The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

[whiskeysteve]

Muppet, how is this not a default as Ulick stated it? Yes it is 'orderly' but 100bn is almost officially up in smoke here, albeit this has long been priced in by the markets.

Or maybe this is a question of semantics over what is meant by 'burning'?

[muppet]

Muppet, how is this not a default as Ulick stated it? Yes it is 'orderly' but 100bn is almost officially up in smoke here, albeit this has long been priced in by the markets.

Or maybe this is a question of semantics over what is meant by 'burning'?

The €100bn is part the agreed deal. It is absolutely not a burning of bondholders in the 2 fingered we-are-not-paying-up sense being suggested by some. The deal offered was accept the haircut or be burned. 86% have accepted the former. It remains to be seem what happens the rest but they may end up 'burned' in the SF sense of the word.

It is important to note that there is f*ck all chance of this working for Greece regardless of your ideology.

[bcarrier]

There is now a big problem in that the world and his mother thinks there is no longer a moral obligation to pay tax because of "the bankers". Personally I would be happy for someone like Begley to get a hefty financial penalty - I am not sure what the point of sending him to jail is.

[whiskeysteve]

It is important to note that there is f*ck all chance of this working for Greece regardless of your ideology.

Totally agreed

The €100bn is part the agreed deal. It is absolutely not a burning of bondholders in the 2 fingered we-are-not-paying-up sense being suggested by some. The deal offered was accept the haircut or be burned. 86% have accepted the former. It remains to be seem what happens the rest but they may end up 'burned' in the SF sense of the word.

Im still confused here. To be fair, Ulick simply stated Greece has defaulted on 100bn as is the case. "let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn." Not a lie as far as I can see just.

[muppet]

It is important to note that there is f*ck all chance of this working for Greece regardless of your ideology.

Totally agreed

The €100bn is part the agreed deal. It is absolutely not a burning of bondholders in the 2 fingered we-are-not-paying-up sense being suggested by some. The deal offered was accept the haircut or be burned. 86% have accepted the former. It remains to be seem what happens the rest but they may end up 'burned' in the SF sense of the word.

Im still confused here. To be fair, Ulick simply stated Greece has defaulted on 100bn as is the case. "let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn." Not a lie as far as I can see just.

This is about spin. Greece did everything their bailout partners in the Trioka demanded. They played ball and signed up to everything that was asked of them. The Burn the Bondholders philosophy is precisely the opposite.

[Ulick]

Ach muppet come on now, you're playing with semantics, whether they're burnt on a twelfth night bonfire or singed with a zippo, the principle is the same, Greece defaulted and the bondholders didn't get their money. Pity them, should have bought Anglo bonds instead as we're only too happy to pay gamblers even when they lose.

[whiskeysteve]

It is important to note that there is f*ck all chance of this working for Greece regardless of your ideology.

Totally agreed

The €100bn is part the agreed deal. It is absolutely not a burning of bondholders in the 2 fingered we-are-not-paying-up sense being suggested by some. The deal offered was accept the haircut or be burned. 86% have accepted the former. It remains to be seem what happens the rest but they may end up 'burned' in the SF sense of the word.

Im still confused here. To be fair, Ulick simply stated Greece has defaulted on 100bn as is the case. "let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn." Not a lie as far as I can see just.

This is about spin. Greece did everything their bailout partners in the Trioka demanded. They played ball and signed up to everything that was asked of them. The Burn the Bondholders philosophy is precisely the opposite.

Sorry, do not agree with that reading of the situation at all. The Greeks have been notorious for fiddling the figures in the years running up to the crisis and then in the era of intervention from the troika have proven themselves repeateadly to be utterly incapable of imposing the structural reforms demanded of them. Most infamously with the tax collectors themselves striking. Papandreou most certainly did not play ball by calling for a referendum and got the boot for a ex Goldman technocrat.

The bondholders have been told to take their haircut or f**k off otherwise there will be a civil insurrection, perhaps a military coup down the line and certainly no money.

[muppet]

It is important to note that there is f*ck all chance of this working for Greece regardless of your ideology.

Totally agreed

The €100bn is part the agreed deal. It is absolutely not a burning of bondholders in the 2 fingered we-are-not-paying-up sense being suggested by some. The deal offered was accept the haircut or be burned. 86% have accepted the former. It remains to be seem what happens the rest but they may end up 'burned' in the SF sense of the word.

Im still confused here. To be fair, Ulick simply stated Greece has defaulted on 100bn as is the case. "let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn." Not a lie as far as I can see just.

This is about spin. Greece did everything their bailout partners in the Trioka demanded. They played ball and signed up to everything that was asked of them. The Burn the Bondholders philosophy is precisely the opposite.

Sorry, do not agree with that reading of the situation at all. The Greeks have been notorious for fiddling the figures in the years running up to the crisis and then in the era of intervention from the troika have proven themselves repeateadly to be utterly incapable of imposing the structural reforms demanded of them. Most infamously with the tax collectors themselves striking. Papandreou most certainly did not play ball by calling for a referendum and got the boot for a ex Goldman technocrat.

The bondholders have been told to take their haircut or f**k off otherwise there will be a civil insurrection, perhaps a military coup down the line and certainly no money.

Steve what you write is correct and irrelevant. We could also talk about Troy, Sparta and Leonardis etc. but that would be irrelevant.

Regarding what Ulick incorrectly called the burning of the bondholders, the Greeks played ball with the Troika. By playing ball they got the debt written off.

[muppet]

Ach muppet come on now, you're playing with semantics, whether they're burnt on a twelfth night bonfire or singed with a zippo, the principle is the same, Greece defaulted and the bondholders didn't get their money. Pity them, should have bought Anglo bonds instead as we're only too happy to pay gamblers even when they lose.

It couldn't be more different. Your proclamation of Sinn Féin's 'economic illiterates' burn-the-bondholders policy having been proven right by Greece is idiotic for any number of reasons.  The spin you want us to believe is that some brilliant SF-like political party in Greece decided to burn the bondholders and hey presto: €100bn of debt disappeared. You then want us to believe that a SF-like party could do the same here if only we would elect them to power.

The reality is that nothing of the sort happened. The deal was actually imposed on Greece by the Troika and Greece had absolutely no choice.

I have to point out I have absolutely no ideological, moral or otherwise objection to burning bondholders. The problem is the time for doing it is long gone and was completely missed by FF bluffers and in particular their advisors. It should be noted that SF supported the guarantee. To get to a situation where the bondholders, as in Greece, will voluntarily write off up to 75% of the debt, we would have to be economically back to The Famine, as Greece are.

The last, last, last thing we need now are new populist political bullshitters to replace the old ones who got us into this mess.

[lynchbhoy]

muppet, whatever about sf - they are not in gov so dont really count here (they supported the bailout like everyone did as it was the only show in town and since , like a few others have tried to call for defaulting of some degree - I think is the summary of their only relevence in this matter) - while FF were the orchestrators of all of this, fg/lab have been in gov for a year and have had ample oportunity to push for reductions or debt write offs.
they dont seem to have done either - as if they did inda and eamonn would be crowing about it from the rooftops (and these two show up to pulbicise the announcement of a creation of 2 new jobs these days it seems).
my lay opinion here is that these two clowns have been behaving like two class licks and not asking for anything that would help our country more.
the IMF were the ones that got us some respite the last time - its like the tax man telling you that you have over paid your tax and here is a cheque back to you. You will accept it but the bonus was not of your creation !

Greece seemed to be rebelling and in order to have them able to pay back the money injected into their economy and not suffer the ignomy of default - the EU reduced their terms.
They didnt play ball it seems and were rewarded.
We are playing ball and are being left to pay back the whole caboodle.
We need our 'leaders (temporary I hope) to start asking for equality and same kind of terms that greece got.
this would help out our country greatly.

my sideline view of this might be incorrect but thats what I have been taking from these reports on all this craic over the past year or more...

inda better get the finger out- or more apppropriately, get his tongue out (of the eu sphincter...and get us some slack!

[muppet]

muppet, whatever about sf - they are not in gov so dont really count here (they supported the bailout like everyone did as it was the only show in town and since , like a few others have tried to call for defaulting of some degree - I think is the summary of their only relevence in this matter) - while FF were the orchestrators of all of this, fg/lab have been in gov for a year and have had ample oportunity to push for reductions or debt write offs.
they dont seem to have done either - as if they did inda and eamonn would be crowing about it from the rooftops (and these two show up to pulbicise the announcement of a creation of 2 new jobs these days it seems).
my lay opinion here is that these two clowns have been behaving like two class licks and not asking for anything that would help our country more.
the IMF were the ones that got us some respite the last time - its like the tax man telling you that you have over paid your tax and here is a cheque back to you. You will accept it but the bonus was not of your creation !

Greece seemed to be rebelling and in order to have them able to pay back the money injected into their economy and not suffer the ignomy of default - the EU reduced their terms.
They didnt play ball it seems and were rewarded.
We are playing ball and are being left to pay back the whole caboodle.
We need our 'leaders (temporary I hope) to start asking for equality and same kind of terms that greece got.
this would help out our country greatly.

my sideline view of this might be incorrect but thats what I have been taking from these reports on all this craic over the past year or more...

inda better get the finger out- or more apppropriately, get his tongue out (of the eu sphincter...and get us some slack!

LB you are basing the above on the notion that we are a sovereign state free to do as we wish. We aren't, not since the Bank Guarantee. The Dáil is now simply a talk shop with all of the parties pretending that they have some relevance. Enda has no more leverage to reduce the debt than Jedward. Greece's leverage is that they are so broke they are handing their children to charities, i.e. their society is destroyed. And this new bailout still leaves them owing billions.

[muppet]

This is what the burning of only some bondholders would require:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4dc69621aa9f1c89,0

No left true leaning party could even countenance such an act.

[Pangurban]

Eat your Soup and stop whinging, if you had engaged your Brains instead of your Credit Cards, you would not be in the mess. Then you elected a FG/Lab coalition hoping they could improve your lot, how stupid can you get. Soveriegnty comes with a price tag, and you were too mean to pay it, so welcome to the German Empire. They wont suffer fools as tolerantly as your former British masters

[muppet]

muppet, whatever about sf - they are not in gov so dont really count here (they supported the bailout like everyone did as it was the only show in town and since , like a few others have tried to call for defaulting of some degree - I think is the summary of their only relevence in this matter)

The last page or so is about Ulick's boast that Sinn Féin were proven right by Greece's new bailout.

[muppet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ri1PFJ5vTTk

The infamous Promissory Note explained.