The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[bcarrier]

Strange times indeed.

I have heard that those developers/builders/individuals who have run their affairs prudently and have assets / means to pay are getting screwed on fees and margin.

Meanwhile those who are completely overstreched and unable to pay are having interest reduced as the banks do not wish to classify loans as non performing.

[muppet]

Strange times indeed.

I have heard that those developers/builders/individuals who have run their affairs prudently and have assets / means to pay are getting screwed on fees and margin.

Meanwhile those who are completely overstreched and unable to pay are having interest reduced as the banks do not wish to classify loans as non performing.

This problem is going to spread to all of society.

Those who have reasonable mortgages/finances and the ability to pay their way will now have to pick up the tab for the financial meltdown, forcing lots of them into difficulty. Increased taxes and Property taxes on top of PAYE, PRSI, Health levy and all the stealth taxes we have, not to mention the other new taxes being talked about such as Dublin City and Carbon taxes will screw up the country royally.

[the Deel Rover]

Strange times indeed.

I have heard that those developers/builders/individuals who have run their affairs prudently and have assets / means to pay are getting screwed on fees and margin.

Meanwhile those who are completely overstreched and unable to pay are having interest reduced as the banks do not wish to classify loans as non performing.

This problem is going to spread to all of society.

Those who have reasonable mortgages/finances and the ability to pay their way will now have to pick up the tab for the financial meltdown, forcing lots of them into difficulty. Increased taxes and Property taxes on top of PAYE, PRSI, Health levy and all the stealth taxes we have, not to mention the other new taxes being talked about such as Dublin City and Carbon taxes will screw up the country royally.

Yeah the banks are bailed out, the developers are bailed out while the man on the street is made to suffer because of their greed

[Barna Bee]

3 new entities that you will all hear about next week ....S & P , Moody's and Fitch .........looks like Ireland is going to loose it's soverign ratings from these in the next week or so ...especially if the Govt does not apply immediate measures to cover the shortfall in GNP ....not very good news for ireland

This big bail out will really begin to cost the state when the country needs to borrow from the World bank ......expect the recession to last for a lot longer .........

[Barna Bee]

why not pay a tax based on the sq foot of the house .....say 50cents per sq foot per year.....average semi d is about 1,500sq foot ....therefore 750 euro as a tax rate .

The lads with the big houses get hit for more

This is a bit like a Uk style council tax ..

[the Deel Rover]

3 new entities that you will all hear about next week ....S & P , Moody's and Fitch .........looks like Ireland is going to loose it's soverign ratings from these in the next week or so ...especially if the Govt does not apply immediate measures to cover the shortfall in GNP ....not very good news for ireland

This big bail out will really begin to cost the state when the country needs to borrow from the World bank ......expect the recession to last for a lot longer .........

UPDATE 3-Moody's warns Ireland could lose AAA rating

 

By Carmel Crimmins

DUBLIN, Jan 30 (Reuters) - Moody's credit rating agency warned Ireland on Friday it was in danger of losing its prized AAA sovereign debt rating, piling pressure on Prime Minister Brian Cowen to cut spending and shore up the public purse.

The negative outlook echoes a similar warning from Standard & Poor's earlier this month and reflects the dangers of a deepening recession and the government's potentially damaging exposure to the banking sector.

Cowen, already under fire for his handling of the economic crisis, wants Ireland to avoid the fate of fellow euro zone members Greece, Spain and Portugal which have all had their ratings cut by S&P amid buckling public finances.

Moody's senior analyst Dietmar Hornung said if the government secured its targeted 2 billion euros ($2.57 billion) worth of spending cuts in talks with unions, that would be helpful but not sufficient to secure the triple A rating, which Ireland has had since 1998.

'This is just one piece of the puzzle,' Hornung told Reuters in an interview.

'This negative outlook is our opinion as to the likely direction of the Irish rating over the medium-term. You cannot pin it to one thing.'

Even with targeted spending cuts, Ireland is facing a budget deficit of 9.5 percent of GDP this year, more than three times the European Union's limit, as a collapse in the housing market hits crucial property-related taxes and spills over into the broader economy.


RISKIEST ISSUER OF DEBT

Ireland's 440 billion euro guarantee on liabilities of all major Irish lenders, more than twice the country's annual economic output, and its nationalisation of top 3 lender Anglo Irish Bank earlier this month exposes taxpayers to the risk of rising bad debts as the property market keeps spiralling down.

House prices in Ireland fell 9.1 percent last year, according to the permanent tsb/ESRI house price index which on Friday forecast a further 10 percent fall this year.

Moody's and S&P both highlighted this exposure in their negative outlooks.

Fitch, which maintained its stable outlook, warned that its more sanguine view was based on Ireland's relatively low net debt levels and the fiscal cost of financial sector support not exceeding expectations.

The government has said it will invest up to 10 billion euros into its banking sector using money held in the national pension fund.

'This is the first negative ratings action Moody's have taken on a euro zone sovereign for years, although they did previously take Belgium off positive outlook,' said Ciaran O'Hagan, strategist at Societe Generale in London.

Moody's view is that a sovereign's willingness and ability to bail out a bank will often exceed its willingness to pay its own debts. This is because the macroeconomic consequences of a systemic banking crisis will generally exceed the impact of a domestic bond default.

'In the case of highly exposed countries like Ireland and Belgium, this effectively is serious,' said O'Hagan.

Underlining how far sentiment towards the former 'Celtic Tiger' economy has fallen, credit monitor CMA DataVision said on Friday that investors now view Ireland as the riskiest issuer of government debt in the euro zone.

Irish 5-year credit default swaps hit 262.6 basis points on Friday, indicating a cumulative probability of default of 20.6 percent, according to CMA. Greece was previously seen as the riskiest euro zone debt issuer.

The yield spread of 10-yr Irish bonds over core German Bunds -- another measurement of risk -- widened to 228 basis points on Friday following Moody's statement, a session high.

[the Deel Rover]

Strange times indeed.

I have heard that those developers/builders/individuals who have run their affairs prudently and have assets / means to pay are getting screwed on fees and margin.

Meanwhile those who are completely overstreched and unable to pay are having interest reduced as the banks do not wish to classify loans as non performing.

This problem is going to spread to all of society.

Those who have reasonable mortgages/finances and the ability to pay their way will now have to pick up the tab for the financial meltdown, forcing lots of them into difficulty. Increased taxes and Property taxes on top of PAYE, PRSI, Health levy and all the stealth taxes we have, not to mention the other new taxes being talked about such as Dublin City and Carbon taxes will screw up the country royally.

on the issue of property tax if they were to introduce it how would they collect it ?Would you billed once a year? What if like the delvelopers you couldn't be ARSED paying it what would happen?

[muppet]

Strange times indeed.

I have heard that those developers/builders/individuals who have run their affairs prudently and have assets / means to pay are getting screwed on fees and margin.

Meanwhile those who are completely overstreched and unable to pay are having interest reduced as the banks do not wish to classify loans as non performing.

This problem is going to spread to all of society.

Those who have reasonable mortgages/finances and the ability to pay their way will now have to pick up the tab for the financial meltdown, forcing lots of them into difficulty. Increased taxes and Property taxes on top of PAYE, PRSI, Health levy and all the stealth taxes we have, not to mention the other new taxes being talked about such as Dublin City and Carbon taxes will screw up the country royally.

on the issue of property tax if they were to introduce it how would they collect it ?Would you billed once a year? What if like the delvelopers you couldn't be ARSED paying it what would happen?

Why do people always suggest new taxes (that usually don't affect themselves).

We should have accountability for the financial mess as a top prority and we should demand as a minimum efficiency and value for money in the public service.

Making up new taxes for each bad set of figures just compounds the lack of good decision-making and the inefficiency.

[orangeman]

It definitely looks like a UK style rates / property tax is on its way - € 1000 a year per house on average.

[Declan]

.S & P , Moody's and Fitch

Yeah those reputable standard rating agencies that rated all the repackaged subprime mortgages as triple A secure investments - Part of the problem not the solution. Bastards the lot of them.

Any chance anyone could take them all out in Davos this week?

[muppet]

.S & P , Moody's and Fitch

Yeah those reputable standard rating agencies that rated all the repackaged subprime mortgages as triple A secure investments - Part of the problem not the solution. b**tards the lot of them.

Any chance anyone could take them all out in Davos this week?

Get them to launch a few rockets.

[An Gaeilgoir]

why not pay a tax based on the sq foot of the house .....say 50cents per sq foot per year.....average semi d is about 1,500sq foot ....therefore 750 euro as a tax rate .

The lads with the big houses get hit for more

This is a bit like a Uk style council tax ..

I'm begining to think this property tax should be called "envy tax", i am really getting browned off with people slagging off people who did well during the boom years, of course there were loads of chancers who broke the rules and made quick cash. There were alos a lot of ordinary people who did not go on holidays 3 or 4 times a year, buy a new car every year or have the latest designer handbag every month. These people took advantage of the cheap money that was available built up a portfolio of properties, made sacrifices and are now been penalised for their endevours. i for example have 2 properties along with my primary residence... both my self and my wife are on medium incomes, we drive a 99 and a 01 car and have not been on a holiday in 3 years. we have scrimped and saved every penny to be in the situtaiton we are in now. I have friends who during the boom claimed they couldn't afford to buy a house, but they could afford an A3 and A4, prada handbags, 2 or 3 holidays a year but couldnt save up to put a deposit on a house.  it was often joked that myself and the missus been the only two people in the area with cars dating from the last century. I am in the construction industry, i have a trade but changed career about 5 years ago and went back to college and am finishing my degree this summer. I never got any help from anyone to get to the position  i am in now. I dont have a pension as what i am building up, will all going well be my pension. There have been a lot of sleepless nights during the past 4 years all about money, but thankfully it has worked out. Had i put my money into gold or art or wine, there would be no levy, so why is it that property is all of a sudden such a dirty business.Also it really grates me that people are taking such pleasure from seeing people who were doing well now going under especially in the construction industry, i 'm not talking about the large scale developers who owe hundereds of millions, but ordinary people, a lot with not much fromal education finally getting a chance in this country to be entrupenuers and own their own businesses, i remember in the late eighties every one form my area emigrating and the only time we had a football team was st. stephens day when the emigrants were home. I realise that there has to be taxation changes, but let it be fair about it. I have no problem paying tax and in my opinion if there is a property tax on rental properties it will only be added on to the rent, thus increasing costs for renters. But taxing people just becuause they have a large house, regardless of their income or means is madness. There are a lot of millionaires living in small houses with no mortgages and a lot of people with huge morgages and not much income living in huge houses. I know that most of you will completly disagree with me on the above points, but everybodys situation is different and a blanket taxation policy will not be fair or equitable. Thank god i'm not in government.

[Rossfan]

What is  the average charge on a domestic property in the north or in England?
Every report the Govt had on taxation for the last 30 or so years recommended  some type of property tax as is  the norm in most Countries but with BuilderFF in Govt most of the time that was never going to happen here.
They even kept giving tax breaks for houses when there was a bubble going on with astronomical prices being asked and given. The end result is a load of half finished Estates scattered all over Leitrim,Longford and Ros.
Now we have Finneran from Ros, Junior Housing Minister going to lease all the unsold houses for 10 years to use as Social housing. Then after 10 years when prices will have picked up again we'll give the houses back to the Builders to sell.
You couldnt make it up.

[tyronefan]

ireland has a property tax  its called stamp duty   how times do they want to tax us on the same thing. 

do we need so many td's to sit in dublin  we have a td for every 30,000 (approx) people in Ireland  In america thay have a member of congress for every 500,000 people  cut back a bit on the politicians and all the costs they incur would be a good start to saving money and give a break on double taxation

[Tyrones own]

I heard on the news on the way home there that Waterford Crystal has gone in to bankruptcy ... I think 200 jobs gone,
I would have thought that would have been mentioned here, any truth to it?