The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[muppet]

The Corporation tax thing should help concentrate minds. Which is it to be, a property tax the same as most everywhere else in Europe or a corporation tax rate the same as most everywhere else in Europe?

armaghniac we have a property tax. It's called Stamp Duty and it paid for the last decade's worth of public services.

[armaghniac]

from Indo article  on Davy economic report

"The broker has also updated its macro-forecasts following a virtual collapse in global trade since its last projections in December.

"We now expect the volume of Irish gross national product (GNP) to shrink by 7pc this year (previously -4.1pc) and 4.4pc next year (previously -0.5pc), thanks in a large part to significant downgrades to our export forecast." But Mr White added that the country's main task is to stop the rise in the budget deficit with austere measures required immediately."

Ouch! That's an additional 7% (3% this year +4% next year) wiped off the economy by the end of 2010 since the last prediction in December, this is largely due to world circumstances as trade has fallen. It is going to be quite a bit worse, are people ready for this?  

armaghniac we have a property tax. It's called Stamp Duty and it paid for the last decade's worth of public services.

In the future we need less stamp duty and more regular annual tax, so that it doesn't go up and down suddenly.

[muppet]

In the future we need less stamp duty and more regular annual tax, so that it doesn't go up and down suddenly

If you introduce an annual property tax there wont be any Stamp Duty for a long time, not that the signs are good anyway. Landlords will pass it on to tenants who will join owner/occupiers as the only people paying for such a tax. The Land League is why we don't have such a tax nowadays in Ireland and I am amazed we want to go back to that.

Some of the massive Stamp Duty raised over the years was used to increase public spending with no gain in efficiency or productivity in return. Now that source has dried up public spending needs to be curbed, not new scams to keep feeding wasteful public finances.

[bcarrier]

There is also VAT on new build housing in Ireland ( none in Uk) .

[orangeman]

FT.com

Looks like any bailout for Ireland will come from the EU and not the IMF.

That would suggest higher taxes all round including Corporate Tax. So much for voting no to Lisbon, it won't matter if we have to go cap in hand.

Those were the days, when Irish politics was all about securing money from Europe and then spending it on roads to Castlebar.

[/b]

Eaten bread is soon forgotten !

[Zapatista]

FT.com

Looks like any bailout for Ireland will come from the EU and not the IMF.

That would suggest higher taxes all round including Corporate Tax. So much for voting no to Lisbon, it won't matter if we have to go cap in hand.

Those were the days, when Irish politics was all about securing money from Europe and then spending it on roads to Castlebar.

[/b]

Eaten bread is soon forgotten !

It was never about securing money from Europe. Europe got it's share.

[armaghniac]

The Land League is why we don't have such a tax nowadays in Ireland and I am amazed we want to go back to that.

There were rates for 100 years after the Land League. The 6 counties has rates and it doesn't seem to have caused social decline, why are we different from other countries in this respect? Mind you water should be charged for directly, rather than as a tax.

Some of the massive Stamp Duty raised over the years was used to increase public spending with no gain in efficiency or productivity in return. Now that source has dried up public spending needs to be curbed, not new scams to keep feeding wasteful public finances.

Some of it was used to increase public sector wages to be sure, in part because people needed to be able to buy those expensive houses. Some was used to introduce improved public service provision. But much of it was used to reduce taxes below where they would otherwise be so that 40% of people pay no income tax whatsoever, some tax must be collected from somewhere to make up for this. Unless we totally become a different country then we will have to take in a reasonable proportion of GNP in tax.

[muppet]

The Land League is why we don't have such a tax nowadays in Ireland and I am amazed we want to go back to that.

There were rates for 100 years after the Land League. The 6 counties has rates and it doesn't seem to have caused social decline, why are we different from other countries in this respect? Mind you water should be charged for directly, rather than as a tax.

Some of the massive Stamp Duty raised over the years was used to increase public spending with no gain in efficiency or productivity in return. Now that source has dried up public spending needs to be curbed, not new scams to keep feeding wasteful public finances.

Some of it was used to increase public sector wages to be sure, in part because people needed to be able to buy those expensive houses. Some was used to introduce improved public service provision. But much of it was used to reduce taxes below where they would otherwise be so that 40% of people pay no income tax whatsoever, some tax must be collected from somewhere to make up for this. Unless we totally become a different country then we will have to take in a reasonable proportion of GNP in tax.

Charging for water consumption sounds reasonable. As would scrapping car tax and increasing the excise on fuel.

I think the figure is around 34% of all workers pay no tax, that can't continue especially when most of those are on the streets campaigning for the 6.5% that pay half of all income tax to pay more, to make it equitable.

[Zapatista]

The Land League is why we don't have such a tax nowadays in Ireland and I am amazed we want to go back to that.

There were rates for 100 years after the Land League. The 6 counties has rates and it doesn't seem to have caused social decline, why are we different from other countries in this respect? Mind you water should be charged for directly, rather than as a tax.

Some of the massive Stamp Duty raised over the years was used to increase public spending with no gain in efficiency or productivity in return. Now that source has dried up public spending needs to be curbed, not new scams to keep feeding wasteful public finances.

Some of it was used to increase public sector wages to be sure, in part because people needed to be able to buy those expensive houses. Some was used to introduce improved public service provision. But much of it was used to reduce taxes below where they would otherwise be so that 40% of people pay no income tax whatsoever, some tax must be collected from somewhere to make up for this. Unless we totally become a different country then we will have to take in a reasonable proportion of GNP in tax.

It could come from water charges.

[Zapatista]

Charging for water consumption sounds reasonable. As would scrapping car tax and increasing the excise on fuel.

Would that not be more of the low base consumer tax which helped us into this situation?

[muppet]

Charging for water consumption sounds reasonable. As would scrapping car tax and increasing the excise on fuel.

Would that not be more of the low base consumer tax which helped us into this situation?

Surley you don't believe that all this happened because we didn't have a property tax??

[Zapatista]

Not at all. We are running around looking for tax increases because our low base intake has led to a huge fall in revenue. It also meant those able to pay more payed the same as those unable to pay. We are venerable to rapid declines because joe bloggs acts with protectionism. If the excise on fuel increases we will just drive less generated no more (or maybe no less). If we had have had a concentration on income tax the tax intake would be more secure but we have concentrated on digital TVs and garden machinery.

[muppet]

Not at all. We are running around looking for tax increases because our low base intake has led to a huge fall in revenue. It also meant those able to pay more payed the same as those unable to pay. We are venerable to rapid declines because joe bloggs acts with protectionism. If the excise on fuel increases we will just drive less generated no more (or maybe no less). If we had have had a concentration on income tax the tax intake would be more secure but we have concentrated on digital TVs and garden machinery.

Those unable to pay paid nothing. 6.5% of workers paid 50% of all income tax. How is that the same?

[muppet]

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2009/excheqjan09.pdf

Government finances for Jan 2009 compared with Jan 2008. From €4.6B down to €3.7B.

On page 2, the left is the tax take and on the right is the spending of various depts.

Income tax held up but is partially due to the levy and also that the rise in unemployment is only taking off now.

Stamp Duty has collapsed funnily enough. I'd like to see this or any other government tell people who spent €30-40,000 on stamp duty in the last few years, to buy a house that is worth far less than their mortgage, that they now have to pay an annual tax on it.

[Lecale2]

You're not that keen on the auld property tax then Muppet?