The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[magpie seanie]

ah it's all a load of bollix. The "market" is a rich mans Paddy Power. Gamblers win and others lose. Leeches like investment managers, brokers, rating agencies, auditors and solicitors take their (massive) cut and encourage others to join the Ponzi scheme by spoofing about robust markets and the like. Fred "the shred" Goodwin was the greatest thing since sliced bread one minute and the next he had to leave in disgrace. At the risk of repeating myself it's all a lod of bollix.

If everyone decided to call all their winnings in at the one time, everything would go t!ts up. There isn't enough to cover all money "invested". The only reason I invest in a pension is because the crowd I work for have to double it. I don't expect anything from it. I'm not convinced the argument about inflation over time either. Tell that to people who invested for the last 30 years and then looked for a pension 5 years ago when they retired and there was nothing there. it's all a load of bollix i tells ya.

I agree. One particular mate of mine and I have always thought pensions are the biggest legal scam out there. A few other mates of ours are actuaries - we give them loads and they genuinely think we're mad. Their big salaries, offices etc have to be paid somehow!

[mackers]

ah it's all a load of bollix. The "market" is a rich mans Paddy Power. Gamblers win and others lose. Leeches like investment managers, brokers, rating agencies, auditors and solicitors take their (massive) cut and encourage others to join the Ponzi scheme by spoofing about robust markets and the like. Fred "the shred" Goodwin was the greatest thing since sliced bread one minute and the next he had to leave in disgrace. At the risk of repeating myself it's all a lod of bollix.

If everyone decided to call all their winnings in at the one time, everything would go t!ts up. There isn't enough to cover all money "invested". The only reason I invest in a pension is because the crowd I work for have to double it. I don't expect anything from it. I'm not convinced the argument about inflation over time either. Tell that to people who invested for the last 30 years and then looked for a pension 5 years ago when they retired and there was nothing there. it's all a load of bollix i tells ya.

There's a lot of truth in what you say but I have to call you on the bit in bold.  If these people are sitting in equity based investments within 5 years of their retirement then they're taking no advice.  You sound like a load of other barstool experts on pensions.  Running pensions down because of the circumstances you have described when a situation like it is easily cured if people got up off your butt and spoke to somebody about it! 

[mikehunt]

ah it's all a load of bollix. The "market" is a rich mans Paddy Power. Gamblers win and others lose. Leeches like investment managers, brokers, rating agencies, auditors and solicitors take their (massive) cut and encourage others to join the Ponzi scheme by spoofing about robust markets and the like. Fred "the shred" Goodwin was the greatest thing since sliced bread one minute and the next he had to leave in disgrace. At the risk of repeating myself it's all a lod of bollix.

If everyone decided to call all their winnings in at the one time, everything would go t!ts up. There isn't enough to cover all money "invested". The only reason I invest in a pension is because the crowd I work for have to double it. I don't expect anything from it. I'm not convinced the argument about inflation over time either. Tell that to people who invested for the last 30 years and then looked for a pension 5 years ago when they retired and there was nothing there. it's all a load of bollix i tells ya.

There's a lot of truth in what you say but I have to call you on the bit in bold.  If these people are sitting in equity based investments within 5 years of their retirement then they're taking no advice.  You sound like a load of other barstool experts on pensions.  Running pensions down because of the circumstances you have described when a situation like it is easily cured if people got up off your butt and spoke to somebody about it!

You need only look to see what Irish Life have done to pensions under their control. These "experts" are paid to make decision on behalf of investors, they also take a cut of any profit. However, any losses incurred are at the expense of the investor. Blaming investor's for investment management incompetence is a bit like Tony Fearon blaming parents for their kids being abused by priests.

[mackers]

I was referring to seeking independent financial advice, a good financial adviser will help you to pick the correct fund closer to retirement. You're referring to fund managers, two completely different things.

[mikehunt]

I was referring to seeking independent financial advice, a good financial adviser will help you to pick the correct fund closer to retirement. You're referring to fund managers, two completely different things.

You're talking about individual pension plans as opposed to group plans. You have little or no say on what your contribution invests in when with a group plan. I'm not certain but would say the majority are in these types of plans. In relation to individuals who invested all money in bank shares and lost everything like Gay Byrne I would find it hard to have too much sympathy. Basic rule of not putting all eggs in one basket. Having said that I didn't hear many financial advisers advising caution or to divest towards the end of the boom. 

[mackers]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

[muppet]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Your position as an individual in a group plan is very weak if it is in deficit. Which most are. Elderfield, post crash added a 15% funding requirement, just like that. Add in the pension levy and the usual 'too much regulation in the crash after too little regulation in the boom' scenario, and things are pretty tough for private group pensions in Ireland.

No problem for public pensions though. Not funded (7% funds f*ck all), no levy on them and no deficit to worry about.

[mikehunt]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

[TabClear]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

What do you do for a living Mike? I'm assuming you do it for free as you seem to have an issue with someone charging for their expertise?

At worst pension pots are a tax efficient means of saving. Nothing to stop most people determining that all their contributions goes into gilts, treasury bonds etc. Long-term though this will tend to generate lower returns than equities. Obviously the markets are cyclical and you can be unlucky but you determine your risk profile. A good financial adviser will assess your risk appetite and advise accordingly.

[TabClear]

I find it amazing listening to the radio every morning (newstalk @ 0630) to hear them talking about stocks, the markets reaction to various things and what the central banks, etc are going to do to calm the markets. As if the markets actually make a difference to the real economy or the average Joe in the street but yet it seems to be high on the agenda for the central banks and the media

You don't have to own loads of sharesto be impacted by the markets. You would be surprised how big a difference a strong market makes to "average Joe". A strong market means

People's pension pots are more secure/larger
Companies are more confident bullish about expansion plans hence more jobs/investment
Large companies can access cheaper debt to invest in jobs/infrastrucure due to higher share price and more institutional investor (i.e. debt providers) confidence

All this confidence in the larger companies does filter through to smaller companies and wages. If the markets are weak or volatile, these instituional investors tend to put money in safer places like gold, treasury bonds etc which do not have the same multiplier effect as investment in large corporates.

A strong market now means pension pots look better but they are no guarantee that the money will be there on retirement.
Ultimately share prices depend on company earnings and if these are overestimated now the share price will come down over time.
A market less shortsighted and more interested in steady growth would be better for the man and the woman  on the street.

Agree with this.Unfortunately however the reality is that most listed companies executives are on 3 to 5 year share option bonuses so it's all about hitting their targets in the short term. Look at the ongoing Tesco fiasco, it's all mainly about accelerating revenues. It even caught Warren Buffett out for hundreds of millions!

[mackers]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

What do you do for a living Mike? I'm assuming you do it for free as you seem to have an issue with someone charging for their expertise?

At worst pension pots are a tax efficient means of saving. Nothing to stop most people determining that all their contributions goes into gilts, treasury bonds etc. Long-term though this will tend to generate lower returns than equities. Obviously the markets are cyclical and you can be unlucky but you determine your risk profile. A good financial adviser will assess your risk appetite and advise accordingly.

100% correct TabClear. Everyone thinks they have to have their pensions in equities but this isn't the case.

[mackers]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

This is the attitude that I was getting at in my original post. The guys on the bar stools won't pay an adviser a couple of hundred quid and moan as their pension pot loses thousands. Sensible stuff.

[muppet]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

This is the attitude that I was getting at in my original post. The guys on the bar stools won't pay an adviser a couple of hundred quid and moan as their pension pot loses thousands. Sensible stuff.

How much would it have been worth to have an advisor worth his salt the night of the Lenihan/Cowan Bank Guarantee?

[mackers]

There's nothing to stop anybody speaking to an adviser about their pension pot within a group plan. If you have a significant period of time to retirement there is generally no need to panic if your fund falls, just wait for the markets to recover.  If you are about to retire it is a very different matter, that's why you should not be in equity based investments, which was my original point.

Do these financial advisers give free advice or are they another leech sucking more blood from your pension pot? Are you an adviser and if so did you see the crash coming

This is the attitude that I was getting at in my original post. The guys on the bar stools won't pay an adviser a couple of hundred quid and moan as their pension pot loses thousands. Sensible stuff.

How much would it have been worth to have an advisor worth his salt the night of the Lenihan/Cowan Bank Guarantee?

No adviser would have known and you know it. As I've said earlier if you have 10 + years to retirement then you would have recouped their losses from that time already if they had the foresight to sit tight. Those who were on the cusp of retirement at the time should not have been exposed to the risk.  Good advisers wouldn't have known what was round the corner ( to think otherwise is stupid), where the adviser earned his/her corn would have been to have taken the client away from exposure to such risk.

[TabClear]

I think the ftse and Dow Jones are at higher levels now than pre recession, could be wrong on that though.Markets are cyclical but the fundamental is that you have to be in for the long-term. Politicians getting involved is always going to increase volatility. Chief execs will look forward to their next share option when making decisions, politicians only look forward to the next election!