The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[give her dixie]

The Irish Times - Monday, November 22, 2010

Minister and priest say pray for economy
A CO WEXFORD priest has joined a Cabinet minister in calling for prayers for a successful outcome to the economic crisis.

Minister for Social Protection Éamon Ó Cuív said prayers were needed because "not everything is in the control of the Government".

He told Highland Radio in Donegal that prayer is "very powerful".

"I believe over the next three weeks there are three things we have to do. There is a budget, the four-year plan and to bring stability to our own fiscal situation and try and pray that this is the end of it."

In an interview with presenter Shaun Doherty, Mr Ó Cuív continued: "Yes, prayer is very powerful because in the end of the day we have to keep at it until we get to stable waters.

"We had thought the previous measures would be sufficient, but because of international . . ."

Mr Doherty interrupted: "The Minister is saying that we should be praying that things get better?"

Mr Ó Cuív responded: "I did say pray. I think people understand the colloquialism because in the end of the day, not everything is in control of the Government."

Although he had not heard of the Minister's exhortation, Fr John Carroll, a curate in Barntown church in Co Wexford, expressed a similar sentiment yesterday.

At 11am Mass, he read out a prayer he had composed which begins: "God our Father continue to make your presence felt among us at this moment in history."

The prayer, which has been posted on the parish's Facebook page, went on to ask that God would "steady our nerve in these days and point out to us the shortcomings of panic and fear alone".

[Bogball XV]

They've said set a date now for a general election in the second half of January. (Or else we walk now, seems to be the implication).

I don't understand why they feel that by passing the budget first, they're doing the country a great service.

I was told a long time ago that they'd walk when they felt that they might be able to recover some ground with people because of the brave and principled decision they'd taken to walk - I don't know who's been advising them, but this aint going to win them any brownie points either.

The election isn't cut and dried either, there's an amazing reticence to vote for FG floating around, I suspect they're going to regret that missed opportunity to change leader during the summer.  Taoiseach Gilmore??

[Bogball XV]

where does this end? Portguese 10 yr bonds have broke 7% in recent times though stabilised for the moment. From reading a few economic blogs it seems it is only a matter of them before they require bailout.

Then lies Spain with 20% unemployment and more pertinently 1 trillion euro of debt.

If Spain goes there is simply not enough money in the IMF/EU fund. And thats before you consider Italy...

How would Ireland be funded if the bigger countries go under?? Am i missing something??

It's definitely a very worrying time WS, if this stopped at ireland and stabilised then we wouldn't be in too bad a state.  I don't know if it will work though, there's no obvous reason as to why it would.  The rest of the PIGS aren't in much better shape than us, in fact, but for the guarantee, we'd be in a relatively healthy state.

What happens when the euro collapses?  What might save it is that it's hardly in the interests of any speculators to see such a currency collapse as the worldwide panic would wipe out incredible amounts of wealth.

As a very prescient Lone Shark told us 2 years ago (when gold was about $900 an ounce) buy gold, and not the certificates. 

[give her dixie]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

[muppet]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

To do what, steal some of the debt?

I think we should start listening (as we should have done a long time ago) very carefully to the likes of Kelly and Kinsella. The Government and Irish media are treating them as some sort of financial extremists but they are the closest thing we have to people who understand what is happening.

Lenihan insists that he has done everything right and that the experts agree with him. The evidence suggests the complete opposite yet we are still stuck with Lenihan and his experts and their woeful decision making.

Portugal is in the news again and Spain is looming over the horizon. I am thinking we shouldn't actually touch any EU/IMF money for as long as possible. The announcement alone might keeps the banks open long enough to restructure.

Today's Sesame Street is brought to you by the number €90 Billion and the word:

con·ta·gion  (kn-tjn)
n.
1.
a. Disease transmission by direct or indirect contact.
b. A disease that is or may be transmitted by direct or indirect contact; a contagious disease.
c. The direct cause, such as a bacterium or virus, of a communicable disease.
2. Psychology The spread of a behavior pattern, attitude, or emotion from person to person or group to group through suggestion, propaganda, rumor, or imitation.
3. A harmful, corrupting influence: feared that violence on television was a contagion affecting young viewers.
4. The tendency to spread, as of a doctrine, influence, or emotional state.

[Zapatista]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

To do what, steal some of the debt?

It's owned by the public and if they want to protest inside it then fair play to them. I hope they get in there. I'd like to see the place demolished, safely.

[muppet]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

To do what, steal some of the debt?

It's owned by the public and if they want to protest inside it then fair play to them. I hope they get in there. I'd like to see the place demolished, safely.

I think it should be turned into a museum, a sort of house of social, economic and political horrors.

The Dáil should be moved to somewhere along the Shannon. All our TDs could be put up in the many ghost estates in Roscommon which the State already owns, thus removing the need for any allowances for Ivor Callelly and co to abuse.

[Franko]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

To do what, steal some of the debt?

It's owned by the public and if they want to protest inside it then fair play to them. I hope they get in there. I'd like to see the place demolished, safely.

So you'd have to fork out for a new one??  Strange logic.

[Bogball XV]

I think we should start listening (as we should have done a long time ago) very carefully to the likes of Kelly and Kinsella. The Government and Irish media are treating them as some sort of financial extremists but they are the closest thing we have to people who understand what is happening.

Kinsella has never impressed me tbh.

[Bogball XV]

BBC 24 showing live coverage of protests at Leinster House.
People trying to get into the building.

To do what, steal some of the debt?

It's owned by the public and if they want to protest inside it then fair play to them. I hope they get in there. I'd like to see the place demolished, safely.

i suppose that'd help provide stimulus for the building industry!!

[muppet]

I think we should start listening (as we should have done a long time ago) very carefully to the likes of Kelly and Kinsella. The Government and Irish media are treating them as some sort of financial extremists but they are the closest thing we have to people who understand what is happening.

Kinsella has never impressed me tbh.

He is not very articulate and for example didn't come across very well on Prime Time when Rabbitte memorably ranted at Pat Carey. The problem is that while Rabbitte expertly delivered a rant that night, Kinsella mumbled sometimes incoherently, but what Kinsella was saying was alarming in the extreme. He said this bailout would 'break the economy'. Sadly we all remember the programme for the rant.

[Main Street]

Generally people in Ireland in vote on sentiment, not on the rationale of party policy.
The biggest problem has been the lack of an effective alternative strategy to the default acceptance of what constitutes sovereign debt.  But by a quirk of what passes for democracy, FG/Lab will be able to claim a mandate for their policies after the election. At best the difference in strategy between all the political parties may lie between how the beans are gathered from the people to pay off the new sovereign debt mountain.

I see that the Iceland constitution had a clause in it, whereby the people could reject a government bill in a referendum. That bill directly relating to how the Government were committing the State to a certain level of debt. The government were mandated to go back and renegotiate the debt. This is an extreme measure to protect the people from a government acting against the common perception and also the constitutionally protected interests of the State.

None of the political parties had a strategy how to deal with the Bank collapse. None of them have offered effective alternatives to the governments plan.  Fine Gael in particular are content just to use the opportunity to get back into power. Labour will have little more effect than the Greens have had with FF, or the Liberal party have in their coalition in the UK.
Many people will be voting to oppose Fianna Fail. They will not be voting for an alternative outlined clear plan on how to deal with this sovereign debt. If FG were serious about a clear plan, any plan (not necessarily a best plan) then they would have held onto George Lee.

[Zapatista]

So you'd have to fork out for a new one??  Strange logic.

Feel good factor. It would lift the entire country. Besides, political reform should cut the TD by half and reduce staff by80%. No need for it. They can meet in St Lukes.

[muppet]

Generally people in Ireland in vote on sentiment, not on the rationale of party policy.
The biggest problem has been the lack of an effective alternative strategy to the default acceptance of what constitutes sovereign debt.  But by a quirk of what passes for democracy, FG/Lab will be able to claim a mandate for their policies after the election. At best the difference in strategy between all the political parties may lie between how the beans are gathered from the people to pay off the new sovereign debt mountain.

I see that the Iceland constitution had a clause in it, whereby the people could reject a government bill in a referendum. That bill directly relating to how the Government were committing the State to a certain level of debt. The government were mandated to go back and renegotiate the debt. This is an extreme measure to protect the people from a government acting against the common perception and also the constitutionally protected interests of the State.

None of the political parties had a strategy how to deal with the Bank collapse. None of them have offered effective alternatives to the governments plan.  Fine Gael in particular are content just to use the opportunity to get back into power. Labour will have little more effect than the Greens have had with FF, or the Liberal party have in their coalition in the UK.
Many people will be voting to oppose Fianna Fail. They will not be voting for an alternative outlined clear plan on how to deal with this sovereign debt. If FG were serious about a clear plan, any plan (not necessarily a best plan) then they would have held onto George Lee.

Not 100% fair. At an early stage FG had proposed a 'good bank' rather than the bad bank (NAMA) strategy. This looks like what will now happen with what's left of the banks here. Also it is not reasonable to criticise non-government proposals as it must be obvious that they, like the rest of us, were not given the full facts on how bad things were. Their policies were conjured in an information vacuum. Even FF are claiming this now even though everyone else would have had a lot less info than them.

[Zapatista]

Generally people in Ireland in vote on sentiment, not on the rationale of party policy.
The biggest problem has been the lack of an effective alternative strategy to the default acceptance of what constitutes sovereign debt.  But by a quirk of what passes for democracy, FG/Lab will be able to claim a mandate for their policies after the election. At best the difference in strategy between all the political parties may lie between how the beans are gathered from the people to pay off the new sovereign debt mountain.

I see that the Iceland constitution had a clause in it, whereby the people could reject a government bill in a referendum. That bill directly relating to how the Government were committing the State to a certain level of debt. The government were mandated to go back and renegotiate the debt. This is an extreme measure to protect the people from a government acting against the common perception and also the constitutionally protected interests of the State.

None of the political parties had a strategy how to deal with the Bank collapse. None of them have offered effective alternatives to the governments plan.  Fine Gael in particular are content just to use the opportunity to get back into power. Labour will have little more effect than the Greens have had with FF, or the Liberal party have in their coalition in the UK.
Many people will be voting to oppose Fianna Fail. They will not be voting for an alternative outlined clear plan on how to deal with this sovereign debt. If FG were serious about a clear plan, any plan (not necessarily a best plan) then they would have held onto George Lee.

What part of the FG plan did you think wasn't effective? Or the SF plan for that matter?