The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[armaghniac]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Ireland IS one of the lenders, along with other EU countries, some of which have lower standards of living than Greece.

Ah Ok! I see

So is it directly or through the IMF that countries have lent to Greece?

I was under the impression that large private lenders where the principle suppliers of loans to countries through bonds? Or is the IMF etc also partly funded by these private lenders?

Or am I mistaken that private lenders are limited to the relationship between central banks private banking? Or is there a cross over? (Ireland's recent debacle excluded of course)

Greece hasn't been able to borrow on the markets for years, the private lenders are largely gone. The money here comes from the EU countries and the IMF, Ireland contributes to both, but the bigger proportion is the EU lending.

[omaghjoe]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Ireland IS one of the lenders, along with other EU countries, some of which have lower standards of living than Greece.

Ah Ok! I see

So is it directly or through the IMF that countries have lent to Greece?

I was under the impression that large private lenders where the principle suppliers of loans to countries through bonds? Or is the IMF etc also partly funded by these private lenders?

Or am I mistaken that private lenders are limited to the relationship between central banks private banking? Or is there a cross over? (Ireland's recent debacle excluded of course)

Greece hasn't been able to borrow on the markets for years, the private lenders are largely gone. The money here comes from the EU countries and the IMF, Ireland contributes to both, but the bigger proportion is the EU lending.

Why not? Do the lenders refuse to touch them because they are such a high risk?

[armaghniac]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Ireland IS one of the lenders, along with other EU countries, some of which have lower standards of living than Greece.

Ah Ok! I see

So is it directly or through the IMF that countries have lent to Greece?

I was under the impression that large private lenders where the principle suppliers of loans to countries through bonds? Or is the IMF etc also partly funded by these private lenders?

Or am I mistaken that private lenders are limited to the relationship between central banks private banking? Or is there a cross over? (Ireland's recent debacle excluded of course)

Greece hasn't been able to borrow on the markets for years, the private lenders are largely gone. The money here comes from the EU countries and the IMF, Ireland contributes to both, but the bigger proportion is the EU lending.

Why not? Do the lenders refuse to touch them because they are such a high risk?

Exactly.

[omaghjoe]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Ireland IS one of the lenders, along with other EU countries, some of which have lower standards of living than Greece.

Ah Ok! I see

So is it directly or through the IMF that countries have lent to Greece?

I was under the impression that large private lenders where the principle suppliers of loans to countries through bonds? Or is the IMF etc also partly funded by these private lenders?

Or am I mistaken that private lenders are limited to the relationship between central banks private banking? Or is there a cross over? (Ireland's recent debacle excluded of course)

Greece hasn't been able to borrow on the markets for years, the private lenders are largely gone. The money here comes from the EU countries and the IMF, Ireland contributes to both, but the bigger proportion is the EU lending.

Why not? Do the lenders refuse to touch them because they are such a high risk?

Exactly.

Right I see

HS! What a mess! Seems like a moral Catch 22

But then the debt is not sustainable so can't they just defer the interest until it is and then at least everyone gets something?..... or is it even beyond that?

[muppet]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Ireland IS one of the lenders, along with other EU countries, some of which have lower standards of living than Greece.

Ah Ok! I see

So is it directly or through the IMF that countries have lent to Greece?

I was under the impression that large private lenders where the principle suppliers of loans to countries through bonds? Or is the IMF etc also partly funded by these private lenders?

Or am I mistaken that private lenders are limited to the relationship between central banks private banking? Or is there a cross over? (Ireland's recent debacle excluded of course)

Greece hasn't been able to borrow on the markets for years, the private lenders are largely gone. The money here comes from the EU countries and the IMF, Ireland contributes to both, but the bigger proportion is the EU lending.

Why not? Do the lenders refuse to touch them because they are such a high risk?

Exactly.

Private lenders took a haircut when Greece got debt relief during the last crisis.

[muppet]

Ireland did manage to get its finances and tax collection under control, but it was assumed that we would have sensible fiscal policies to avoid, for example, property booms developing as a reslut of low interest rates. We were supposed to tax the f*ck out of property if prices rose too quickly. We did the opposite and started lecturing Europe and the World as to why this time was different.

Ireland did largely tax the f*ck out of property, although they spent that tax and reduced other taxes rather than regarding it as a windfall to be put to one side.

The property boom could only have been stopped by bank regulation and by the people who give money to banks, notably the shareholders and bondholders, having the sense that the single currency did not mean there was a single risk differential between a bank lending in a property increasing by 30% each year one lending into property market largely rising with inflation. Of course they were right, as the banks were bailed out by the Irish taxpayer.

Ireland reduced taxes everywhere during the property boom, thereby throwing fuel on the fire. Certainly foreign banks were willing to do the same, and should have suffered accordingly (but the ECB wouldn't have it) but we could have put up Stamp Duty, for example, to control it.

[macdanger2]

Sorry for my ignorance Muppet but why exactly would Ireland (or any other country) have to pay for debt relief?

Can the lenders not be forced to write off the debt if Greece doesnt pay, or will this affect all eurozone lending ratings and in turn their interest rates?

Initially it was largely private debt, then with the first Greek bailout the EU / IMF bought the debt at a discounted rate.....not discounted enough by the looks of things though.

[macdanger2]

Ireland did manage to get its finances and tax collection under control, but it was assumed that we would have sensible fiscal policies to avoid, for example, property booms developing as a reslut of low interest rates. We were supposed to tax the f*ck out of property if prices rose too quickly. We did the opposite and started lecturing Europe and the World as to why this time was different.

Ireland did largely tax the f*ck out of property, although they spent that tax and reduced other taxes rather than regarding it as a windfall to be put to one side.

The property boom could only have been stopped by bank regulation and by the people who give money to banks, notably the shareholders and bondholders, having the sense that the single currency did not mean there was a single risk differential between a bank lending in a property increasing by 30% each year one lending into property market largely rising with inflation. Of course they were right, as the banks were bailed out by the Irish taxpayer.

I disagree with that - the section 30, 52, etc.tax reliefs encouraged investors into the property market pushing demand & prices higher

[armaghniac]

Initially it was largely private debt, then with the first Greek bailout the EU / IMF bought the debt at a discounted rate.....not discounted enough by the looks of things though.

Not at all discounted enough. But you had this idea that bondholders shouldn't lose much, in part because they included German and French banks . The IMF would probably have skinned them.

I disagree with that - the section 30, 52, etc.tax reliefs encouraged investors into the property market pushing demand & prices higher

These things didn't help, to be sure. But if the banks had had respect for their shareholders money the damage would have been less.

[macdanger2]

True but they were more interested in their bonuses 

[TabClear]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33372786

Good to see some things haven't changed after the crash. ....😐

[armaghniac]

Ireland did manage to get its finances and tax collection under control, but it was assumed that we would have sensible fiscal policies to avoid, for example, property booms developing as a reslut of low interest rates. We were supposed to tax the f*ck out of property if prices rose too quickly. We did the opposite and started lecturing Europe and the World as to why this time was different.

Ireland did largely tax the f*ck out of property, although they spent that tax and reduced other taxes rather than regarding it as a windfall to be put to one side.

The property boom could only have been stopped by bank regulation and by the people who give money to banks, notably the shareholders and bondholders, having the sense that the single currency did not mean there was a single risk differential between a bank lending in a property increasing by 30% each year one lending into property market largely rising with inflation. Of course they were right, as the banks were bailed out by the Irish taxpayer.

Ireland reduced taxes everywhere during the property boom, thereby throwing fuel on the fire. Certainly foreign banks were willing to do the same, and should have suffered accordingly (but the ECB wouldn't have it) but we could have put up Stamp Duty, for example, to control it.

To what rate would you have put stamp duty? People were paying €30K, €40K, €50K, €60K, €70K of stamp duty on houses and were simply borrowing the whole lot. I'm not saying that other points made are wrong, but that they were less important than the wall of borrowed money.

[LeoMc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33372786

Good to see some things haven't changed after the crash. ....😐

I wonder did Wallace have a name in mind. From Tughans statement it sounds like 1 rogue partner for personal gain.

Tughans said in a statement: "The practice is not linked to any political party nor has it ever made party political donations."

It went on: "We can confirm that a former partner diverted to an account of which he was the sole beneficiary professional fees due to the firm, without the knowledge of the partners.

"We have since retrieved the money and he has left the practice.

Some man tries to nick £7m and it is hushed up. He must have went to the right school or golf club.

[highorlow]

Interesting article on Varoufakis background with 'game theory' from back in Feb.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/17/greeces-varoufakis-may-be-good-on-game-theory-but-theres-no-room-for-game-theory-here/

[TabClear]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33372786

Good to see some things haven't changed after the crash. ....😐

I wonder did Wallace have a name in mind. From Tughans statement it sounds like 1 rogue partner for personal gain.

Tughans said in a statement: "The practice is not linked to any political party nor has it ever made party political donations."

It went on: "We can confirm that a former partner diverted to an account of which he was the sole beneficiary professional fees due to the firm, without the knowledge of the partners.

"We have since retrieved the money and he has left the practice.

Some man tries to nick £7m and it is hushed up. He must have went to the right school or golf club.

Tughan managing partner left ( "resigned") in January very suddenly.

No confirmation the two are linked but it is a bit of a coincidence. ..

Although given the size of the alledged transfer at £7m, it is hard to see how it could have been intended for a politician as that size of transaction leaves footprints.  Equally it seems too large to hope to conceal if you were an individual perpetrating a fraud.

I suspect there is more to come on this story