The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[muppet]

How then does Norway, the example we should be following, according to those who say we're giving away our oil, manage to collect its 78%?

I think you may be getting close to my point of view that those who say we're giving away our oil don't really know what they're talking about.

Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits (income less expenditure less any prior losses). Where a company ceases petroleum activities in Norway having made an accumulated loss, Norway will give it a refund of 78% of its losses.

This compares to Ireland's rate which varies from 25% to 40% on profits. But we give zero compensation to companies who leave having made an accumulated loss.

This is the key sentence: "Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits".

We will tax at 25%, money we have yet to see from anyone. Talk of it rising to 40% is probably pie in the sky.

[CiKe]

How then does Norway, the example we should be following, according to those who say we're giving away our oil, manage to collect its 78%?

I think you may be getting close to my point of view that those who say we're giving away our oil don't really know what they're talking about.

Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits (income less expenditure less any prior losses). Where a company ceases petroleum activities in Norway having made an accumulated loss, Norway will give it a refund of 78% of its losses.

This compares to Ireland's rate which varies from 25% to 40% on profits. But we give zero compensation to companies who leave having made an accumulated loss.

This is the key sentence: "Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits".

We will tax at 25%, money we have yet to see from anyone. Talk of it rising to 40% is probably pie in the sky.

Are investments in Norway still being made or are we talking about legacy investments? What was tax rate when the investments were made? It may not be possible to get new investment by setting a 78% tax rate.

[Hound]

How then does Norway, the example we should be following, according to those who say we're giving away our oil, manage to collect its 78%?

I think you may be getting close to my point of view that those who say we're giving away our oil don't really know what they're talking about.

Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits (income less expenditure less any prior losses). Where a company ceases petroleum activities in Norway having made an accumulated loss, Norway will give it a refund of 78% of its losses.

This compares to Ireland's rate which varies from 25% to 40% on profits. But we give zero compensation to companies who leave having made an accumulated loss.

This is the key sentence: "Norway taxes petroleum companies at a rate of 78% on their profits".

We will tax at 25%, money we have yet to see from anyone. Talk of it rising to 40% is probably pie in the sky.

The key is Norway refunds 78% of costs incurred, so its the exchequer that takes the bulk of the risk and the bulk of the reward. In Ireland we allow the petroleum companies to take 100% of the risk, and allow them to keep between 60% and 75% of the profits they end up with.

If we haven't seen any tax from petroleum companies, its because they've haven't made any profits!

While, the 40% tax rate is enshrined in legislation, you could argue that it is pie in the sky at the moment, simply because Ireland attract so few petroleum companies to explore, therefore the likelihood of anyone making super profits is very small. 

[Hound]

Are investments in Norway still being made or are we talking about legacy investments? What was tax rate when the investments were made? It may not be possible to get new investment by setting a 78% tax rate.

The 78% tax rate has been in for decades I believe. But Norway would get very little investment if it was a 78% tax rate and nothing else. As I mentioned (but muppet left out because it doesn't suit his agenda), Norway will refund you 78% of your loss if you fail to make profits. That was a huge help in encouraging companies to invest, and ended up building a success record that encouraged more and more exploration.

Despite our so called giveaway rates, we really struggle to find companies willing to fund exploration activities, compared to Norway and UK, who find it much easier to give licences out despite higher tax rates.

(The effective tax rate in Norway would be less that 78% in reality as they also give bonus allowances for capital spend).

[muppet]

Are investments in Norway still being made or are we talking about legacy investments? What was tax rate when the investments were made? It may not be possible to get new investment by setting a 78% tax rate.

The 78% tax rate has been in for decades I believe. But Norway would get very little investment if it was a 78% tax rate and nothing else. As I mentioned (but muppet left out because it doesn't suit his agenda), Norway will refund you 78% of your loss if you fail to make profits. That was a huge help in encouraging companies to invest, and ended up building a success record that encouraged more and more exploration.

Despite our so called giveaway rates, we really struggle to find companies willing to fund exploration activities, compared to Norway and UK, who find it much easier to give licences out despite higher tax rates.

(The effective tax rate in Norway would be less that 78% in reality as they also give bonus allowances for capital spend).

Your 'agenda' insult is interesting because I find the small number of pro-oil/gas company people I encounter always seems to be quite aggressive on the subject. This is particularly the case when you ask them if they have any connection to the industry in any shape or form.

Anyway, I 'left that out' because I have never heard of it. That doesn't mean it isn't true, but a link might be more convincing than a sneer and no source.

My understanding is the oil companies in Norway pay some of the upfront costs regardless, meaning that whether they succeed or not, it still costs them some money. In Ireland if you strike oil or gas, you don't pay tax until everything is paid off. That means you take our oil or gas, and sell it, paying no tax, until you have paid off all of your own costs.

Finally, the statement that we gave it away free is still true. Paying for the infrastructure is one thing, a tax on profits is another, but they still pay nothing for the actual raw material.

[armaghniac]

The oil situation is simple enough. If you have a high chance and know chance of success (Norway) then prospecting is not very risky and you'll go ahead even if there is a highish tax on the profits. If there is a lower or unknown chance of success (Ireland) then you need a decent payoff to make it worth looking in the first place.

[Declan]

How the golden inner circle really works:

A senior executive at Anglo Irish Bank at the time of the bank's collapse has been granted immunity from prosecution arising from the criminal investigations into the bank.
Matt Moran, Anglo's chief financial officer when the bank was nationalised in 2009, received the immunity agreement from the Director of Public Prosecutions about two years ago.
This was before criminal charges were brought against three former bankers as a result of the investigations. Their trial is due to begin early next year.
Mr Moran and his Dublin-based solicitors did not respond to calls and emails to their offices. The DPP would not answer any questions as to why the immunity deal had been granted.
"This office does not comment on individual cases," said a spokeswoman for the DPP. "I would add that the case is of course pending before the courts and due for trial in January 2014."
Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank.
After the bank was taken into State hands, Mr Moran was promoted to the role of director of group finance in February 2009 under new chairman Donal O'Connor before he left the bank later that year.
Mr Moran, who was never a director of the board of the bank, was best known for his "investor relations" role, dealing with shareholders, banking analysts at stockbrokers and the media.
He joined Anglo in 2002 and was a key member of the management team led by chief executive David Drumm after he took up the role of chief financial officer in 2004.

During 2008 he led the bank's ultimately unsuccessful campaign to counteract the negative comment about the bank in the financial community as investors started to bet against the bank's share price.
In recent years the former banker has been working in Luxembourg where he is chief executive of Lombard International Assurance, which offers investments to wealthy clients.
A chartered accountant from Castlebar in Co Mayo, Mr Moran featured in the recently published "Anglo Tapes" recordings of conversations between Anglo executives in 2008. The calls showed how the bank executives struggled to deal with a run on deposits and attempted to deal with the destabilising effect of businessman Seán Quinn's large investment in the bank.

Mr Moran helped set up meetings between Anglo and Fine Gael's Enda Kenny, then leader of the opposition, in late 2008 to push the bank's interests within political circles. This followed the introduction of the State bank guarantee as the financial crisis deepened the government's involvement in the banking sector.
Mr Moran also had contact with former Fianna Fáil TD Beverley Flynn, who like Mr Kenny is from Mr Moran's home county of Mayo, on discussions with the then minister for finance, Brian Lenihan.
The trial of former Anglo directors and executives Seán FitzPatrick, Willie McAteer and Pat Whelan for providing unlawful financial assistance to 16 individuals – 10 long-standing customers of the bank and six members of Seán Quinn's family – to buy shares in the bank is scheduled to begin in January.
Mr Moran liaised with the Financial Regulator and investment bank Morgan Stanley, which was advising Anglo, on the unwinding of Mr Quinn's investment in 2008, a transaction that propped up the share price.

[Declan]

This guy Moran is some beaut alright:

TOM LYONS – 21 JULY 2013

Matt Moran was chief financial officer with Anglo Irish Bank in the final years before it collapsed, costing the State up to €30bn.

He was educated at St Gerald's College, Castlebar, Co Mayo, between 1984 and 1990, and his parents for many decades ran Rocky's Pub, just across the road from Taoiseach Enda Kenny's constituency office.

Mr Kenny undoubtedly knew the Moran family, even if both men have declined to comment on how well they were acquainted.

Mr Moran joined Anglo in 2002 and rose to become its chief financial officer. He was one of a group of young buccaneering bankers who formed around David Drumm when he was made chief executive in 2005.

Mr Drumm wanted to double the size of Anglo in under three years, and he needed men like Moran to help him achieve his goal.

For a while it worked, and Anglo was named by consultants Oliver Wyman as the best small bank in the world in 2007 in a glittering ceremony in Davos, Switzerland.

Then the credit crunch came, and Anglo's share price started its dizzying descent. During this time, Mr Moran can be heard several times on the Anglo Tapes turning the air blue under pressure.

In early 2008 as the world's banks started to run out of cash, he was recorded discussing Sean Quinn – then the country's richest man – who had taken a massive punt on Anglo, with John Bowe, the bank's head of treasury.

"[Quinn] is down just over a bill [€1bn]," Mr Bowe tells Mr Moran on the tapes, "Anybody even f***ing listening to that. It is frightening."

"The market is bigger than any man. It is the great leveller," Mr Moran replies.

"Yeah, it is, isn't it?" Mr Bowe says.

"You stupid c**t [Quinn]. He really put us at risk," Mr Moran whispers back.

In a second tape, this one recorded in September 2008, two months before the "Enda K" emails, Mr Moran is recorded discussing the bank's desperate struggle to get fresh funds.

He and Mr Bowe joke about how they planned to raise €5bn from a British fund manager.

"I can get a bit of drink into him. I might say to him I'd like about €5bn before the 30th [Anglo's year end]," Mr Moran says to Mr Bowe, who laughs.

"Get him to sign the beer mat," replies Mr Bowe, who asks: "Do you think he could give us a one-night stand?"

"If I can promise him there's no STD out of it," says Mr Moran.

This wild conversation is in marked contrast to Mr Moran's calm November emails to Beverley Cooper Flynn, in which he reassures her that Anglo is strong "versus other European peers" and in a "prudent" scenario would lose only about €500m over the next six years while making profits of €10.3bn.

Mr Moran is currently CEO of Lombard International Assurance in Luxembourg. He has for several years refused to comment on Anglo, and declined again last week.

[johnneycool]

How the golden inner circle really works:

A senior executive at Anglo Irish Bank at the time of the bank's collapse has been granted immunity from prosecution arising from the criminal investigations into the bank.
Matt Moran, Anglo's chief financial officer when the bank was nationalised in 2009, received the immunity agreement from the Director of Public Prosecutions about two years ago.
This was before criminal charges were brought against three former bankers as a result of the investigations. Their trial is due to begin early next year.
Mr Moran and his Dublin-based solicitors did not respond to calls and emails to their offices. The DPP would not answer any questions as to why the immunity deal had been granted.
"This office does not comment on individual cases," said a spokeswoman for the DPP. "I would add that the case is of course pending before the courts and due for trial in January 2014."
Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank.
After the bank was taken into State hands, Mr Moran was promoted to the role of director of group finance in February 2009 under new chairman Donal O'Connor before he left the bank later that year.
Mr Moran, who was never a director of the board of the bank, was best known for his "investor relations" role, dealing with shareholders, banking analysts at stockbrokers and the media.
He joined Anglo in 2002 and was a key member of the management team led by chief executive David Drumm after he took up the role of chief financial officer in 2004.

During 2008 he led the bank's ultimately unsuccessful campaign to counteract the negative comment about the bank in the financial community as investors started to bet against the bank's share price.
In recent years the former banker has been working in Luxembourg where he is chief executive of Lombard International Assurance, which offers investments to wealthy clients.
A chartered accountant from Castlebar in Co Mayo, Mr Moran featured in the recently published "Anglo Tapes" recordings of conversations between Anglo executives in 2008. The calls showed how the bank executives struggled to deal with a run on deposits and attempted to deal with the destabilising effect of businessman Seán Quinn's large investment in the bank.

Mr Moran helped set up meetings between Anglo and Fine Gael's Enda Kenny, then leader of the opposition, in late 2008 to push the bank's interests within political circles. This followed the introduction of the State bank guarantee as the financial crisis deepened the government's involvement in the banking sector.
Mr Moran also had contact with former Fianna Fáil TD Beverley Flynn, who like Mr Kenny is from Mr Moran's home county of Mayo, on discussions with the then minister for finance, Brian Lenihan.
The trial of former Anglo directors and executives Seán FitzPatrick, Willie McAteer and Pat Whelan for providing unlawful financial assistance to 16 individuals – 10 long-standing customers of the bank and six members of Seán Quinn's family – to buy shares in the bank is scheduled to begin in January.
Mr Moran liaised with the Financial Regulator and investment bank Morgan Stanley, which was advising Anglo, on the unwinding of Mr Quinn's investment in 2008, a transaction that propped up the share price.

I hope this immunity agreement as has clause in it that it can be revoked if he doesn't squeal like a little piggie?

[trueblue1234]

How the golden inner circle really works:

A senior executive at Anglo Irish Bank at the time of the bank's collapse has been granted immunity from prosecution arising from the criminal investigations into the bank.
Matt Moran, Anglo's chief financial officer when the bank was nationalised in 2009, received the immunity agreement from the Director of Public Prosecutions about two years ago.
This was before criminal charges were brought against three former bankers as a result of the investigations. Their trial is due to begin early next year.
Mr Moran and his Dublin-based solicitors did not respond to calls and emails to their offices. The DPP would not answer any questions as to why the immunity deal had been granted.
"This office does not comment on individual cases," said a spokeswoman for the DPP. "I would add that the case is of course pending before the courts and due for trial in January 2014."
Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank.
After the bank was taken into State hands, Mr Moran was promoted to the role of director of group finance in February 2009 under new chairman Donal O'Connor before he left the bank later that year.
Mr Moran, who was never a director of the board of the bank, was best known for his "investor relations" role, dealing with shareholders, banking analysts at stockbrokers and the media.
He joined Anglo in 2002 and was a key member of the management team led by chief executive David Drumm after he took up the role of chief financial officer in 2004.

During 2008 he led the bank's ultimately unsuccessful campaign to counteract the negative comment about the bank in the financial community as investors started to bet against the bank's share price.
In recent years the former banker has been working in Luxembourg where he is chief executive of Lombard International Assurance, which offers investments to wealthy clients.
A chartered accountant from Castlebar in Co Mayo, Mr Moran featured in the recently published "Anglo Tapes" recordings of conversations between Anglo executives in 2008. The calls showed how the bank executives struggled to deal with a run on deposits and attempted to deal with the destabilising effect of businessman Seán Quinn's large investment in the bank.

Mr Moran helped set up meetings between Anglo and Fine Gael's Enda Kenny, then leader of the opposition, in late 2008 to push the bank's interests within political circles. This followed the introduction of the State bank guarantee as the financial crisis deepened the government's involvement in the banking sector.
Mr Moran also had contact with former Fianna Fáil TD Beverley Flynn, who like Mr Kenny is from Mr Moran's home county of Mayo, on discussions with the then minister for finance, Brian Lenihan.
The trial of former Anglo directors and executives Seán FitzPatrick, Willie McAteer and Pat Whelan for providing unlawful financial assistance to 16 individuals – 10 long-standing customers of the bank and six members of Seán Quinn's family – to buy shares in the bank is scheduled to begin in January.
Mr Moran liaised with the Financial Regulator and investment bank Morgan Stanley, which was advising Anglo, on the unwinding of Mr Quinn's investment in 2008, a transaction that propped up the share price.

I hope this immunity agreement as has clause in it that it can be revoked if he doesn't squeal like a little piggie?

He prob got the immunity agreement on the basis that he doesn't squeal like a pig!! There would be bigger fish than him to fry and it wouldn't surprise me if this was a brokered deal to limit the amount that will come out and how far it went.

[muppet]

Matt Moran only rose to the top level, after the Bank Guarantee, after the revelation of Seanie Fitz's loans and after the Bank was nationalised.

Yes he was CFO, but he was hardly a serious decision maker. "Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank." This statement is true after all of the above happened and when Anglo was already a lame duck.

It is hard to know what the immunity deal is about, hopefully it is in return for assisting a proper criminal investigation into the bigger fish, but who knows? But 5 years on it is hard to be optimistic.

[muppet]

The oil situation is simple enough. If you have a high chance and know chance of success (Norway) then prospecting is not very risky and you'll go ahead even if there is a highish tax on the profits. If there is a lower or unknown chance of success (Ireland) then you need a decent payoff to make it worth looking in the first place.

This is fair enough if you are looking at things exclusively from the point of view of oil/gas exploration. It is a very high risk investment, but there is no shortage of investors as if you win it is literally hitting the jackpot. Especially in Ireland.

But what about the taxpayer? He has this extremely valuable, but difficult to use asset. We offer a regime whereby the speculator, if successful, can pump the OUR gas and oil without paying a single cent for it until he has sold enough of it to cover all of his costs. Then we only take tax on profits, which we do to every other business anyway.

Defenders of exploration seem to argue that paying tax on profits is actually paying for the oil or gas. It isn't.

[Declan]

Matt Moran only rose to the top level, after the Bank Guarantee, after the revelation of Seanie Fitz's loans and after the Bank was nationalised.

Yes he was CFO, but he was hardly a serious decision maker. "Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank." This statement is true after all of the above happened and when Anglo was already a lame duck.

It is hard to know what the immunity deal is about, hopefully it is in return for assisting a proper criminal investigation into the bigger fish, but who knows? But 5 years on it is hard to be optimistic.

You Mayo lads really do stick together don't ye

[muppet]

Matt Moran only rose to the top level, after the Bank Guarantee, after the revelation of Seanie Fitz's loans and after the Bank was nationalised.

Yes he was CFO, but he was hardly a serious decision maker. "Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank." This statement is true after all of the above happened and when Anglo was already a lame duck.

It is hard to know what the immunity deal is about, hopefully it is in return for assisting a proper criminal investigation into the bigger fish, but who knows? But 5 years on it is hard to be optimistic.

You Mayo lads really do stick together don't ye

I want the smoking gun! I don't care if it is a Mayoman caught with it or not, but I want to see some held accountable. Moran was too far down the food chain pre-Bank Guarantee.

[ludermor]

Matt Moran only rose to the top level, after the Bank Guarantee, after the revelation of Seanie Fitz's loans and after the Bank was nationalised.

Yes he was CFO, but he was hardly a serious decision maker. "Mr Moran was the second most senior financial officer at Anglo Irish Bank." This statement is true after all of the above happened and when Anglo was already a lame duck.

It is hard to know what the immunity deal is about, hopefully it is in return for assisting a proper criminal investigation into the bigger fish, but who knows? But 5 years on it is hard to be optimistic.

You Mayo lads really do stick together don't ye

Muppetsarsfields ...