The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[seafoid]

So who will the people vote in. Enda would be just as bad. The greens are a waste of space.

FF are exhausted. 14 years in power and everything in bits around their feet. A change is required.  Even if the government ends up taking orders from Brussels.

[Bogball XV]

So who will the people vote in. Enda would be just as bad. The greens are a waste of space.

We don't know that Enda would be just as bad - I admit that I don't think any government will be able to do much to stop this juggernaut, but at least I'd rather see anyone else rather than the incumbents get paid 300k p.a to try and stop it.  I hope that FG and Labour don't end up being sucked into a national govt, I wanted that 2 years ago, in the vain hope that somebody would put the brakes on Lenno, but that boat sailed long ago.
Now, what we need are fresh faces, any faces but those that have been at the trough for the past 13yrs (or 3yrs in the case of Gormley, White and Ryan - 2 of them have their pensions secured, no need to wait around).

[seafoid]

This was on irisheconomy.ie yesterday

The original creditors of the banks, particularly Anglo, have now largely escaped and been replaced by the ECB and others, who have lent money to the banks under a sovereign guarantee. The people who perhaps should have suffered have escaped already.

[Zapatista]

This was on irisheconomy.ie yesterday

The original creditors of the banks, particularly Anglo, have now largely escaped and been replaced by the ECB and others, who have lent money to the banks under a sovereign guarantee. The people who perhaps should have suffered have escaped already.

Should that not read 'replaced by the Irish Tax Payer'?

[seafoid]

The taxpayer has paid for the losses. The bonds are still held by the ECB.
So there is no chance of ever getting anything from the bondholders. 

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1014/1224281062273.html

PENSION FUNDS may be granted more flexibility in funding retirement income, the Minister for Social Protection said yesterday.

Addressing the Irish Association of Pension Funds' annual conference, Éamon Ó Cuív said the proposal was receiving "thorough consideration" by his department, although no decision has yet been made.

The Irish Association of Pension Funds and the Society of Actuaries in Ireland have been lobbying Government to allow the use of sovereign annuities – essentially availing of higher interest rates of Irish government bonds to reduce the overall cost of providing pensions to retired private sector workers.

At present, pension funds are obliged to use only the return on long-term German government debt in calculating their adherence to the minimum funding standard (MFS).

The standard lays down the minimum level of assets that a defined-benefit scheme must hold to meet its obligations to members. While most of those obligations relate to people still in employment, some of whom will not retire for many years, the MFS states that a fund must hold sufficient assets to buy an annuity today to meet the accrued benefits of members in the event of the scheme being wound up.

In assessing the cost of that annuity, they must use the yield on long-term German bonds. However, the historically low yield of such bonds is ratcheting up the cost. As of last night, the yield on German bunds was 2.3 per cent, while equivalent Irish 10-year bonds were offering a 6.4 per cent yield.

Mr Ó Cuív said he was not yet able to tell the industry whether the proposal would be accepted by Government but promised to inform pension funds as soon as possible.

Rachel Ingle, chairwoman of the benefits committee, welcomed the Minister's comments but said a decision on sovereign annuities was required urgently to ease pressure on pension funds.

However, another senior industry source said there was still considerable doubt on whether the change would be allowed, saying practical market sensitive issues remain to be overcome. Chief among these is how to address in any legislation the theoretical possibility of a sovereign default.

This is my take on the above. The pensions have assets of €45 Billion. The government have told them the funding requirements have gone up to a level higher than anywhere else on earth. 80% of the pensions cannot achieve these requirements and in theory will be shut down by the (Government appointed lackies) Pensions Board.

Miraculously though the 'industry' has come with a solution. If the law could be changed to allow the pension buy Irish Government Bonds (or some other name to disguise this) the Government would then get the Pensions Board to remove the draconian funding requirement. This of course would mean the Government gets access to new funding and our Bond auctions would be 'oversubscribed'.

Other countries that have done this simply seized the pensions and declared marshall law to quell the inevitable social unrest.

This being Ireland, our Government march out the social partners and other vested interests, and call it 'industry proposals' while our media say 'no comment' and our compliant little people aren't even aware of whats happening.

[seafoid]

Muppet

Bund yields have gone through the floor due to shenanigans elsewhere such as quantitative easing in the US which has driven down the cost of borrowing in a vain attempt to get Yanks spending again. The use of Bund yields to value pensions might have been fine pre 2008 but now it is making pensions simply unaffordable.  Lots of the cosy assumptions used pre 2008 have to be revised. If nothing is done there won't be any more defined benefit pension schemes. Who benefits then ? 

[muppet]

Muppet

Bund yields have gone through the floor due to shenanigans elsewhere such as quantitative easing in the US which has driven down the cost of borrowing in a vain attempt to get Yanks spending again. The use of Bund yields to value pensions might have been fine pre 2008 but now it is making pensions simply unaffordable.  Lots of the cosy assumptions used pre 2008 have to be revised. If nothing is done there won't be any more defined benefit pension schemes. Who benefits then ?

Are the Irish Bonds the only possible instrument in the world that our DB schemes can be put into to survive?

The Government are using our pensions to delay the IMF. That just means that it will be 18 months instead of 8 until they are called in, except that the pensions will be gone as well by then.

[seafoid]

Muppet

Bund yields have gone through the floor due to shenanigans elsewhere such as quantitative easing in the US which has driven down the cost of borrowing in a vain attempt to get Yanks spending again. The use of Bund yields to value pensions might have been fine pre 2008 but now it is making pensions simply unaffordable.  Lots of the cosy assumptions used pre 2008 have to be revised. If nothing is done there won't be any more defined benefit pension schemes. Who benefits then ?

Are the Irish Bonds the only possible instrument in the world that our DB schemes can be put into to survive?

The Government are using our pensions to delay the IMF. That just means that it will be 18 months instead of 8 until they are called in, except that the pensions will be gone as well by then.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the IMF.  The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland and this is just one example. If you wanted to use another bond it would have to be denominated in Euro so you could take your pick but most of the other yields are down near bunds. Maybe Italy might give a bit of relief.  The whole pensions model is banjaxed at the moment.  With a 10 year equity bear market and interest rates on the floor there is nowhere to hide.

When the current economic system eventually collapses it will be triggered by something financey like this.

[bcarrier]

The taxpayer has paid for the losses. The bonds are still held by the ECB.
So there is no chance of ever getting anything from the bondholders. 

I dont understand this ...are there not bonds being traded in second hand market ( bought at discount by Mr Chelsea etc) .
Is it not a case of the bondholders getting something from Ireland ? We have their money and we cant pay it back.

[muppet]

Muppet

Bund yields have gone through the floor due to shenanigans elsewhere such as quantitative easing in the US which has driven down the cost of borrowing in a vain attempt to get Yanks spending again. The use of Bund yields to value pensions might have been fine pre 2008 but now it is making pensions simply unaffordable.  Lots of the cosy assumptions used pre 2008 have to be revised. If nothing is done there won't be any more defined benefit pension schemes. Who benefits then ?

Are the Irish Bonds the only possible instrument in the world that our DB schemes can be put into to survive?

The Government are using our pensions to delay the IMF. That just means that it will be 18 months instead of 8 until they are called in, except that the pensions will be gone as well by then.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the IMF.  The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland and this is just one example. If you wanted to use another bond it would have to be denominated in Euro so you could take your pick but most of the other yields are down near bunds. Maybe Italy might give a bit of relief.  The whole pensions model is banjaxed at the moment.  With a 10 year equity bear market and interest rates on the floor there is nowhere to hide.

When the current economic system eventually collapses it will be triggered by something financey like this.

Irish, European or Global?

[Bogball XV]

Muppet

Bund yields have gone through the floor due to shenanigans elsewhere such as quantitative easing in the US which has driven down the cost of borrowing in a vain attempt to get Yanks spending again. The use of Bund yields to value pensions might have been fine pre 2008 but now it is making pensions simply unaffordable.  Lots of the cosy assumptions used pre 2008 have to be revised. If nothing is done there won't be any more defined benefit pension schemes. Who benefits then ?

Are the Irish Bonds the only possible instrument in the world that our DB schemes can be put into to survive?

The Government are using our pensions to delay the IMF. That just means that it will be 18 months instead of 8 until they are called in, except that the pensions will be gone as well by then.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the IMF.  The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland and this is just one example. If you wanted to use another bond it would have to be denominated in Euro so you could take your pick but most of the other yields are down near bunds. Maybe Italy might give a bit of relief.  The whole pensions model is banjaxed at the moment.  With a 10 year equity bear market and interest rates on the floor there is nowhere to hide.

When the current economic system eventually collapses it will be triggered by something financey like this.

Irish, European or Global?

i'd imagine global - if it's any consolation, we weren't the only ones to be taken in by this massive pyramid scheme

[muppet]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anglos-drumm-i-did-not-act-alone-2383012.html

And another one says that their actions were carried out in the full knowledge of both the Central Back and the Financial Regulator. We have to assume he is including the deception of the markets by moving €7Billion from IL&P into and back out of Anglo. That means that both of the CXs at the time claim the authorities knew and it seems inconceivable that they didn't tell their bosses, Cowen and Lenihan, especially at the time of the guarantee.

[bcarrier]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anglos-drumm-i-did-not-act-alone-2383012.html

And another one says that their actions were carried out in the full knowledge of both the Central Back and the Financial Regulator. We have to assume he is including the deception of the markets by moving €7Billion from IL&P into and back out of Anglo. That means that both of the CXs at the time claim the authorities knew and it seems inconceivable that they didn't tell their bosses, Cowen and Lenihan, especially at the time of the guarantee.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on. Maybe these discredited CXs are saying they told the CB and FR because they are more interested in protecting bond holders than the irish state.

[muppet]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anglos-drumm-i-did-not-act-alone-2383012.html

And another one says that their actions were carried out in the full knowledge of both the Central Back and the Financial Regulator. We have to assume he is including the deception of the markets by moving €7Billion from IL&P into and back out of Anglo. That means that both of the CXs at the time claim the authorities knew and it seems inconceivable that they didn't tell their bosses, Cowen and Lenihan, especially at the time of the guarantee.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on. Maybe these discredited CXs are saying they told the CB and FR because they are more interested in protecting bond holders than the irish state.

Maybe they say they had the approval of the CB and FR because no two CXs in their right minds would have been involved in the movement of the €7 Billion to Anglo to deliberately deceive the markets, unless they had received some comfort from above, would they?