The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[seafoid]

FG seem to be moving things up a gear with Noonan clarifying the budget details are irrelevant but that the sum cut isn't and Bruton bringing bonds into it and then saying they wouldn't cut the minimum wage. It shows that not all is lost and that once FF get shown the door there will be some fresh thinking.
Hopefully that will give people some reassurance that politics hasn't failed entirely even though FF has.

[fearbrags]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-divided-dail-unites-to-give-itself-a-pay-rise-2410792.html

[Bogball XV]

At this rate I think Bavaria will win the All-Ireland before Mayo or Galway.

Haven't you heard, Mayo has been pledged to Bavaria if the loans are not repaid in full. Not the wurst!

Of course Ulsters got an over-burdened civil service and a divided society, Leinsters got a huge debt burden and the two Brians, while Mayo has the Oil & Gas reserves and fishing territory to a huge chunk of the North Atlantic and the most beautiful corner of the planet for all those Deutchlanders to retire. Mayo has got something to offer.

I'll give you €2.

€2 is a bit steep!

but what about all the dolly birds in the orange dresses?

[Declan]

I think RTÉ are reading it wrong in that report. I was listening and I took Amadeo's comments about bond holders sharing the pain to be a reiteration of Angela Merkel et al's statements of a couple of weeks ago about FUTURE bonds. They were at pains then to point out that this did not apply to currently held bonds and that the speculators must be baled out on all existing liabilities

That would be my understanding as well.

We cannot afford this and whoever says to me at the door that we will separate the public deficit from the bank debt and tell them to get lost has my vote

[Zapatista]

FG seem to be moving things up a gear with Noonan clarifying the budget details are irrelevant but that the sum cut isn't and Bruton bringing bonds into it and then saying they wouldn't cut the minimum wage. It shows that not all is lost and that once FF get shown the door there will be some fresh thinking.
Hopefully that will give people some reassurance that politics hasn't failed entirely even though FF has.

They had an opportunity to do that by backing SFs no-confidence motion but they shit themselves. Coulda woulda shoulda. They have had more opportunities to bring down the Government and then do what they want than hot dinners.

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1125/breaking18.html

Bond yields hit new high

Irish 10-year bond yields rose above 9 per cent today after LCH Clearnet increased the cost of trading the country's securities for the third time in as many weeks.

At 1.53pm, the yield was at 9.011 per cent, up 0.147 per cent. The spread to the bund was 630.7 points.

What will it take to put an end to the incompetence? No one believes the two Brians. After last week finally even their own cabinet and propaganda publications can't trust them.

[Bogball XV]

I think RTÉ are reading it wrong in that report. I was listening and I took Amadeo's comments about bond holders sharing the pain to be a reiteration of Angela Merkel et al's statements of a couple of weeks ago about FUTURE bonds. They were at pains then to point out that this did not apply to currently held bonds and that the speculators must be baled out on all existing liabilities

That would be my understanding as well.

We cannot afford this and whoever says to me at the door that we will separate the public deficit from the bank debt and tell them to get lost has my vote

the comments etc about future bond holders sharing the pain are very strange and make no sense.  Bondholders are investors who get paid a premium for lending money, that interest rate is their reward for taking on risk.  If the loan cannot be repaid, they take pain.  That's how it's always worked in the past and how it presumably will work in the future.  The only reason there is a difference in the irish situation is because of our guarantee, that will presumably not be replicated by anyone, ever, in the future, so what's all the bluster about?

[Bogball XV]

Ah c'mon muppet, you cannot call our income tax system extreme right-wing. I doubt there's a more left wing income tax system in the EU. In fact, as you said yourself, it was too left wing as far too many people pay no tax whatsoever - and that had to be done because dole was too high.

8% of workers earn over €75,000 and they contribute 60% of all income tax.

People earning €350 per week didnt have to pay one cent in tax. That was just totally unsustainable. Steady increases over the next 4 years will see them paying €11 a week in tax from 2014. I'd imagine the dole decreases will be similar.

Hound, you have to remember that whilst low income individuals did not pay direct tax, our indirect taxes were amongst the highest in Europe.  That in itself is inequitable, our overall tax burden was, iirc, a little lower than the European average, but not significantly lower.  Our direct tax burden was one of the lowest in Europe and indirect one of the highest.
You can say that indirect taxes are fairer in that they are discretionary and that those who pay them are those who should, but in fact since lower income people tend to spend all of their income, they are being hit on practically all expenditure.  Wealthier people were able to save their salaries if they wished, to invest in personal pensions, to invest in property etc, many of these options also awarded significant tax breaks. 

[seafoid]

I went to a discussion today in Zurich about investment opportunities in Europe and the continental giving it spoke about the "high political risk attaching to Ireland". Another hole in the efficient markets hypothesis. FG are going to push through the budget but how many people know that ? 

I don't think people making investment decisions have the full picture. This is how disasters happen.

[Hardy]

Just to give ourselves a break - now that we may be about to export financial pestilence to Europe and wider we need to console ourselves that we've given some good stuff to the world in our time as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZ0eZ196SM

[Capt Pat]

So what happens now to the money the IMF gave us. It goes to the banks and they do what with it. They hand it back to the people they borrowed it from. Where will that leave us.

A brief synopsis and accurate figure please.

[Bogball XV]

I heard a good solution today from Emmet Oliver (Indo business guy), he reckons that if and when the pressure comes on Spain and it looks like Italy is next on the hit list, the only solution will be for the Eurozone to start issuing bonds, in other words for all the sovereign borrowing for eurozone countries to be consolidated and issued jointly.  This will have the advantage of being backed by Germans and French (if that's such an advantage) etc.  The drawback is that the overall risk profile and therefore interest rate will be raised, the germans won't be able to secure their 2.5% anymore, but it shouldn't go beyond 3.5%??  Anyway, it's obviously, politically a hard sell, but it seems like the most sensible, or only solution imo.

[bcarrier]

Interesting idea BBXV...dont like it though. Germans would be our rulers.

[Bogball XV]

Interesting idea BBXV...dont like it though. Germans would be our rulers.

As Sir Roger Casement and the 1916 boys would have said, that's bad??

I know, I know......

[Denn Forever]

You gotta smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm-q8F4t74g