The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[Peter Solan the Great]

A frank view of the collapse of the celtic tigers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk36cMgf028&feature=player_embedded

[FermGael]

Michael Noonan is wiping the floor with Brian Lenihan on Rte one.

[Tubberman]

Michael Noonan is wiping the floor with Brian Lenihan on Rte one.

Absolutely destroying him!
Being polite by calling him 'Minister' and 'Brian', and then completely demolishing him 
At least it looks like there is hope that Noonan could go to Europe and actually lead a proper negotiation team.

[An Gaeilgoir]

Michael Noonan is wiping the floor with Brian Lenihan on Rte one.

Absolutely destroying him!
Being polite by calling him 'Minister' and 'Brian', and then completely demolishing him 
At least it looks like there is hope that Noonan could go to Europe and actually lead a proper negotiation team.

People say that FF are finished as a party/ political force etc. But isn't Noonan the same minister for Health who was involved in the blood transfusion scandal a few years ago and bound a victim up in legal knots, who died before justice was served. Time heals all wounds. (still will not be voting FF by the way). Beware of history repeating its self.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Are these literally the only comments we have so far on the budget?

Some of this is hardly what I'd call "draconian". A jobseekers allowance of €196 a week reduced by €6?? My mates in the north on £56 will be crying them all a river.

Yeah, all €6 will do will take €6 per person out of the economy.

They needed to cut it in half. It'd still be miles better than the UK, but would be more likely to get lads off their arse and take jobs they don't particularly want instead of sitting at home all day watching the telly or playing their playstations.

That's tongue-in-cheek, but I would drop the dole by 50% for anyone who's on the dole for more than 1 year. I bet you'd see a lot suddenly getting jobs in month 11. Need to incentivise people to work, instead of incentivising them to sponge.

While I agree there is merit to the concept of your idea Hound, in the current job market that would only incentivise emigration on one end and an expanded black-market on the other.

From what i can the black market is alive and well. We have been trying to take on general operatives for a couple of jobs recently, we got one middle aged man who was sick of been at home. We were looking for 5 in total. One guy i know came for 2 days and decided that drawing the dole, doing a couple of nixers and two night's chinese deliveries was worth 850 euros a week in the hand. We are a long way from incentivises to go back to work.

Agreeing again with Muppet, this was all a bit of an anti- climax tgo be fair, our house will be down about 50 quid a week, the cost of living has come down and probably will come down further, so no big deal really.

Could some kind of half dole say €100 p/w, combined with NEW employees (min wage) being employed on say €6.00 P/hr for up to say 15 hours worked. This would be a temporary meassure 2-3 year arrangment. With their dole being reduced gradually per annum if they increased their hours worked or their pay is raised. If enough people where employed on this lower rate then the base wage could be lowered slowly, while bringing more people into employment.

[Bogball XV]

I'd agree with muppet that the whole thing has been a tad underwhelming.  The cuts should be much greater and the taxes higher imo.
From what I can make out, certainly as far as tax is concerned, we have just went back to about 2005 levels - people complaining about cuts have to remember we're coming from a pretty high base, the cuts and increased taxes still leave us pretty well off by european levels - that is unsustainable in the long run.

[Zapatista]

I'd agree with muppet that the whole thing has been a tad underwhelming.  The cuts should be much greater and the taxes higher imo.
From what I can make out, certainly as far as tax is concerned, we have just went back to about 2005 levels - people complaining about cuts have to remember we're coming from a pretty high base, the cuts and increased taxes still leave us pretty well off by european levels - that is unsustainable in the long run.

We are not pretty well off when you look at job prospects, health care, education costs etc. And as Muppet pointed out earlier, that's only addressing the deficiet. The debt is still hanging over us. I assume we need to take into account the IMF/ECB loan which has yet to be drawen? It is underwhelming though especially when people sitting at home shitting themselves watching the budget get treating to a chamber laughing and joking at Paul Gogarty. I wasn't fecking laughing with them. There are more of these budgets to come via FG, I'd like to have seen them angry rather than giggling at the Government.

I noticed Coughlan sitting sipping water as Pearse Doherty was attacking her over cuts to child benefit, school transport, nuc and she only fought back when he mentioned Misisters salaries. Show her prioirities allright.

[Bogball XV]

I'd agree with muppet that the whole thing has been a tad underwhelming.  The cuts should be much greater and the taxes higher imo.
From what I can make out, certainly as far as tax is concerned, we have just went back to about 2005 levels - people complaining about cuts have to remember we're coming from a pretty high base, the cuts and increased taxes still leave us pretty well off by european levels - that is unsustainable in the long run.

We are not pretty well off when you look at job prospects, health care, education costs etc. And as Muppet pointed out earlier, that's only addressing the deficiet.

I'm not sure about that, I think even accounting for all that we're still well off.  I'd like to see some comparisons though.  Certainly in terms of money in the pocket at the end of the week, I think we are substantially better off.

Re the banks/IMF monies etc, i imagine they've a provision for the interest payable at least?

It's a difficult thing to take away what people have grown accustomed to and what they therefore think they are entitled to, this budget went nowhere near far enough, in fact, I think this budget has an eye on the next election, i think FF actually think that being this soft, they might be able to win back a few loyal followers.  It's hardly a coincidence that old age pensions were barely touched, that the public sector have been exempted from the necessary cuts, that social welfare remains at unsustainable levels, that tax rates have been unchanged, that headline making caps on public sector salaries which will save a few million at most are being introduced. 

[ludermor]

Some speech from Doherty alright, i see Cowan fecked off in the middle of the speech

[Zapatista]

It's a difficult thing to take away what people have grown accustomed to and what they therefore think they are entitled to, this budget went nowhere near far enough, in fact, I think this budget has an eye on the next election, i think FF actually think that being this soft, they might be able to win back a few loyal followers.  It's hardly a coincidence that old age pensions were barely touched, that the public sector have been exempted from the necessary cuts, that social welfare remains at unsustainable levels, that tax rates have been unchanged, that headline making caps on public sector salaries which will save a few million at most are being introduced.

You could be right about an eye on the next election but I think that was more to do with where the cuts went than anything else.

This buget was always going to remove 6bn regardless of the next election. Money in the pocket is no substitute for life quality. Looking at emigration and unemployment levels is a better way to judge it. It's better to be working for a little less and be able to stay at home than it is to be uneployed and forced to leave. Multiply this by 45,000 people and 45-60,000 people respectively  in such a small country and you have major problems and poor life qquality. Add to that those living on the bread line but suffering daily with personal debt and a bleak future. If we are comparing then that's the sort of comparisons we should make. Lenihans was making financial and monetary comparisons all evening regarding the SW as good reason to make the cuts. He did stop short of making the same comparisons in TD's, Ministers and top Public servants salaries though.

[Bogball XV]

You could be right about an eye on the next election but I think that was more to do with where the cuts went than anything else.

This buget was always going to remove 6bn regardless of the next election. Money in the pocket is no substitute for life quality. Looking at emigration and unemployment levels is a better way to judge it. It's better to be working for a little less and be able to stay at home than it is to be uneployed and forced to leave. Multiply this by 45,000 people and 45-60,000 people respectively  in such a small country and you have major problems and poor life qquality. Add to that those living on the bread line but suffering daily with personal debt and a bleak future. If we are comparing then that's the sort of comparisons we should make. Lenihans was making financial and monetary comparisons all evening regarding the SW as good reason to make the cuts. He did stop short of making the same comparisons in TD's, Ministers and top Public servants salaries though.

I agree with a lot of that, money is no substitute for quality of life.  I'm very much an advocate of high taxes and decent services as a reward, that was the opposite of the direction that this country has been taken since its inception though.  I've said here many times that I don't want to see cuts in numbers of public servants, but we do need to slash their wages.    We have to realise that we are broke, we could never actually afford the wages or benefits that we were paying out, that imbecile from drumcondra maybe thought we could, but we couldn't.
A few on here have mentioned cutting social welfare after a year and that probably makes sense, or at least after 12 months let the recipient earn it by taking part in some decent public works programme, we all have to give a little bit back, even if we're on the dole.

[Lar Naparka]

Michael Noonan is wiping the floor with Brian Lenihan on Rte one.

Absolutely destroying him!
Being polite by calling him 'Minister' and 'Brian', and then completely demolishing him 
At least it looks like there is hope that Noonan could go to Europe and actually lead a proper negotiation team.

People say that FF are finished as a party/ political force etc. But isn't Noonan the same minister for Health who was involved in the blood transfusion scandal a few years ago and bound a victim up in legal knots, who died before justice was served. Time heals all wounds. (still will not be voting FF by the way). Beware of history repeating its self.

I watched the interview and I honestly don't think Noonan ko'd Lenihan. He should have, without a doubt. Public sentiment was in his favour and he had had several hours to cherry pick and Lenihan had to defend the most unpopular budget in the state's history. Yet, the host had to remind him several times that they were there to discuss the budget and not FG's policy document.
Okay, maybe I am grumpy because I was disappointed at Noonan's budget speech. It lacked passion and cohesion and he relied on tired clichés and mistimed jokes to make his case. It wasn't as if Lenihan had caught him off-guard because the main aspects of this budget had been signalled well in advance. As he was speaking, I studied the reactions of the non- FG members of the Opposition; Labour, SF and the Independents. To say they seemed as underwhelmed as much as I was is putting it mildly. No doubt about it; Mickey Noonan has had better days.
Earlier on, I saw Lenihan's interview with Vincent Browne on TV3. I had expected Ol' Sourpuss to wipe the floor with him but, again, I was disappointed. Lenihan kept his cool throughout as Browne failed repeatedly to pin him down. Make no mistake about it; Lenihan is a tougher and more able operator than Biffo.
It's quite probable that he will find himself Leader of the Opposition after the next election and Enda had better smarten up.

[Zapatista]

I heard a clip of Lenihan chatting Ivan Yates played this morning. Yates asked was he embarrassed? Lenihan said - No, I have had to deal with the worst crisis in history blah blah. I accept mistakes were made, huge mistakes were made pre 2008.... . He just hung Cowen out to dry. There is a definite line of attack there.

[Onion Bag]

It is a slow day in a damp little Irish town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmers ' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub. The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit. The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money and leaves town. No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.

[Lar Naparka]

It is a slow day in a damp little Irish town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmers ' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub. The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit. The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money and leaves town. No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.

Priceless!