The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[Hound]

I have to agree, My house growing up was FF house and i always voted FF, but never again, i personally can never forgive them for the shambles that our country now finds its self in. As for my parents they feel the same way, FF are finished as a party i reckon, as in 30 years time, young families like mine will still be paying off the legacy of this debacle, although listening to the radio yesterday it was said that over 1500 people were out canvassing for them in Donegal, most of them were from outside the county, lemmings and a cliff spring to mind.

But rightly or wrongly we regularly vote for people, not parties.

I am sure there will be lots of Donegal people who want a FG/Lab government, but who will vote for O'Domhnall of FF in this election - because its him they want representing them in Dublin. The FG candidate seems totally out of his depth and the Lab candidate is an imbecile. The fact that they couldnt muster a decent candidate between them in what should be a great opportunity for the people to have their say, might be an indicator of their incompetence.

[Billys Boots]

But rightly or wrongly we regularly vote for people, not parties.

Folks, it's our fault (not Cowen's, not Bertie's, not Lenihan's) and until we stop passing the buck and take responsibility for our vote, elections will change nothing.  FFS, the morons are going to elect Doherty in Donegal - what's that going to change?  Luckily there'll be a General Election in January and he won't get long in Kildare St. 

[Bogball XV]

But rightly or wrongly we regularly vote for people, not parties.

Folks, it's our fault (not Cowen's, not Bertie's, not Lenihan's) and until we stop passing the buck and take responsibility for our vote, elections will change nothing.  FFS, the morons are going to elect Doherty in Donegal - what's that going to change?  Luckily there'll be a General Election in January and he won't get long in Kildare St. 

he'll probably get in again in January though.  In fairness to Doherty, he is quite articulate and seems to be a fairly decent candidate. 
Sinn Fein seem to be attracting most of the decent new candidates, why is that?

As you say the people do bear some responsibility, but not for voting for the gombeens on the list, it's for allowing these gombeens to be the only options. 

How many of us would or have ever considered running for office?  If stories I've heard are correct, it was only a matter of turning up to a few local cumman meetings in a row before you'd a decent chance of being selected for a council post in some counties.  Local meetings attracted maybe 4 or 5 people, it wouldn't have been too hard to secure a nomination there, unless you were a particularly obnoxious individual, although that didn't do many of our incumbents any harm.

[Declan]

Does this sound familiar??

Riffling through Hoover's papers, one sometimes has the strange feeling that the President looked upon the Depression as a public relations problem -- that he believed the nightmare would go away if only the image of American business could be polished up and set in the right light.

Faith was an end in itself; "lack of business confidence" was a cardinal sin. Hoover's first reaction to the slump which followed the Crash had been to treat it as a psychological phenomenon. He himself had chosen the word "Depression" because it sounded less frightening than "panic" or "crisis."

In December 1929 he declared that "conditions are fundamentally sound." Three months later he said the worst would be over in sixty days; at the end of May he predicted that the economy would be back to normal in the autumn; in June the market broke sharply, yet he told a delegation which called to plead for a public works project, "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The Depression is over."

Already his forecasts were being flung back to him by critics, but in his December 2, 1930, message to Congress -- a lame duck Republican Congress; the Democrats had just swept the off-year elections -- he said that "the fundamental strength of the economy is unimpaired."

At about the same time the International Apple Shippers Association, faced with a surplus of apples, decided to sell them on credit to jobless men for resale at a nickel each. Overnight there were shivering apple sellers everywhere.

Asked about them, Hoover replied: "Many people have left their jobs for the more profitable one of selling apples."

Reporters were caustic, and the President was stung. By now he was beginning to show signs of the most ominous trait of embattled Presidents; as his secretary Theodore Joslin was to note in his memoirs, Hoover was beginning to regard some criticism "as unpatriotic."

Nevertheless, he persevered, pondering new ways of waging psychological warfare. "What this country needs," he told Christopher Morley, "is a great poem." To singer Rudy Vallee, he said in the Spring of 1932, "If you can write a song that will make people forget the Depression, I will give you a medal."
Valee recorded "Brother ,Can You Spare A Dime?"

[Bogball XV]

Does this sound familiar??


Asked about them, Hoover replied: "Many people have left their jobs for the more profitable one of selling apples."

That is frighteningly familiar.

I think the pronouncements this week were akin to the apple selling quote above.

[bcarrier]

How many of us would or have ever considered running for office?  .

Thats a fair question BBXV. I very much doubt if the financially literate posters on here would get elected. Indeed we would probably be told it was accountants who got the country into the mess. WTF do people throw accountants and bankers into the one pot.  Has anyone considered civil service though  ? Can we send Lone Shark into sort out the DoF.

[seafoid]

This is a massive collapse and the whole political system is right in the middle of it. As are most of the financial models used to run the country since 1997.  So many institutions have failed the people who in many cases were themselves deluded.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see things changing over the next few years.   

[Bogball XV]

How many of us would or have ever considered running for office?  .

Thats a fair question BBXV. I very much doubt if the financially literate posters on here would get elected. Indeed we would probably be told it was accountants who got the country into the mess. WTF do people throw accountants and bankers into the one pot.  Has anyone considered civil service though  ? Can we send Lone Shark into sort out the DoF.

As someone who understand how to calculate risks. probabilities and the like, LS would not be welcome in the DOF.

[seafoid]

Historian Diarmuid Ferriter (in the Guardian) articulates what a lot of people think and asks why the taoiseach hasn't taken five minutes to go on TV and address the nation. He wouldn't change our finances, but it would, he says "give an indication that the government thinking of them [voters] as well".

"I think it's devastating genuinely. I know we can talk about the loss of sovereignty, but this is the culmination of two years of complete lack of direction of leadership and it's terrible to think that if it had been approached with these qualities we might not have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into this [rescue].

Why is there no coherent state of the nation speech?

"And it is not extraordinary that, given the scale of the crisis, that we still have not had a coherent statement from the government to the citizens to tell us what is going on. "It would not make a difference in material terms but it would sooth peoples nerves and give an indication that the government is thinking of them as well. "If you look back in history and the whole idea of the Republic was building support through mobilising the so-called men of no property.

"And to me the biggest irony is that we wasted it all gambling on property. That greed around property, there is a very sad symmetry here. From a country that fought land wars to a country that has been destroyed by landlords worse than the 19th century, destroyed by land owners and speculators. "

[Peter Solan the Great]

The untold story of this crisis, and one which may never be told, is the question of what sort of pressure Germany, France and (maybe) Britain put on Ireland two years ago to 100% guarantee the bond holders of the Irish banks. The Irish government at the time was under no legal, moral or economic obligation to give this guarantee - it could have guaranteed domestic deposits and renegotiated the external bonds, which is quite reasonable as all the main Irish banks (all private companies) were insolvent.

The result was that the Irish taxpayer was suddenly in hock to the tune of perhaps 65 Billion euro, borrowed by private banks, from banks primarily in Germany, France and the UK. The German and UK banks in particular at that time were also of course horribly exposed to the US subprime problem and the UK property market. There is little doubt that several very large German banks would have gone under if the Irish government hadn't given the guarantee. And RBS was already at that time in severe trouble (it is one of the biggest bondholders).

It seems likely that enormous pressure was put on the Irish government behind the scenes to underwrite these losses. The result was that the Irish taxpayer, who up to then was under the impression that the country had been running balanced budgets for the previous 15 years or so, found themselves with unpayable debts. And now the Germans and British whine about having to pay to protect Ireland, when it was the Irish taxpayers that were forking out to prevent the collapse of European banks.

[muppet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx4E5tq1Bo&feature=player_embedded#!

About time - Gurdgiev was right and also Karl Dieter on Prime time

IMO Karl Deeter is a spoofer. He wants to sell mortgages on houses and he can't sell them . He was moaning about the banks' new arrangements for people in mortgage trouble on Wednesday. He wants all such mortgages waived. The banks are proposing to cap interest payments to 66% and waive capital repayment for up to 5 years but it wasn't enough for him. who does he think is going to pay for his bailout?

I caught that bit of Prime Time alright, whilst I think that some form of forgiveness will probably be pursued, it's hard to listen to someone with such obvious vested interests as Karl advocate it.  I don't know what the solution is, but kicking it down the road will not solve the problem, unless inflation does take off or we're fcuked out of the euro (not inconceivable).

Small article in the Indo business section today, Trichet hints at interest rate rises earlier than expected.

http://www.independent.ie/business/european/surprise-as-trichet-hints-at-possible-early-rise-in-interest-rates-2427226.html

The PIGS couldn't possibly cope with interest rate rises. Debts that look like tsunamis now will look like the Big Bang if the ECB rate starts rising. We need inflation but the Germans and French will raise rates to stop it.

Two tier euro coming?

[Declan]

Got this mail today


I don't see how any could disagree with the premise that the condition of the
government/state run balance sheets are presently of 'national importance'.

Article 27 of the constitution provides for 'proposal(s) of such national
importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.'

Who doubts that the mechanism of debt relief will be written in a bill and quickly
passed by both houses in the 'national interest'.

The catch is that before signing the bill into law, a majority of the Seanad and
at least one third of the Dail have to sign a petition, present it to the President,
within four days of the bill having been passed.

The President can then decide that, yes, the people should be heard from and
the bill should go before the people.

In light of the IMF record on past national bailouts, this something the people
should know about and be required to consider.

We can expect cuts in government departments, primarily in those that look
after the public good. Socially, environmentally, agriculturally, educationally.

The people are to go through this because the government was instructed
to acquire the debt of about 850 borrowers at a pricetag of E73b.

People need to know that none of this is being done in their interest. In fact,
it is being done against their interest, without their full knowledge and
without their consent.

Is it possible to rally the country's thinkers to help people realize what is
going on?

[bcarrier]

Mary your time has come.

[Evil Genius]

The untold story of this crisis, and one which may never be told, is...

...It seems likely that enormous pressure was put on the Irish government behind the scenes to underwrite these losses. The result was that the Irish taxpayer, who up to then was under the impression that the country had been running balanced budgets for the previous 15 years or so, found themselves with unpayable debts. And now the Germans and British whine about having to pay to protect Ireland, when it was the Irish taxpayers that were forking out to prevent the collapse of European banks.

Now have I got this right?

For 800 years, everything bad which ever happened to poor Oireland was the fault of Da Brits.

Now it's the fault of the Brits and the Germans.

And to think of how yiz stayed so neutral during World War II the Emergency, when half the rest of the world was ganging up agin the Huns.

Still, at least Irish hands are clean - no-one can ever accuse any of your own of doing anything which might screw the economy...

[bcarrier]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c1236fbc-f41e-11df-886b-00144feab49a.html#axzz15llES0gr