The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[Rossie11]

I work in private sector and am glad they rejected. There is a whole raft of savings that can be made before they go near wages.
Even if they have to near wages it wasn't been done in a fair manner.
It shows what a complete farce of a deal it was when it was rejected for a host of various reasons.
Jack O Connor is totally out of touch with the people he represents yet will continue to hang onto his job and pension
even though the people he supposed to lead reject his deal.

Did anyone else feel sorry for Howlin last night when he was near tears that he had to take a call from the Troika to discuss this? Boo feckin Hoo Brendan

I can imagine what he told them was something along the lines of "dont worry we will have another go at it, similar to Nice and Lisbon 2 and we will have you the answer you want by July"
Instead of telling them we are still living in democracy, this isn't working now what is plan B.

[Hound]

Maybe when the real guilty cartel like Fingers/Fitzp and all the sc**bag developrs start paying the Irish taxpayer what they owe we might get somewhere in this Country.
That will never happen esp when the right wing blueshirts wouldn't countenance a rise in the Social Charge on earnings in excess of €100k p a.
As everyone knows the domestic economy will only pick up when the plain people have a few € in their pockets to spend.
The over €100k people usually have all they want and their excess money goes overseas.
But the right wing answer is to screw the poorer classes and don't dare touch their well heeled mates.
And then they scratch their thick heads and wonder why the domestic economy isn't doing well and blame the public service and "THEUNIONS"

You're forgetting that while the bankers, developers, politicians, etc were building this false boom, a big spin off of this was the decisions to increase public pay to unaffordably high levels for absolutely no reason.

But its certainly not easy for anyone to agree to a wage reduction, especially when things might already be tight.

Extra income tax on the higher paid is not the answer either, they already pay more income tax than most in the EU.

Going to be very interesting to see what happens next.

[Billys Boots]

You're forgetting that while the bankers, developers, politicians, etc were building this false boom, a big spin off of this was the decisions to increase public pay to unaffordably high levels for absolutely no reason.

And that Fianna Fáil 'created' 100,000 public sector 'jobs' that were not really needed (well there was no measured increase in public sector effectiveness as a result), and we're now in a position where it's too expensive to reduce these numbers to effective levels.  Not that I blame public sector workers that are now horrified by the pay cuts that they're expected to carry - they shouldn't.  This post is just a reminder that the current Govt are just trying (and not really succeeding) to clean up FF's mess. 

[highorlow]

Maybe when the real guilty cartel like Fingers/Fitzp and all the sc**bag developrs start paying the Irish taxpayer what they owe we might get somewhere in this Country.
That will never happen esp when the right wing blueshirts wouldn't countenance a rise in the Social Charge on earnings in excess of €100k p a.
As everyone knows the domestic economy will only pick up when the plain people have a few € in their pockets to spend.
The over €100k people usually have all they want and their excess money goes overseas.

This Sinn Fein argument is fantasy economics. The Fat Cat developers created a Fat Public Service which needs to be cut back.

The majority left in this country except the Public Servants have taken a hit since 2010. In fact with grocery's deflating, sun holidays getting cheaper and tins in the off licence reducing all the time in price the Public Servants are likely to be better off.

It's unfair to the community at large that the Public Servants won't do the honorable thing and lump in like the majority of us especially since the larger hit in CP II affected the ones over €65k.

Your answer appears to be tax the private sector more to fund the comfortably employer public sector lifers.

[highorlow]

I thought Jack O'Connor and the SIPTU leadership recommended acceptance of Croke Park II

He did. What I was referring too was his new position as of yesterday. Now that things have gone against him and he miss-judged his own members views he seems to think we can magic up 5 billion without making any cuts to PS pay whatsoever. He was saying this last night on the v brown show.

He reckons we have 2 billion for starters via the promissory note and by having a stimulus package in place worth 7 billion this would 'create' a further 3 billion. VB failed to question where the funds were coming from for this magic 7 billion stimulus. Jack also went back to the trophy homes argument, don't think there are many of these left in the country, again VB let him off the hook.

[Declan]

Anyone any appetite for chasing these boyos??
http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/04/momentum-builds-in-u-s-beyond-to-end-corporate-tax-evasion/

or even these?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-links-to-vast-web-of-secret-offshore-accounts-1.1349456

[Rossfan]

You're forgetting that while the bankers, developers, politicians, etc were building this false boom, a big spin off of this was the decisions to increase public pay to unaffordably high levels for absolutely no reason.

And that Fianna Fáil 'created' 100,000 public sector 'jobs' that were not really needed (well there was no measured increase in public sector effectiveness as a result),

Only the top public service jobs' pay went beyond the bounds of dacency. Most others were only getting rises to try and keep up with the bubble inspired price increases - inflation began rising in 2000 

100,000 extra public service jobs  -- get a bloody grip ladeen.
Firstly the population increased from 3.6 m to 4.4m from 96 to 2011 so there was need for extra  teachers Gardai ,civil Service Health workers etc.
But to say the number increased by 100,000 is of course pure fantasy.

[Rossfan]

Anyone any appetite for chasing these boyos??
http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/04/momentum-builds-in-u-s-beyond-to-end-corporate-tax-evasion/

or even these?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-links-to-vast-web-of-secret-offshore-accounts-1.1349456

No.
Much easier to target Carers or remove the €125 exemption from PRSI.
That way you get to put the boot into the lowest earners while of course insisting that you can't be going around taxing high earners.
Someone said Irish high earners are the highest taxed in the EU ....
I'd like to see the real figures though 

[highorlow]

100,000 extra public service jobs  -- get a bloody grip ladeen.

That figure is incorrect.

Since 2008 the actual number has dropped from a peak of 427,000 in Q4 2008 to 382,000 at the end of 2012 but if you factor in the increments (pay increases) any cost savings on these numbers is cancelled out. We are still paying the same cost or even more for PS pay now than we were in 2008, CP I didn't have any effect whatsoever.

382,000 Public Servants is still top heavy for the size of the place.

*note figs include approx 50k in semi states.

[Billys Boots]

But to say the number increased by 100,000 is of course pure fantasy.

Yep, it's easier to make it up that do your research - pure FF sleeveenism, you should be very proud.

Less than 10 mins research will show you that there were 221,000 (Committee for Public Service Research, IPA 1999) public sector workers in Ireland in 1996.  Are you capable of doing the sums Sleeveen, or do you want me to do them for you? 

[armaghniac]

The majority left in this country except the Public Servants have taken a hit since 2010.

The majority haven't really taken such a hit, wages are increasing, albeit slightly. Household incomes are increasing and unemployment hasn't gone up much in this time. Some extra taxes have come along, but public servants have to pay these also.

[Rossfan]

But to say the number increased by 100,000 is of course pure fantasy.

Yep, it's easier to make it up that do your research - pure FF sleeveenism, you should be very proud.

Less than 10 mins research will show you that there were 221,000 (Committee for Public Service Research, IPA 1999) public sector workers in Ireland in 1996.  Are you capable of doing the sums Sleeveen, or do you want me to do them for you?

Without any inaccurate disgraceful disgusting name calling (unlike you ) -

Table 2.1 - Public service numbers 2001-2009
             2001                    2009
Health     92,996         111,800
Education 73,295         92,887
Justice     12,460          15,142
Defence   11,808          10,895
Civil Service 36,092      38,500
State agencies 11,086 12,313
Local Authorities 32,062 33,898
Public Service 269,799    316,656

Increase of 47,000 in 9 years of which approx 38,000 in Health and Education  most of which I would suggest were as a result of population increases.

[highorlow]

The majority haven't really taken such a hit,

Tell that to the additional 250k people on the dole added to the fact that the majority of workers have been hit with on average 25% pay cuts on top of the additional taxes.

Also the people in general in the construction sector that have to commute over and back to the uk week in week out for work.

[highorlow]

Less than 10 mins research will show you that there were 221,000

so the 100k increase is a correct statement then if the semi state workers are excluded.

big big redundancies coming down the line so. shur that carry on and wastage can't be accepted in any business.

[Rossfan]

"Tell that to the additional 250k people on the dole added to the fact that the majority of workers have been hit with on average 25% pay cuts on top of the additional taxes.
Also the people in general in the construction sector that have to commute over and back to the uk week in week out for work".


Most of the 250,000 extra added to the dole were in 08 and 09.
Most people in multi nationals have been getting increases.
Construction was bound to get fcuked up as it was in an artificial unsustainable bubble accounting for about 25% of GDP which of course was total madness. In those years there were a good number of English working on building here.
90,000 new "units" being built every year for a population of 4.4m. Britain and France were building less than that for 10 or 12 times the population.
Absolute madness all added to by FF via the Galway Tent.