The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[Bogball XV]

It didn't admit that it couldn't last, had it done then it might have looked at the implications for banks etc.

Sadly, i don't think the government understood that this wouldn't last, I really don't.

[muppet]

I'm still lost, think I know the company, but not getting the link - are you certain that the FF TD is involved in the company?  Presuming he has been involved in controversy over his business holdings before? Is the spelling of the TD and the person connected to the company not different?

Firstly I am not certain there even is any TD invloved at all. It is a just rumour.

Secondly you may be right. I assumed it was the same person but it may not be, though the TD very is definately a shareholder in a property developers.

[Donagh]

Bit boring really, had a fair idea Gannon would be there, Ross and Reilly not surprises either, but can't think of any TD directly linked.

Frank Fahey (allegedly)

[Rossfan]

FF TD involved with property developers.....Ahhh Never ...

[ludermor]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=6869.150

As per Donagh post i see Fahey has been named as one of the golden circle.How many pies does he have his fingers in?
Never knew he was involved with Shannon homes.

Again sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain what exactly the 'golden circle' have done wrong?

[Rossfan]

A bit like a butcher gives 10 special customers €1,000 loans to use to buy meat from him over the next few months using the meat as collateral. The  butcher then shows his missus the amount of sales the shop had over that period and she thinks they have a real profitable business.
The customers then have no money to pay back the loans and the mate is et so no collateral.

[muppet]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=6869.150

As per Donagh post i see Fahey has been named as one of the golden circle.How many pies does he have his fingers in?
Never knew he was involved with Shannon homes.

Again sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain what exactly the 'golden circle' have done wrong?

That looks like it's another Frank Fah(e)y.

The TD version has declared to the Oireachtas in the past that he is a shareholder in another developers but it wasn't disclosed how many shares he held.

I would be surprised if the TD version would have the collateral for such a sizeable loan.

[Bogball XV]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=6869.150

As per Donagh post i see Fahey has been named as one of the golden circle.How many pies does he have his fingers in?
Never knew he was involved with Shannon homes.

Again sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain what exactly the 'golden circle' have done wrong?

That looks like it's another Frank Fah(e)y.

The TD version has declared to the Oireachtas in the past that he is a shareholder in another developers but it wasn't disclosed how many shares he held.

I would be surprised if the TD version would have the collateral for such a sizeable loan.

Yeah, I was trying to find the SIPO declarations online last night, but couldn't - are they online?  I don't think it's the same person, but you never know!!

[Gnevin]

Restart talks or face strikes, Government told

   
By Anne-Marie Walsh Industry correspondent

Monday February 23 2009

A PUBLIC sector union leader has warned that unions will have "no choice" but to strike in the absence of a Government invitation to return to the negotiating table.

Public Service Executive Union (PSEU) leader Tom Geraghty also indicated that they might accept the pension levy -- but only with major changes to protect the lower paid.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions said the main purpose of the national demonstration of 120,000 workers on Saturday was to spark a return to negotiations after talks collapsed earlier this month.

If there is no sign that the Government is open to a major renegotiation of the hike in pension contributions by Tuesday -- when the ICTU executive council decides on its next step -- it is likely that unions may re-ballot or even act on their current mandate for industrial action.

The union for lower-paid civil servants, the Civil and Public Services Union, has already decided to hold a work stoppage on Thursday that could cripple key services, including dole and passport offices.

Mr Geraghty's PSEU, which represents 10,000 executive grades in the civil and public sector, said he expects members will back up to four days of industrial action when it discloses the result of its ballot today.

Teachers unions, representing 55,000 members, will begin balloting this week. Last night, TUI general secretary Peter McMenamin said his union would begin balloting for a strike of up to two days today.

Bigger unions such as Impact, SIPTU and the Irish Nurses Organisation -- which have held off on ballot announcements -- could review their position this week.

"If the Government does not invite us into talks, it will have to escalate into industrial action," said Mr Geraghty.

Talks

"I don't think we have any choice. We are not demanding that the levy is abolished . . . but that does not mean that tweaking it to give €100 back to a few people will be enough.

"We would like the Government to come to us and invite us to talks."

The general secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO), John Carr, said the Government "must come to the table".

He said the weekend march was a vote of no-confidence in the handling of the economic crisis, and the only way to avoid serious industrial unrest was to reconvene social partnership.

The unions' main gripe with the pension levy, which ranges from three percent to 9.6pc of income on top of existing contributions of up to 6.5pc, is that it is disproportionately weighted against workers on lower and middle incomes.

Figures it released show a lower paid worker on €39,000 a year will pay €2,120 a year after tax, while a higher paid worker on €48,000 will pay €2,094.50 a year.

A Government spokesperson did not rule out further talks last night but said measures to cut the public payroll by €1.4bn would not be dramatically altered.

"We've always made it clear that we're open for discussion on these matters," he said.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/restart-talks-or-face-strikes-government-told-1649750.html


Union want and want but have yet to offer anything.

[Bogball XV]

The unions' main gripe with the pension levy, which ranges from three percent to 9.6pc of income on top of existing contributions of up to 6.5pc, is that it is disproportionately weighted against workers on lower and middle incomes.

Figures it released show a lower paid worker on €39,000 a year will pay €2,120 a year after tax, while a higher paid worker on €48,000 will pay €2,094.50 a year.

A Government spokesperson did not rule out further talks last night but said measures to cut the public payroll by €1.4bn would not be dramatically altered.

"We've always made it clear that we're open for discussion on these matters," he said.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/restart-talks-or-face-strikes-government-told-1649750.html


Union want and want but have yet to offer anything.

Looks like another U-turn so.  The union are spinning again, their numbers maybe right, but I'd like to see just how many workers that affects in that way and the individual circumstances of the worker.  What so they want though, one obvious solution would be to restrict pension relief to 20%, that should remove the anomaly and restore equity, I'm sure the higher paid worker would be happy too

[stephenite]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=6869.150
Again sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain what exactly the 'golden circle' have done wrong?

The tribune reported that the Central bank had full knowledge of the deal - so it would appear that this lends a certain legitimacy to it, even it was technically illegal

[Bogball XV]

Again sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain what exactly the 'golden circle' have done wrong?

My take is this:

Quinn had to change his CFD's into shares.  He held 25% via CFD's, he could only afford 15% (see his having to ahem, borrow, from Quinn Insurance in order to fund this).  The other 10% could not be dumped on the market as it would have seen share prices plummet, Fitzpatrick and the Anglo board were in contact with Quinn and in fact I think helped fund his purchase of the 15% too, they then tried to raise a consortium of investors to buy up the other 10%.  Naturally investors were hard to come by, that's why a special incentive was arranged whereby Anglo agreed to loan these guys the money to buy the shares, with the loans mostly secured on the shares they were to buy and with no recourse to the purchaser should things go belly up. 
For the investors this was an almost risk free bet, shares go up they win, shares go down, they don't lose (bar a few quid - €87M of €451 has been repaid).
For the bank this has the effect of letting the market think that investors have confidence in the company, that they have another 450 in extra loan business and most importantly the shares aren't dumped and therefore this should help the shares retain their value.  Unfortunately there are certain circumstances where companies are allowed to buy their own shares and this isn't one of them, so this appears to have been a situation manufactured by Anglo in order to circumvent the law, it was in effect an illegal share support scheme.
I don't know that the golden circle have done anything wrong, but Anglo have almost certainly transgressed and as they facilitated this, they may have too?

[bcarrier]

What about this HSE fiasco ...my understanding is that most heathcare in South has to be paid for wheras in the Uk there is a higher level of  "free care".

In 2003 average cost of NHS was £1250 per head of population in Uk. If we say it has risen by say 40% since and is now £1750 per head this compares unfavourably with the HSE budget of 14.5BN for 4.2 m of population ie 3500 euro per head. The numbers employed seem bloated too ...113,000 equals one HSE employee per 37 people in the country.

Maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding but " Benchmarking" in Ireland seems to have been nothing of the sort.

[bcarrier]

While major wrong doing is Anglos I think the golden circle - as reasonably competent businessmen - should have known this was illegal. In the circumstances the non recourse element of the deal  should be attacked .

[ludermor]

My take is this:
Quinn had to change his CFD's into shares.  He held 25% via CFD's, he could only afford 15% (see his having to ahem, borrow, from Quinn Insurance in order to fund this).  The other 10% could not be dumped on the market as it would have seen share prices plummet, Fitzpatrick and the Anglo board were in contact with Quinn and in fact I think helped fund his purchase of the 15% too, they then tried to raise a consortium of investors to buy up the other 10%.  Naturally investors were hard to come by, that's why a special incentive was arranged whereby Anglo agreed to loan these guys the money to buy the shares, with the loans mostly secured on the shares they were to buy and with no recourse to the purchaser should things go belly up. 
For the investors this was an almost risk free bet, shares go up they win, shares go down, they don't lose (bar a few quid - €87M of €451 has been repaid).
For the bank this has the effect of letting the market think that investors have confidence in the company, that they have another 450 in extra loan business and most importantly the shares aren't dumped and therefore this should help the shares retain their value.  Unfortunately there are certain circumstances where companies are allowed to buy their own shares and this isn't one of them, so this appears to have been a situation manufactured by Anglo in order to circumvent the law, it was in effect an illegal share support scheme.
I don't know that the golden circle have done anything wrong, but Anglo have almost certainly transgressed and as they facilitated this, they may have too?

Cheers for that Bogball.
Starting to have more of an interest at the minute as the client on my job is one of the golden lads.
On another note
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0222/anglo.html
Ryan says  the Government was determined that all the debts would be discharged and failing this any assets provided in security for the loans would come under State control.
How will that work? Will the Gov take over housing estates? Commercial Developments?