The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[No wides]

How much investment is there in Ireland for trades and apprenticeships, the whole economy is based upon letting huge technology firms pay little or no tax for employment of some of its citizens.  Appealing this decision sums up what the Irish government's priorities are about.

[weareros]

Tim Cook's letter is worth reading http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

Easy forget that they invested here when we were an economic backwater and according to him are the largest taxpayer today in Ireland.

[armaghniac]

Tim Cook's letter is worth reading http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

Easy forget that they invested here when we were an economic backwater and according to him are the largest taxpayer today in Ireland.

I think though this is only partly the point.

Apple's production in the 80s, assembling computers, was a one thing, their present operations another. The general thrust of the taxation arrangement were probably appropriate for the former, less so for the latter.

[TabClear]

How much investment is there in Ireland for trades and apprenticeships, the whole economy is based upon letting huge technology firms pay little or no tax for employment of some of its citizens.  Appealing this decision sums up what the Irish government's priorities are about.

What trades/apprenticeships? If your talking about the traditional trades Would more investment in these have helped the construction industry over the past decade? If anything it might have made things worse.

[muppet]

EUR 13 billion owed by Apple to Ireland according to the European Commission!
Plus interest (running at 8% to 10% depending on the years), which might add another approx EUR 5 billion.

Although it does say "up to 13bn" so there may be some exageration built in, but it's a big number.
The ruling also states that it may not all be due to Ireland - parts of it (and maybe a big part of it) could be due to other EU countries and/or the US.

This will be appealed by Ireland, but in the meantime, Ireland has to collect the money due and hold it in escrow.

The reason for the appeal would be that Ireland would claim the letter of the law that existed at that time was followed. If the Apple IP wasn't in Ireland, then the super-profits couldnt be taxed in Ireland.

I think a problem Apple has is they may not have done enough to support where the location of the IP was. The ruling they got from Ireland seemed to place a cap on Irish profits, which may not have been common practice for other companies with similar structures.

Apple used a Foreign Head Office and Irish branch structure, which was far less commonly used than the Double Irish, which seems to be more robust (to date, the European Commission has not felt the latter constituted state aid)

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

No choice but to appeal it. Can't tax profits that don't belong to Ireland. The technology etc that generated the massive profits never belonged to an Irish resident company or an Irish branch.

Apple seemed to have created uncertainty/vaccuum in terms of where exactly the technology was located - but all Ireland can worry about is itself - doesn't belong to us so we can't tax it.

After appeals/courts, etc, if the EU makes us tax it, then so be it. But  at the very least we have to put a show on to fight it.

Delighted to see some proper perspective on this thread regarding Apple.

This is not as simple as some of the shameless populists, such as Joe Higgins and Joe Brolly, on Twitter (to name just two) would have you believe. Their tweets are right up there with the '£350 a week to the NHS' Brexit campaign.

For a start, do we really want to cheer when the EU Commissioners have decided that our taxation is under their (unmandated) control?

I'd like to read some balanced opinion before completely making up my mind on the rights and wrongs of it.

[Declan]

Delighted to see some proper perspective on this thread regarding Apple.

This is not as simple as some of the shameless populists, such as Joe Higgins and Joe Brolly, on Twitter (to name just two) would have you believe. Their tweets are right up there with the '£350 a week to the NHS' Brexit campaign.

For a start, do we really want to cheer when the EU Commissioners have decided that our taxation is under their (unmandated) control?

I'd like to read some balanced opinion before completely making up my mind on the rights and wrongs of it.

Agreed - This is a decent response that give some food for thought I think and also interesting to note that the apple share price has only dropped by 0.6% on the announcement

 
Statement on the European Commission ruling in relation to the tax arrangements between Apple and the Irish State

Today's European Commission ruling, which demands Ireland claims back taxes in excess of €13bn from Apple, highlights the double standards which exists in our country towards multi-nationals and indigenous business.

While Small and Medium sized enterprises, which employ seven out of every 10 people in the private sector, struggled throughout the downturn, many going to the wall, this multi-national giant was paying the bare minimum in tax.

"It would be totally intolerable for the Irish state to challenge this ruling by the European Commission," said Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy.

She added: "It would require the Minister for Finance to effectively seek to block our Revenue Commissioners from claiming this unpaid tax back."

There was no tax break for Irish businesses doing everything within their power to survive. Instead they and the Irish people had to endure widespread cut-backs.

While the Irish people were forced to tighten their belts Apple, courtesy of the special tax arrangement they'd agreed with the state, lapped up huge profits.

Funding for public services were cut while tax revenue went uncollected. In health, housing, education, transport, local government, and a host of other sectors, the people paid the price. Apple did not.

To put the €13bn into context it equates to almost our entire annual health budget or the total intake from the USC charge for three years. And our projected VAT intake for 2016 comes to just shy of the €13bn mark.

"There was no special treatment for the Irish people and indigenous Irish enterprise when the economic bubble burst. At the same time as Minister Noonan was telling the people to brace themselves for economic turbulence Apple was benefitting from this deal," Said Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy.

And she added that "It's clear that Apple Operations Europe and Apple Sales International could not have generated the profits yielded without the favourable tax rates here in Ireland. "

Deputy Murphy has called on an investigation into how the special tax arrangement with Apple was constructed and subsequent updates to it over the years.


For further information please contact:
Anne-Marie McNally
01-618 3591 / 086-3754315
annemarie.mcnally@socialdemocrats.ie
@amomcnally

[cicfada]

Surely the gov have to be seen to be fighting this ruling, just to look good  to the multinationals, don't they? It's all good and well to have tax harmonisation across the EU but we're a tiny component of that Union and we have to get any competitive edge, we can surely? This could have huge implications for FDI into the country and  along with Trumps proposed corporate tax  changes represent the biggest challenge to keeping those multinationals in this country. By a country mile, the biggest challenge for this gov! Good luck to them, there are an awful lot of jobs riding on multinationals in this country of which mine is one.

[Bord na Mona man]

We'll fight this ruling, but let's not bring in Frank Murphy to find a loophole either...

[muppet]

Surely the gov have to be seen to be fighting this ruling, just to look good  to the multinationals, don't they? It's all good and well to have tax harmonisation across the EU but we're a tiny component of that Union and we have to get any competitive edge, we can surely? This could have huge implications for FDI into the country and  along with Trumps proposed corporate tax  changes represent the biggest challenge to keeping those multinationals in this country. By a country mile, the biggest challenge for this gov! Good luck to them, there are an awful lot of jobs riding on multinationals in this country of which mine is one.

Apple claim they paid €400m in tax, in Ireland, in 2014.

This would be around 1% of their worldwide profits (I think it was £42bn). According to this http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-17/which-companies-paid-most-income-tax-2014 they paid $14bn to the US in taxes that year, or 33% of worldwide profits (though the article doesn't mention this so take this with a grain of salt).

The EU Commission seems to ignore the tax paid in the US and claims that Ireland were due that tax. Am I reading this right?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it.  Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

 

[trueblue1234]

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it. Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

Funny I remember similar arguments being put forward for a certain Fermanagh man who employed similar employment figures but those arguments were shot down and passed of as parochial nonsense.
The bit in black in particular would raise an eyebrow for me, Surely if the tax is owed, then it has to be collected, regardless of whether the overall return is positive? Otherwise are we going to do the same for smaller indigenous companies as well?
(By the way I don't know enough about the tax laws to say if this should be taxed or not, I'm sure they have better informed people than me on the European Commission who have decided that this tax is due, but for the time being Ireland should lift the money and leave the appealing to Apple)

[muppet]

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it. Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

Funny I remember similar arguments being put forward for a certain Fermanagh man who employed similar employment figures but those arguments were shot down and passed of as parochial nonsense.
The bit in black in particular would raise an eyebrow for me, Surely if the tax is owed, then it has to be collected, regardless of whether the overall return is positive? Otherwise are we going to do the same for smaller indigenous companies as well?
(By the way I don't know enough about the tax laws to say if this should be taxed or not, I'm sure they have better informed people than me on the European Commission who have decided that this tax is due, but for the time being Ireland should lift the money and leave the appealing to Apple)

The competent authority is the Irish Revenue.

The EU Commission has now decided that it is the competent authority.

Here is one of the most vocal Commissioners on this subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margrethe_Vestager. She has a degree in Economics but has been a politician since she was 21.

[screenexile]

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it. Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

Funny I remember similar arguments being put forward for a certain Fermanagh man who employed similar employment figures but those arguments were shot down and passed of as parochial nonsense.
The bit in black in particular would raise an eyebrow for me, Surely if the tax is owed, then it has to be collected, regardless of whether the overall return is positive? Otherwise are we going to do the same for smaller indigenous companies as well?
(By the way I don't know enough about the tax laws to say if this should be taxed or not, I'm sure they have better informed people than me on the European Commission who have decided that this tax is due, but for the time being Ireland should lift the money and leave the appealing to Apple)

You're not comparing like with like there or anything close to it!

Quinn was illegally propping up a bank! Apple have been by the book here and it is our own Govt who seem to have stepped out of line with European legislation.

Quinn was not a simple matter of back taxes being owed that he could just pay back. He was a huge factor in the entire economy collapsing around Anglo!!

[trueblue1234]

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it. Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

Funny I remember similar arguments being put forward for a certain Fermanagh man who employed similar employment figures but those arguments were shot down and passed of as parochial nonsense.
The bit in black in particular would raise an eyebrow for me, Surely if the tax is owed, then it has to be collected, regardless of whether the overall return is positive? Otherwise are we going to do the same for smaller indigenous companies as well?
(By the way I don't know enough about the tax laws to say if this should be taxed or not, I'm sure they have better informed people than me on the European Commission who have decided that this tax is due, but for the time being Ireland should lift the money and leave the appealing to Apple)

You're not comparing like with like there or anything close to it!

Quinn was illegally propping up a bank! Apple have been by the book here and it is our own Govt who seem to have stepped out of line with European legislation.

Quinn was not a simple matter of back taxes being owed that he could just pay back. He was a huge factor in the entire economy collapsing around Anglo!!

My point wasn't about the rights and wrongs of Sean Quinn, nor near it. My point was that when issues about job losses in the border countries were raised, it was deemed parochial and not a deciding factor.

And the Irish government are going to appeal it, so much for democracy - f**k the average Joe!

Not that simple.  Apple provide over 4.000 jobs in Ireland.  Estimated 2,500 other jobs are dependent on them.  That's a lot of wages, revenue into our economy.  Now, if we stick them for tax bill they might not necessarily move but if they did then we wouldn't be long shelling out billions in social welfare for all these people.  Also it could scare other multinationals with the same effect.

Also this is the kind of interference that Brexit campaigners talked about.  A crowd in Europe telling our revenue and government how to implement their own rules.

Government need to think carefully in terms of macro effect of this.  While some would have you grab the cash, spend it need to consider will there be unforeseen consequences that might accrue.

If we are satisfied that getting the tax back results in an overall positive return, then go for it. Otherwise, fight the thing tooth and nail.

/Jim.

Funny I remember similar arguments being put forward for a certain Fermanagh man who employed similar employment figures but those arguments were shot down and passed of as parochial nonsense.
The bit in black in particular would raise an eyebrow for me, Surely if the tax is owed, then it has to be collected, regardless of whether the overall return is positive? Otherwise are we going to do the same for smaller indigenous companies as well?
(By the way I don't know enough about the tax laws to say if this should be taxed or not, I'm sure they have better informed people than me on the European Commission who have decided that this tax is due, but for the time being Ireland should lift the money and leave the appealing to Apple)

The competent authority is the Irish Revenue.

The EU Commission has now decided that it is the competent authority.

Here is one of the most vocal Commissioners on this subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margrethe_Vestager. She has a degree in Economics but has been a politician since she was 21.

If the competent authority is the Irish Revenue, why are they being told what they have to do by the EU Commission? And why would they have to follow the Commission's findings? Who has final jurisdiction?

[muppet]

If the competent authority is the Irish Revenue, why are they being told what they have to do by the EU Commission? And why would they have to follow the Commission's findings? Who has final jurisdiction?

This is an unfair competition ruling as far as I can see.

I would be interested to know if the basis of the investigation was a complaint from another company or country, or did the EU Commission just decide that there was unfair competition and investigate themselves.

The same Commissioner is after Google under the same law, but for different reasons. She thinks Google has too much access to info.