The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[muppet]

Probably only fined on his per diems.

It says a lot that many Irish are identifying with the eurosceptic British reps.

It doesn't say much. It says many Irish can agree with someone who makes a good point. There is nothing more to it. If he said Kilkenny are a good hurling side I'd have to agree there too.

I'm not having a go, I thought it was a good speech too. It is just that I would have run a mile from people like that a few years ago. Just shows how much the world has changed.

i hope it's a trend for the Irish. We have a habbit of ruling out what someone says for reasons other than what they acttually say. It's narrow minded and easy to be taken advantage off to often.

Even though I voted no to Lisbon I would have considered myself pro-Europe up until recently. The 'blended' 5.8% interest rate (which means the EU lent to us at a higher rate) has changed my mind completely. Our idiotic politicians got us shafted by the EU idiotic politicians.

[Declan]

I see SF have cancelled the protest march in Dublin tomorrow

[seafoid]

"Even though I voted no to Lisbon I would have considered myself pro-Europe up until recently. The 'blended' 5.8% interest rate (which means the EU lent to us at a higher rate) has changed my mind completely. Our idiotic politicians got us shafted by the EU idiotic politicians."

Agree totally, Muppet. The people have been blatantly shafted to save the banks.  I can't agree to that.

The really sad thing about this deal is that strangers on both sides of the Atlantic see this as the crucifixion that it is while in Ireland the people are told to shut up and accept it .

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/ireland-agonistes/
azlib AZ December 2nd, 2010
8:17 pm

What I just do not understand is how the bank bondholders get away with no losses. They should have taken a haircut in this deal. More importantly there should be total outrage over this and hopefully there will be.

http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/2010/12/letter-from-dublin/
A Nassim | December 2 11:48pm | Permalink
I don't know why the fate of a bunch of too-big-to-fail banks that happen to operate in Ireland should be tied to the destiny of the country's citizens and tax-payers.
You either believe in the free market or not. If you do, there is a well-established way of dealing with defunct institutions. If the creditors of these banks don't like it, tough. Let them move to the Chinese model of doing business - over there.

[Zapatista]

Even though I voted no to Lisbon I would have considered myself pro-Europe up until recently. The 'blended' 5.8% interest rate (which means the EU lent to us at a higher rate) has changed my mind completely. Our idiotic politicians got us shafted by the EU idiotic politicians.

I still consider myself pro-Europe. It's an easy thing to attack you on if you complain once about it once.

I complain about ireland all the time but no one ever calls me Irish-skeptic.

Europe has/had such potential.

[bcarrier]

Muppet ...I was pretty vexed about the 5.8% rate as well particularly if it was replacing the ECB overnight 1% money or ultimately covering German or French banks who could seemingly borrow at about half that rate. However as they havent shut down the overnight ECB money into Irish Banks ( which was 1.5 times the net bailout). So maybe we just need to see what unfolds. The blended rate including the ECB overnights is much lower ( maybe 2.6%) and maybe some of what was done was for the German electorate's benefit. There can be little doubt that it is all undemocratic and leading to more power within the EU and ECB. In the meantime the country does need to sort its own shit out . FF need to go and never come back but I cant say I think much of the alternative(s). FG moves to buy votes by maintaining pensions and restating the minimum wage just smacks of FF lite to me. The rest havent a clue imo. 

[Declan]

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/the-imfeu-bailout-deal-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cthis-way-to-the-gas-ladies-and-gentlemen%E2%80%9D/

Long but worthwhile article

[Bogball XV]

Muppet ...I was pretty vexed about the 5.8% rate as well particularly if it was replacing the ECB overnight 1% money or ultimately covering German or French banks who could seemingly borrow at about half that rate. However as they havent shut down the overnight ECB money into Irish Banks ( which was 1.5 times the net bailout). So maybe we just need to see what unfolds. The blended rate including the ECB overnights is much lower ( maybe 2.6%) and maybe some of what was done was for the German electorate's benefit. There can be little doubt that it is all undemocratic and leading to more power within the EU and ECB. In the meantime the country does need to sort its own shit out . FF need to go and never come back but I cant say I think much of the alternative(s). FG moves to buy votes by maintaining pensions and restating the minimum wage just smacks of FF lite to me. The rest havent a clue imo.

Yeah give it a chance.  Personally, I'm not displeased with the IMF's plan thusfar (with the caveat being that I believe we will rid ourselves of the banks debts at some stage over the next year or two).  I like the structure, I like that somebody from outside will be examining the numbers, maybe even someone who understands them.  I like that they have experience garnered all over the world of how tax and spending works in other countries.

Regarding the EU/ECB, I think we have to be grateful to the EU for the changes in legislation that make it more difficult for Irish employers to take advantage of their employees as they have done up until the last 10-15 yrs.  We should acknowledge the improvements in basic working and human rights that have come about since we have allowed Brussels to dictate what these should be.  How many rights would workers have, would women in the workplace have if FF/FG and their cronies in big business had been setting the agendas?  For them, the bottom line would have been all that mattered.

I heard some of the guff spouted by FG and Labour today and it was as unimpressive and uninspiring as I have come to expect, there were a few half decent ideas in there, but really, I think the troika of ECB/IMF/EU are preferable.

There are probably some things I would prefer to see an Irish govt make decisions on, but I can't think of them off hand.  If we look at our European neighbours, they may not have as high a standard of living as us, but they have a much higher quality of life.  Boston or Berlin? Maybe it's time to change the question?  Dublin or Berlin?  And for me, the answer is Berlin.

[bcarrier]

I think the troika of ECB/IMF/EU are preferable

Its a sad state of affairs but for time being Id agree. The only decent fresh proposal I have heard  was SF's phone mast tax. That's a no brainer imo.

[armaghniac]

The only decent fresh proposal I have heard  was SF's phone mast tax. That's a no brainer imo.

A no brainer for luddites.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The only decent fresh proposal I have heard  was SF's phone mast tax. That's a no brainer imo.

A no brainer for luddites.

Luddites. Or those that have had their brains fried by untaxed (but obscenely profitable) surreptitious microwave radiation.

[armaghniac]

Luddites. Or those that have had their brains fried by untaxed (but obscenely profitable) surreptitious microwave radiation

.

The mast broadcasts to the phone and the phone broadcasts to the mast. It seems to me that the one held up to your ear is more likely to do harm and the fewer masts there are the more powerfully the phone has to transmit. So in areas with few masts, like South Armagh for instance, a whole generation of teenagers are having their brains fried because their luddite "leaders" are campaigning against masts.

[Main Street]

Now post defeatism has set in.
Post defeatism is the era after 2 years of abject shapes of surrender  by Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, the surrender  of the national resources to a financial elite. Post defeatism is the era when the people look at the good cop IMF/bad cop EU bailout of EU banks and say it could have been worse - survivalist mentality- Irish people are very good at that. 'Ah sure look at how well we did in the EU' even after being ridden rock solid for 2 years and have the country mortgaged passed the point of penury. 'Ah sure at least the EU have a plan',   sure they do 

In the early 80's they came up with the plan to increase production but freeze and reduce real wages.
So how to make that work?   How can people spend more?  Overproduction led to the small crash of 1987. Then came the beginning of the Greenspan plan - lower the interest rates - create debt to create demand.
And we all know where that eventually led.

Now we get to the EU plan of recovery. The banks /investor/risk taker are sacred in the plan.  Never mind that all over the world we have seen examples of failed banks where deposits are guaranteed and the rest of the Bank assets distributed to pay off the claimants.  The EU does not consider that, they hold the lender as sacred and not only that, the people must compensate the lender for the failure/collapsing of any part of his loan.
Not starting from a good spot are we. The old much maligned money lenders just use to bend a few thumbs, break a leg of the borrower, the EU come in and demand that the family and wider family pay up.

Then we have a plan of recovery for the people to pay off this new burden. That burden is composed of the lost market value of assets in Ireland. That market value was fantasy, yet real Euro money was printed to cover it.
Instead of burning 40% -  70% of the  bonds  that the fantasy Euro money was based on,  or devalue the Euro,  Instead of that, the EU have ensured that the Irish people sacrifice real value to compensate lenders for the loss in their fantasy assets values.
What's the great plan that the EU have to make this work?  regressive taxation - slash public spending, invent new charges.
Where is the plan?  The public's purchasing capacity will diminish and demand will drop further. 
In the 1930's the people faced similar hardships but they did not have the levels of personal debt, consumer debt is so high now and the public has used up all its collateral.
Freeing the credit markets won't end the recession. We are now in a economy  which is only starting to unravel the levels of personal debt and have also decided to increase the sovereign debt by 1000%  at the same time. 
There is no plan for recovery. The EU have a plan to recover as much as they can and that includes  wipe out cash reserves and strip the remaining value of public owned assets.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Now post defeatism has set in.
Post defeatism is the era after 2 years of abject shapes of surrender  by Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, the surrender  of the national resources to a financial elite.

Cop yourself on, when over the last 2 years has Fine Gael been in power. Unless you want to add Labour, Sinn Fein, the Greens, the Independents, the rest of the left and right wings, the Trade Unions, IBEC, the Banks, the Regulators, all State Institutions, the Religious and the entire Irish nation into that list.

The ones to blame are Fianna FAIL, the buck stops there, their Green sidekicks are less than nothing.

[Rossfan]

FG came out with a re hashed version of FF's ( IMF's??) Budget plan yesterday.
That'll change things alright 

[muppet]

FG came out with a re hashed version of FF's ( IMF's??) Budget plan yesterday.
That'll change things alright 

I take it you want FF to remain in power then?