The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[muppet]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/04/italian-referendum-markets-renzi-braced-no-vote/

[armaghniac]

Euro down 1.5c, €/$ parity might on the cards.

edit: Renzi now resigned.

I'm not sure about this one. At least some of this is a bit like Kenny trying to abolish the Senate here, a lot of the people voting against it were not necessarily trying to overthrow the EU.

[seafoid]

Euro down 1.5c, €/$ parity might on the cards.

edit: Renzi now resigned.

I'm not sure about this one. At least some of this is a bit like Kenny trying to abolish the Senate here, a lot of the people voting against it were not necessarily trying to overthrow the EU.

A cheaper Euro is good news

They are going to have to start restructuring debt. Unless they want the fascists to take over

[seafoid]

Euro down 1.5c, €/$ parity might on the cards.

edit: Renzi now resigned.

I'm not sure about this one. At least some of this is a bit like Kenny trying to abolish the Senate here, a lot of the people voting against it were not necessarily trying to overthrow the EU.

Renzi put a bad case together.
He was very arrogant

they are going to have to tweak the rules to deal with Non perf loans
Cos QE is  not working
And they might as well fund banks with it
While they are at it why not give the EZ a Lender of Last Resort `?

[muppet]

2 years ago, Renzi was the antiestablishment candidate, until he got elected and attempted reform.

Then the far-left and far-right successfully painted him as the establishment candidate and he got mauled.

Who ever coined the phrase 'post-intellectual era' hit the nail on the head.

[seafoid]

2 years ago, Renzi was the antiestablishment candidate, until he got elected and attempted reform.

Then the far-left and far-right successfully painted him as the establishment candidate and he got mauled.

Who ever coined the phrase 'post-intellectual era' hit the nail on the head.

Ditch hurling
Reform is v hard when you have nothing to offer people and there is no growth

[muppet]

2 years ago, Renzi was the antiestablishment candidate, until he got elected and attempted reform.

Then the far-left and far-right successfully painted him as the establishment candidate and he got mauled.

Who ever coined the phrase 'post-intellectual era' hit the nail on the head.

Ditch hurling
Reform is v hard when you have nothing to offer people and there is no growth

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

[armaghniac]

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

I would say there is a difference between not allowing the government make a change, this particular change probably was a mixed bag anyhow, and voting for a change that the government doesn't want.

[muppet]

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

I would say there is a difference between not allowing the government make a change, this particular change probably was a mixed bag anyhow, and voting for a change that the government doesn't want.

It was, but something has to be done to end the stalemate whereby the Italian passes a bill to see it to be sent back by the Senate with a tiny amendment, only for it to be changed in Parliament, sent back to the Senate and returned again, this time with another tiny amendment and on and on ad infinitum.

But regardless, what is the point of electing antiestablishment figures, only to refuse to accept any reforms?

[seafoid]

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

I would say there is a difference between not allowing the government make a change, this particular change probably was a mixed bag anyhow, and voting for a change that the government doesn't want.

It was, but something has to be done to end the stalemate whereby the Italian passes a bill to see it to be sent back by the Senate with a tiny amendment, only for it to be changed in Parliament, sent back to the Senate and returned again, this time with another tiny amendment and on and on ad infinitum.

But regardless, what is the point of electing antiestablishment figures, only to refuse to accept any reforms?

What was the point of electing Trump?
It was Trump
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/22/the-real-trump/

[armaghniac]

But regardless, what is the point of electing antiestablishment figures, only to refuse to accept any reforms?

I support reform, especially of things that will affect other people.

[muppet]

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

I would say there is a difference between not allowing the government make a change, this particular change probably was a mixed bag anyhow, and voting for a change that the government doesn't want.

It was, but something has to be done to end the stalemate whereby the Italian passes a bill to see it to be sent back by the Senate with a tiny amendment, only for it to be changed in Parliament, sent back to the Senate and returned again, this time with another tiny amendment and on and on ad infinitum.

But regardless, what is the point of electing antiestablishment figures, only to refuse to accept any reforms?

What was the point of electing Trump?
It was Trump
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/22/the-real-trump/

This is the ultimate example. They think he will bring back jobs to iron & steel mills and coal mines. That would seem to be very unlikely.

[seafoid]

Blindly voting everyone remotely associated with the 'establishment', out of government, even if they were the antiestablishment candidates the last time, is fun. And it feels good.

But it isn't going to end well. Godwin's Law may have to be upgraded to include ballots.

I would say there is a difference between not allowing the government make a change, this particular change probably was a mixed bag anyhow, and voting for a change that the government doesn't want.

It was, but something has to be done to end the stalemate whereby the Italian passes a bill to see it to be sent back by the Senate with a tiny amendment, only for it to be changed in Parliament, sent back to the Senate and returned again, this time with another tiny amendment and on and on ad infinitum.

But regardless, what is the point of electing antiestablishment figures, only to refuse to accept any reforms?

What was the point of electing Trump?
It was Trump
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/22/the-real-trump/

This is the ultimate example. They think he will bring back jobs to iron & steel mills and coal mines. That would seem to be very unlikely.

Brexit was similar. Taking the piss . Promising people the sun, moon and stars in order to get a crowd of extremists in.
It must be the latest stage of the business cycle

[Declan]

I wonder will the Sugarman book have any traction - It's really scandalous

[muppet]

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1216/839287-italy-prepared-to-pump-15-billion-into-banks/

Italy's government is ready to pump €15 billion into Monte dei Paschi di Siena and other ailing banks, sources have said.

This comes as the country's third-largest lender pushes ahead with a private rescue plan that is widely expected to fail.

The world's oldest bank has until December 31 to raise €5 billion in equity or face being wound down by the European Central Bank, potentially triggering a wider banking and political crisis in Italy.

If needed, the government will pump €15 billion into the Siena-based lender and several other smaller banks to prevent that, two sources close to the matter said.

One source said unlisted regional banks Banca Popolare di Vicenza and Veneto Banca, which were rescued this year by a state-backed fund, would also get support from the state.

The government would make the €15 billion available in a decree on December22, La Repubblica newspaper said, adding that Banca Carige could also benefit.

Italy's banking sector is saddled with €356 billion of bad loans, around a third of the euro zone's total and a legacy of the 2008-2009 global financial crisis when, unlike Spain or Ireland, Italy did not act to help its banks.

Monte dei Paschi di Siena, advised by investment banks JPMorgan and Mediobanca, plans to raise equity to remove €28 billion in bad loans from its books.

The JPMorgan-led plan calls for Monte dei Paschi to raise €5 billion in equity through a share sale and an offer for holders of its subordinated bonds to convert them into shares.

Monte dei Paschi is in the process of renegotiating fees with JPMorgan and the other banks that will try to sell the bank's stock after they walked out of a deal to underwrite the share issue, sources have said.

Back in October, its CEO Marco Morelli had said that commissions for the cash call would only be paid in case of success.

Monte dei Paschi said yesterday that 65% of the share sale would be reserved for institutional investors.

It would also extend its debt-swap offer to include investors who hold €1 billion in hybrid securities known as "Fresh 2008".

It also wants retail investors to convert their subordinated bondholdings, totalling €2.1 billion, into shares.

Italian market watchdog Consob approved the offer last night, a source close to the matter said, paving the way for it to start as early as today.

Another source close to the matter also said Qatar's sovereign wealth fund, which bankers have said could invest €1 billion in the bank, had yet to make up its mind.

If Rome bails out the lender, European Union rules require that private investors share in its losses - a politically dangerous condition for Italy's main ruling Democratic Party given early elections are looming next year.

Hundreds of thousands of ordinary Italians have invested in shares and bonds of local banks. A bailout of four small banks last year hit thousands of small savers.

Italy is in talks with the European Commission over ways to shield retail bondholders who would see their notes converted into shares in the event of a state bailout, sources have said.

As in the case of the four rescued banks, the Commission would allow the government to spare small bondholders only if they can prove they were victims of mis-selling and did not understand the risk in their investment, one source said.