with Pat Kenny and the likes in RTE. Having to pay a TV license even if you never watch a min of RTE during the year – nuts. Let them be business run to make a profit without government help and people propping them up. All these lads need to be brought back down to earth, where's Jack O'Connor and his benchmarking and partnership these days. Another one that has put us where we are today.
While I'm at it, where's CAB these days? What about all the developers that still wander around untouched while their development in a overpaid for field lies unfinished. Not one person has been put in jail for this mess the Bankers/Builders/Government have the country. Yet, the US authorities are the ones putting the squeeze on Drumm from Anglo. It'd be better to recoup some funds this way rather than taxing the innovators and legitimate business leaders in the private sector. Tax them and there no way out for this country except through Berlin!

[bcarrier]

The primary purpose of taxes is to raise money to run government programs and services. They might have secondary aims of restricting certain business practices, products or services.

A wealth tax will not raise more money for the state because it ignores the fact that " wealthy" people can move out of the state (or may already be non-resident) . It also ignores the truth that great wealth is seldom held by individuals but is hidden behind trust and corporate structures. 

You can tax some of the badges of wealth - property is immovable and a property tax will be collected no matter the residence or nature of the owner. The costs of collection are low after set up of the initial database . The state also needs to sort out its own supply chain - the professions and medical suppliers have been getting wealthy on the back of protected positions.

[Lar Naparka]

I'm quite puzzled by the fact that the Government hasn't considered the possibility of raising money from internal sources.
Surely, it should be possible to issue special savings bond for sale to the general public—somewhat along the lines of War Bonds, which has been used by Britain, the US and other countries in times of war?
People buying the bonds would in effect loan the government money at an interest rate below those on international markets. The bonds would be redeemable at some future date at face value.
The money realised would help generate some or all of the capital we need now to keep Ireland Ltd. going.  Patriotic sentiments would help offset the low interest returns and the investments would be safe and involve little risk—unlike the gambles taken by the banking gobshites who got us into this mess in the first place. Regular lottery draws could be held as an added attraction along the lines of the Irish Hospital Sweepstakes.
Maybe I'm missing something- I don't claim to be a high finance expert but neither can Messrs Cowan, Lenihan and the rest of that sorry lot.
Does anyone else think savings bonds would be a good idea?

[comethekingdom]

Would anyone of sound mind lend to these muppets/donkeys? I for one , wouldn't!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'm quite puzzled by the fact that the Government hasn't considered the possibility of raising money from internal sources.
...

I believe they have already Lar: NTMA

[muppet]

I'm quite puzzled by the fact that the Government hasn't considered the possibility of raising money from internal sources.
...

I believe they have already Lar: NTMA

http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/en/news/press-releases/171-o-cuiv-new-investment-initiative-for-irish-pension-schemes-to-be-made-available-in-january-2011-

It can be argued that the above farce is along the same lines.