Author Topic: Aussie Flu  (Read 3236 times)

magpie seanie

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 05:06:00 PM »
Over a winter there are numerous strains of flu. A flu in October will be different to one in March. How can the jab cover all strains? It can't.

I won't be getting a jab. I think they do far more harm than good.


You couldn't be more wrong. Ridiculous statement to come out with when you have zero evidence to support it.

BennyCake

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 05:09:46 PM »
Over a winter there are numerous strains of flu. A flu in October will be different to one in March. How can the jab cover all strains? It can't.

I won't be getting a jab. I think they do far more harm than good.


You couldn't be more wrong. Ridiculous statement to come out with when you have zero evidence to support it.

Well, is anything in my first paragraph incorrect?

And where's your evidence supporting the jab being good for stopping the flu?

playwiththewind1st

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 05:17:07 PM »
As far as I know, it's not meant to prevent all strains of flu & it can't. They look at what was the most prevalent strain in the southern hemisphere's winter & they base it on that, in the hope of preventing a fair percentage of recipients getting the flu during the following northern hemisphere winter.

lenny

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 05:32:16 PM »
Over a winter there are numerous strains of flu. A flu in October will be different to one in March. How can the jab cover all strains? It can't.

I won't be getting a jab. I think they do far more harm than good.


You couldn't be more wrong. Ridiculous statement to come out with when you have zero evidence to support it.

Well, is anything in my first paragraph incorrect?

And where's your evidence supporting the jab being good for stopping the flu?

What's your theory then? The doctors and pharmaceutical companies in a big conspiracy to sell flu vaccines? The flu jab is given because it works. Vaccines are the only defence we have against viruses and they work very well.

rosnarun

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 05:35:08 PM »
Over a winter there are numerous strains of flu. A flu in October will be different to one in March. How can the jab cover all strains? It can't.

I won't be getting a jab. I think they do far more harm than good.


You couldn't be more wrong. Ridiculous statement to come out with when you have zero evidence to support it.

Well, is anything in my first paragraph incorrect?

And where's your evidence supporting the jab being good for stopping the flu?

not incorrect but incomplete.
every year they update the flu jab with all new known strains so next year the jab will protect against the aussie flu. the cant inoculate against something that hasn't been seen yet . and as for the lad worried about chemicals you need to revise your basic science. but as long as the rest of us get the jab you should be fine .
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Puckoon

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 05:40:57 PM »
At the risk of being thrown in the dungeon as an antivaxer..... Ive a few questions

Is there any good reason for not getting a flu shot?
Is there any point to putting a load of chemicals, preservatives and other crap into my body that I probably wont need?
Do medical professionals play it save and use the law of averages for the population when dealing with individuals and thereby declare that pretty much everyone should get it.
Am I making my immune system weaker in the long term?

None

Rather angled description of the vaccine. Think of a flu shot as insurance for your car/home. Hopefully you never need those either but you avail of their protection. The flu shot usually has the virus itself. That virus is deactivated by miniscule amounts of formaldehyde. Yes. Sounds scary and awful but itís in the parts per tens of millions. Usually thereís an adjuvant like aluminum, again the PPM range. Then thereís some gelatin. A common stabilizer which keeps the vaccine suitable for use between manufacture and administration. Itís usually porcine gelatin so many vaccines will come with a warning for those with pork allergies.

Wish I had pork allergies over xmas!

So can anyone avail of the flu jab? I thought the very young and the old only

Canít speak for at home but yes in the US anyone can, and should get vaccinated. I get it every year (in honesty I havenít this year yet as Iíve just not been organized enough). Many employers bring a team onsite for their employees or you can get it in any pharmacy or doctors office.

If you think about it, the less people with the flu - the better off the very young and the very old are.


Main Street

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 07:06:34 PM »
The effects of a  flu vaccine are only observed on flu vaxxed people and afaics those claims for positive effects are extremely dubious and exhibit some of the worst of bad science and dogma.

When researchers observe what happens to vaccinated folk,  they offer a claimed efficacy value of the vaccine,  it was 10% in Australia recently, last year in the USA a 30% or 40% efficacy was claimed, Those are worthless figures. Why even use the term efficacy when inefficiency is the more germane term? That smacks of deception. And even with those 10% or 30% or 40%  who  do not develop  recognised flu symptoms,  how can anyone claim with a remote degree of certainty that the flu shot made any positive difference to them not developing the flu symptoms?

So why not compare results of  flu vaxxed to non-flu vaxxed? That's not done because the argument offered is that it would be unethical, that it would put people at unnecessary risk. Firstly that argument assumes the flu vaccine has more positive than negative  effects, long before that fact could be even determined in real life experience and secondly the supporting argument for that "ethical" position is the children's seat test, as in, would you put children at risk just to  prove in real tests that a children's seat & belt is more safe in a car than not.
What a stupid argument that is, firstly we can observe statistics, observe real comparisons that have already happened in accidents and also we can do (almost) real tests with dummies.
The flu vaccine is not compared to no vaccine use in real life  because the flu vaccine is assumed to be be superior,  therefore there's no need to do the only real comparison test  that could support that assumed claimed superiority.  Flu vaccine catch 22.
And when the flu vaxx has less efficacy than claimed, the virus is blamed for mutating, the crafty devious bugger, not the bad science of attempted  artificial immunity, which in any event the body doesn't learn from and memorise.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 07:20:17 PM by Main Street »

omaghjoe

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 07:51:52 PM »
Puck you obviously know what youíre on about here and admittedly I know sweet FA about the vaccine and in a way I suppose thats my biggest worry. But I also dont believe that medical science knows that much about its side effects either.
To put this in context I avoid processed foods like the plague for my family as I inherently think their affects are far too complex to be known with current science especially on the digestive, immune and endocrine systems. The complexity is caused by linking the substances in processed foods, to how our body processes them to some other symptom. Factor in an almost infinite set of variables and you could safely safe it will never be understood unless roughly speaking through epidemiology but this never deals with individual cause and affects. Anyway Net result is since we dont know I avoid processed foods.
So my concerns are similar with the flu vaccine. IMO PPM or not of chemicals is of no consequence as it goes straight into your blood stream without being diluted or broken down by the bacteria or enzymes in your gut. Not to mention that it changes every year so there is no real understanding of how it affects the body
MY concerns with medical professionalsí attitude to it are typified by the attitude to pregnant women. The advice for them is to get it and get it quick, which is fair enough they are higher risk to flu. Excpet... when you consider the advice on practically all other types of medicine is to avoid it because they are not sure of the effects on an unborn child. Some of these are drugs that are decades old and they donít know the effect but sure here take this cocktail of chemicals that we cooked up last month!

Also I should clarify that i meant by making your immune system weaker.... is that bygetting the flu and beating it naturally will leave your immune system stronger for longer than with a flu shot. Which only equates into an annual dependency on the flu shot

As far as herd immunity goes tho, doesnt that need to be at higher than 90% to be effective

All of the above is my opinion so sorry i it comes across as "matter of fact" and I'm open to correction at any point.

BennyCake

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 08:08:38 PM »
The effects of a  flu vaccine are only observed on flu vaxxed people and afaics those claims for positive effects are extremely dubious and exhibit some of the worst of bad science and dogma.

When researchers observe what happens to vaccinated folk,  they offer a claimed efficacy value of the vaccine,  it was 10% in Australia recently, last year in the USA a 30% or 40% efficacy was claimed, Those are worthless figures. Why even use the term efficacy when inefficiency is the more germane term? That smacks of deception. And even with those 10% or 30% or 40%  who  do not develop  recognised flu symptoms,  how can anyone claim with a remote degree of certainty that the flu shot made any positive difference to them not developing the flu symptoms?

So why not compare results of  flu vaxxed to non-flu vaxxed? That's not done because the argument offered is that it would be unethical, that it would put people at unnecessary risk. Firstly that argument assumes the flu vaccine has more positive than negative  effects, long before that fact could be even determined in real life experience and secondly the supporting argument for that "ethical" position is the children's seat test, as in, would you put children at risk just to  prove in real tests that a children's seat & belt is more safe in a car than not.
What a stupid argument that is, firstly we can observe statistics, observe real comparisons that have already happened in accidents and also we can do (almost) real tests with dummies.
The flu vaccine is not compared to no vaccine use in real life  because the flu vaccine is assumed to be be superior,  therefore there's no need to do the only real comparison test  that could support that assumed claimed superiority.  Flu vaccine catch 22.
And when the flu vaxx has less efficacy than claimed, the virus is blamed for mutating, the crafty devious bugger, not the bad science of attempted  artificial immunity, which in any event the body doesn't learn from and memorise.

I need to lie down after that.

BennyCake

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 08:12:10 PM »
Puck you obviously know what youíre on about here and admittedly I know sweet FA about the vaccine and in a way I suppose thats my biggest worry. But I also dont believe that medical science knows that much about its side effects either.
To put this in context I avoid processed foods like the plague for my family as I inherently think their affects are far too complex to be known with current science especially on the digestive, immune and endocrine systems. The complexity is caused by linking the substances in processed foods, to how our body processes them to some other symptom. Factor in an almost infinite set of variables and you could safely safe it will never be understood unless roughly speaking through epidemiology but this never deals with individual cause and affects. Anyway Net result is since we dont know I avoid processed foods.
So my concerns are similar with the flu vaccine. IMO PPM or not of chemicals is of no consequence as it goes straight into your blood stream without being diluted or broken down by the bacteria or enzymes in your gut. Not to mention that it changes every year so there is no real understanding of how it affects the body
MY concerns with medical professionalsí attitude to it are typified by the attitude to pregnant women. The advice for them is to get it and get it quick, which is fair enough they are higher risk to flu. Excpet... when you consider the advice on practically all other types of medicine is to avoid it because they are not sure of the effects on an unborn child. Some of these are drugs that are decades old and they donít know the effect but sure here take this cocktail of chemicals that we cooked up last month!

Also I should clarify that i meant by making your immune system weaker.... is that bygetting the flu and beating it naturally will leave your immune system stronger for longer than with a flu shot. Which only equates into an annual dependency on the flu shot

As far as herd immunity goes tho, doesnt that need to be at higher than 90% to be effective

All of the above is my opinion so sorry i it comes across as "matter of fact" and I'm open to correction at any point.

Yup, I'd especially agree with that.

trileacman

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 10:11:46 PM »

So my concerns are similar with the flu vaccine. IMO PPM or not of chemicals is of no consequence as it goes straight into your blood stream without being diluted or broken down by the bacteria or enzymes in your gut. Not to mention that it changes every year so there is no real understanding of how it affects the body.


Quite a lot of things pass through your gut without being broken down by bacteria or enzymes. If the vaccine was administered via ingestion it would alay very few of your concerns.


Also I should clarify that i meant by making your immune system weaker.... is that by getting the flu and beating it naturally will leave your immune system stronger for longer than with a flu shot. Which only equates into an annual dependency on the flu shot.


Not strictly true. As previously stated the influenza virus mutates often and immune challenge to one influenza strain provides very little persistent immunity. This also counters your annual dependency argument, you're dependent on annual vaccination because the influenza strain is mutating not because you never had a natural challenge.


As far as herd immunity goes tho, doeskin that need to be at higher than 90% to be effective


It varies from pathogen to pathogen depending upon their mode of transmission, latency, existence outside the host and other factors. It is usually fairly high but it is not a consistent number across various infectious agents.
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armaghniac

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 10:24:41 PM »
The effects of a  flu vaccine are only observed on flu vaxxed people and afaics those claims for positive effects are extremely dubious and exhibit some of the worst of bad science and dogma.

There is bad science and dogma, but it is not coming from those advocating the vaccine.
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trileacman

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2018, 10:56:02 PM »
I see a lot of the typical sneering at anti-vaxxers argument on this thread that unfortunately passes for intelligent debate nowadays. It is correct and a necessity that medical opinions are challenged openly and that proper proof is presented for the use of vaccines.

There's a horrible condescending tone used to deride the valid concerns of people that alienates those people who need reassurance even further. http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/ is one such example of the type of belligerent attitude symptomatic of a certain section of society. Anyone can take that tone and pass it off as an educated opinion, I could say everyone who reads the guardian is a self absorbed w**ker who couldn't tell ya the difference between shite and clay. Vulgarity and scorn doesn't add any weight to your opinion, it lessens it.

There are multiple examples of vaccines that have not been safe. There was a cattle vaccine released 15 years ago or so that was proven to be a cause of a disease called bovine neonatal pancytopenia. The vaccine led to abberations in the immune system of the mother that caused fatal clotting disorders in the calf. A human vaccine for children that was withdrawn in 1998 was Rotashield which was shown to lead to a increase (quite slight) in the rate of intestinal torsion in infants. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16088803

Now having said all that don't mistake me for someone who is against the vaccination programmes that are in place in this country or most developed nations. Most likely the benefits of vaccinations outweigh the drawbacks even those we do know about yet. However a balance needs to be struck between acceptance and caution around vaccines and the entrenchment of opinions blocks meaningful compromise on the safety of vaccines.
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ONeill

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2018, 11:05:24 PM »
I get the flu jab every year and there's fcuk all wrong with me I think.
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BennyCake

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Re: Aussie Flu
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2018, 11:13:41 PM »
I get the flu jab every year and there's fcuk all wrong with me I think.

Of course there's something wrong with you. You're from Tyrone!  ;D