Couple of mates have being waiting for their tags this past 3 weeks and still no sign. When they ring up looking about it nobody can help them! Was listening to Matt Cooper last night and got confused even more by it all. One caller rang in and said they thought they were confused by the Lisbon treaty until they tried to understand this.
What is the story with Northern Drivers? By the looks of it, they are going to get away scot free without paying anything!
Grrreat name 1 road in the north that we charge you bastards for?
Quote from: feetofflames on August 27, 2008, 08:37:59 AM
Grrreat name 1 road in the north that we charge you b**tards for?
:D :D
Quote from: feetofflames on August 27, 2008, 08:37:59 AM
Grrreat name 1 road in the north that we charge you b**tards for?
We?
Quote from: Off The Fence on August 27, 2008, 08:18:15 AM
What is the story with Northern Drivers? By the looks of it, they are going to get away scot free without paying anything!
This northerner went onto the website to buy credit and there was no option for selecting any six county addresses.
Quote from: feetofflames on August 27, 2008, 08:37:59 AM
Grrreat name 1 road in the north that we charge you b**tards for?
But in fairness, what roads do we have that are of the same standard as tolled roads in the south and that bypass gridlocked areas?? I would rather pay the tolls than try to get through Dundalk/Drogheda, Dublin and especially Fermoy. All they need now is a bypass round Abbeyleix.
Quote from: Donagh on August 27, 2008, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Off The Fence on August 27, 2008, 08:18:15 AM
What is the story with Northern Drivers? By the looks of it, they are going to get away scot free without paying anything!
This northerner went onto the website to buy credit and there was no option for selecting any six county addresses.
All Non Irish i.e. UK/NI/Eastern European vehicles are exempt from tolls on the M50.
Anyone who is still waiting on their Eazypass /Epass will not be charged until they receive their pass. NI drivers already using an Easypass should remove their Eazypass from their windscreed when on the M50 or they will be charged.
Its a new system and there will be teething problems.
I got an easypass and have been using it - how do you know all Northern drivers are exempt?
I went for eTrip and it works fine. Got it 2 days after I applied for it a few weeks ago. It's handier than some of the other ones cos it will also work in some carparks. There is a €1 per month standing charge but it's nothing to get too upset about.
Signed up for one on Monday. Let you know if/when it arrives. You got me nervous now though,
Northerners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though, so you'd want to be an eejit to register to pay this, even if it were possible.
As for Downgirl talking about the quality of roads, the M50 is hardly a pleasurable driving experience and you'd be hard pressed to encounter the congestion in and around dublin anywhere in the north.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 27, 2008, 11:04:03 AM
I went for eTrip and it works fine. Got it 2 days after I applied for it a few weeks ago. It's handier than some of the other ones cos it will also work in some carparks. There is a €1 per month standing charge but it's nothing to get too upset about.
You see that €1 a month is exactly the type of thing that does get me upset, the whole thing is ridiculous from start to finish - don't get me wrong, I'm as meek as the next man (i went with eazypass), but when this was 'bought' back by the government, there was no need to have a toll on it at all - it's been bought and paid for by the users over the past 18 years long ago - we don't need the govt using it as another stealth tax to make up revenue lost from their incompetence elsewhere.
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though,
Thats what I thought but you can be sure they will keep a record of the plates and then look to find some mechanism to get the payment probably with the fine for non payment added. Think I'll just pay.
The whole thing is dumb - spending whatever tens of millions to put this in place when that money could be well spent somewhere else. Stupid system for a stupid idea. And if they want to impose a toll they could at least impose it for everyone using it and not just the people you use that bit. The Red Cow exit cost the most money and yet people using that and not going through the toll bridge pay nothing. You can actually go from Bray to the Galway exit and pay nothing.
Quote from: saffron on August 27, 2008, 11:41:08 AM
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though,
Thats what I thought but you can be sure they will keep a record of the plates and then look to find some mechanism to get the payment probably with the fine for non payment added. Think I'll just pay.
I seriously wouldn't bother as they won't do that - it would be too complicated and couldn't be enforced, afaik they're quite happy to take this one on the chin as it'll mean so little in terms of lost revenue that it's irrelevant to them.
Quote from: Down Gael on August 27, 2008, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: Donagh on August 27, 2008, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Off The Fence on August 27, 2008, 08:18:15 AM
What is the story with Northern Drivers? By the looks of it, they are going to get away scot free without paying anything!
This northerner went onto the website to buy credit and there was no option for selecting any six county addresses.
All Non Irish i.e. UK/NI/Eastern European vehicles are exempt from tolls on the M50.
Anyone who is still waiting on their Eazypass /Epass will not be charged until they receive their pass. NI drivers already using an Easypass should remove their Eazypass from their windscreed when on the M50 or they will be charged.
Its a new system and there will be teething problems.
Sorry but they aren't , EU vechicles will have to pay the charge
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 27, 2008, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: saffron on August 27, 2008, 11:41:08 AM
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though,
Thats what I thought but you can be sure they will keep a record of the plates and then look to find some mechanism to get the payment probably with the fine for non payment added. Think I'll just pay.
I seriously wouldn't bother as they won't do that - it would be too complicated and couldn't be enforced, afaik they're quite happy to take this one on the chin as it'll mean so little in terms of lost revenue that it's irrelevant to them.
Their is a mechanism to track them down!
Quote from: Gnevin on August 27, 2008, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 27, 2008, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: saffron on August 27, 2008, 11:41:08 AM
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though,
Thats what I thought but you can be sure they will keep a record of the plates and then look to find some mechanism to get the payment probably with the fine for non payment added. Think I'll just pay.
I seriously wouldn't bother as they won't do that - it would be too complicated and couldn't be enforced, afaik they're quite happy to take this one on the chin as it'll mean so little in terms of lost revenue that it's irrelevant to them.
Their is a mechanism to track them down!
From the e-flow website FAQ Section
How do you manage foreign vehicles?
Foreign-registered vehicles using the M50 are subject to the same rules as Irish-registered vehicles.
For all motorists using the M50, whether registered or unregistered, national or foreign, the non-payment of tolls is an offence under the legislation. The National Roads Authority has therefore established a rigorous enforcement policy implemented through a trans-European enforcement agency to assist in the recovery of unpaid toll charges and fines and the prosecution of all toll evaders of Irish or foreign registered vehicles.
The onus is also on foreign motorists arriving in any country to be aware of bye-laws and rules of the road. Information is also available through motoring organisations, car hire companies and tourist bodies here and abroad.
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though, so you'd want to be an eejit to register to pay this, even if it were possible.
There certainly is a mechanism to track them down. Now if you only go by once or twice they mightn't bother, but if you are there regularly then they will just hand over any unpaid fees to the debt collectors. This is no different from a person living in the south.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though, so you'd want to be an eejit to register to pay this, even if it were possible.
There certainly is a mechanism to track them down. Now if you only go by once or twice they mightn't bother, but if you are there regularly then they will just hand over any unpaid fees to the debt collectors. This is no different from a person living in the south.
If you go twice and you don't pay they will just hit you with the 360 euro charge
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2008, 01:31:37 PM
QuoteNortherners or people driving with non-irish plates are not exempt, there is no mechanism to track them down though, so you'd want to be an eejit to register to pay this, even if it were possible.
There certainly is a mechanism to track them down. Now if you only go by once or twice they mightn't bother, but if you are there regularly then they will just hand over any unpaid fees to the debt collectors. This is no different from a person living in the south.
Go on then, humour me, explain how this is going to happen?
Bogball believe me I know about the congestion on the M50 but in general it does help....well unless you are on it at rush hour times. Have they finished working at the red cow yet? But anyway my point is I would rather pay to use the roads rather than go through all the wee towns and all that. So are there still lanes where you can just pay as you go through on the M50? What is it now like €3 or something??
QuoteHave they finished working at the red cow yet?
:D :D
Everytime I go near the red cow it looks worse.
They now block lanes off with cones and no one appears to be working there at all. The whole thing is very confusing.
Quote from: downgirl on August 27, 2008, 01:50:02 PM
Bogball believe me I know about the congestion on the M50 but in general it does help....well unless you are on it at rush hour times. Have they finished working at the red cow yet? But anyway my point is I would rather pay to use the roads rather than go through all the wee towns and all that. So are there still lanes where you can just pay as you go through on the M50? What is it now like €3 or something??
no, the toll will be €2 if you've got yourself a tag, €2.50 if you've registered and are happy to give bank details and allow them to debit as you use it (this is where the number plate recognition comes in) and €3 if you don't know about it or if you haven't done either of the above, you have to pay the €3 by 8.00pm the following night or it becomes €6, then you've another few days and it becomes €6 plus €42 fine or something, can't remember exactly, but it builds up.
red cow not finished yet, as saffron says it's not improving much, but at least I can see where they're going with the whole thing, moving towards an american style freeway system of entrances and exits - incomprehensible if you're not using it regularly.
Whilst the M50 helps and the other roads etc are great, the overall road network in the north is far superior to that in the south, in addition, whilst people can choose whether or not to use other toll roads, there is effectively no choice for most dublin commuters.
QuoteGo on then, humour me, explain how this is going to happen?
your car is registered to you, so debt collectors can get this address and have a judgement against you, which would seriously f**k up your credit score, even if they didn't seize your car to pay for it.
There is nothing new about this, a number of folks in the Newry/ S Armagh area had this problem when they took an easy going approach to paying Dundalk parking tickets. By the time the various penalties and charges were added on they owed several times what would have paid off the original tickets. These additional non payment charges make it worth them collecting it.
Now there are cars that are registered to your present address etc , e.g. and these have a chance of avoiding payment for a longer period.
Armaghiac, that's a good example, but the difference in this instance it's a very different scenario afaik.
In dundalk presumably a large percentage of parking violations were by you boys down parking wherever you wanted etc, the local council would have seen this and said feck it, we've got to make an example of them, thus in this instance it would have been worth their while to go north, attempting to pursue the debt - now, how they were able to find out the addresses of northerners and secure judgements against them, I don't know, I find it hard to believe that a northern judge would make a judgement against a northerners assets arising out of a parking violation, but i'll believe you when you say it happened.
In the M50 toll scenario, cars with regs from outside the country will be in a very, very small minority, it will simply not be worth their while to start trying to prosecute people from outside of the jurisdiction, for a start they would have to trace the car to an address, establish who was driving that car (impossible imo in this instance) etc and then take this issue before a southern court and secure a conviction from the judge, this will then have to be taken north and the judge there might make them go through the whole process again, except this time the judge may not be as sympathetic, especially when he hears that the system discriminates against persons without a bank account in the republic in that they have to pay 50% more etc etc, basically, it aint going to happen.
They found the addresses of the offenders by asking the NI DOE vehicle registration people for their details. Not difficult. There is no need whatsoever to establish who is driving the car, the registered owner of the car is liable, whoever is driving it (unless it was stolen). The NI judge makes a judgement as required by the European Union framework regime whereby all road traffic offences committed anywhere in the European Union, incurring fines over 70 euros from parking fines to more serious offences will henceforth be automatically enforceable in a citizen's home country. If you received the bills and didn't pay them, or dispute them or whatever the NI judge won't be interested.
I don't see how people in the North have to pay extra, you can pay by credit or debit card and people in the south may not have bank accounts either.
Now I am not saying that they are going to chase everyone who happens to pass by the odd time, but it is only slightly more difficult to get someone in the North. The NI people have lost a lot on parking tickets etc from people in the South, but that's because they were in typical little Englander mode and didn't have a procedure to invoke these EU provisions. The toll people have this in mind right from day 1, not so much to stop the odd visitor but to stop someone working in Dublin using a NI registered car to evade payment. I am sure that they will follow up fairly soon, to make sure that the impression doesn't get around that you can do what you like.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2008, 08:37:32 PM
They found the addresses of the offenders by asking the NI DOE vehicle registration people for their details. Not difficult. There is no need whatsoever to establish who is driving the car, the registered owner of the car is liable, whoever is driving it (unless it was stolen). The NI judge makes a judgement as required by the European Union framework regime whereby all road traffic offences committed anywhere in the European Union, incurring fines over 70 euros from parking fines to more serious offences will henceforth be automatically enforceable in a citizen's home country. If you received the bills and didn't pay them, or dispute them or whatever the NI judge won't be interested.
I don't see how people in the North have to pay extra, you can pay by credit or debit card and people in the south may not have bank accounts either.
Now I am not saying that they are going to chase everyone who happens to pass by the odd time, but it is only slightly more difficult to get someone in the North. The NI people have lost a lot on parking tickets etc from people in the South, but that's because they were in typical little Englander mode and didn't have a procedure to invoke these EU provisions. The toll people have this in mind right from day 1, not so much to stop the odd visitor but to stop someone working in Dublin using a NI registered car to evade payment. I am sure that they will follow up fairly soon, to make sure that the impression doesn't get around that you can do what you like.
Fair enough but here's what I think the problems with the above are:
Why would the NI DOE give these details to a debt collector, that would appear to be a misuse of data.
Re the driver of the car, I totally disagree, the driver, not the owner took the decision to avoid paying the toll, the owner may never have known that the car defaulted on payment, so how can a southern judge convict a northern car owner in his absence? Presumably the conviction must be in place before any eu framework can kick into place, there you again have the problem, that since the fines are on a rising scale and only breach the €70 threshold after a certain time period and if it were possible that the northern owner was never aware of any of this having taken place, could a mexican judge convict?
According to Donagh, nordies cannot register for tags, thus they have to pay extra.
Like yourself and everybody else, I don't really know, you have the example of south armagh lads being chased up for parking tickets etc, however I have numerous example of northerners being caught on camera speeding with nothing happening (and they weren't all me ;)), in the speeding camera instances, it was decided early on that it just wasn't economic to chase these up, and as these were significantly higher than any toll, I just can't see that they'll follow up on these at all.
As for people living in the south and driving northern reg cars, I think the default of the toll would be the least of the worries they'd have, they risk getting their car seized at any time for evading VRT, which as you know runs into the thousands.
Basically, I will be shocked if any attempts are made to try and collect tolls including fines from non-irish reg cars in the forseeable future.
The Money raised by these tolls should be used to provide proper facilities on the motorway system, toilets, rest areas, food stops etc., in the same way as they do in France and Germany. As things stand we are getting little for our fees. This is also a health and safety issue, as Truck drivers are obliged by law to take a break every 4 hrs, where on our motorways is this possible
QuoteWhy would the NI DOE give these details to a debt collector, that would appear to be a misuse of data.
They will give the details in the first instance to the toll people, if only so that they can send you a bill! Your details will only reach the debt collectors if you don't pay, so no data protection issues there.
QuoteRe the driver of the car, I totally disagree,
Disagree you might, but if you get any parking ticket you can't debate who was driving the car, the owner of the car has to pay it.
QuoteAccording to Donagh, nordies cannot register for tags, thus they have to pay extra.
there are 6 different tag companies, lots of people in the North who travel to Dublin regularly already have tags for the M1.
Quotehowever I have numerous example of northerners being caught on camera speeding with nothing happening
these are recorded though, when the penalty points are harmonised these may land on your licence. These are not privatised though, so they are less keen on following up the fines.
QuoteBasically, I will be shocked if any attempts are made to try and collect tolls including fines from non-irish reg cars in the forseeable future.
I'll be shocked if they don't at least ensure a few well publicised cases are followed up, it isn't that hard to do and once people are seen to be caught then others will pay up.
So what's the best/cheapest way to use the M50 for somebody who would use it no more than 2 or 3 times a month? This craic of phoning up before 8pm the following day dosen't appeal to me and if I were to get a tag - are they interchangeable between cars?
Quote from: armaghniac on August 27, 2008, 10:28:55 PM
QuoteWhy would the NI DOE give these details to a debt collector, that would appear to be a misuse of data.
They will give the details in the first instance to the toll people, if only so that they can send you a bill! Your details will only reach the debt collectors if you don't pay, so no data protection issues there.
I just can't see that happening, for a start the bill at that stage will be €6, we'll just have to wait and see though.
Quote from: comethekingdom on August 27, 2008, 10:58:51 PM
So what's the best/cheapest way to use the M50 for somebody who would use it no more than 2 or 3 times a month? This craic of phoning up before 8pm the following day dosen't appeal to me and if I were to get a tag - are they interchangeable between cars?
tags are not interchangeable.
the best option is probably to go online and register your vehicle for the video toll option, essentially you'll be hit for €2.50 a time, but no admin fee or anything.
thanks.
Just looked up tolltag.ie. Purchase a tag for 30 euros and each toll is €2.20 after that. Do the video thing and it costs €2.50 - 100 trips or so for toll tag to pay for itself! - not for me I think!
Got to love the Nordies trying to save 3.00 by hiding behind the British state and jumping across the border ::)
From today's Indo it is clear that the call centre you ring to pay your toll is in Newry. No doubt the employees here will be able to use to Northern cars when visiting Dublin to avoid having to ring themselves to pay the toll.
OVER 100 workers working at the M50 West-Link toll bridge will lose their jobs when the barrier-free system comes into operation on Saturday, it emerged last night.
The 120 staff say they have reluctantly accepted a compensation package from parent company National Toll Roads (NTR) who will close the toll plaza on Saturday.
The workers say they were told all along that jobs would be available at the call centre of the National Roads Authority's (NRA) tolling site, eflow.ie. But the organisation has opted to locate the centre in Newry, Co Down, instead.
Got my 3 tags today
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 27, 2008, 11:24:23 AM
You see that €1 a month is exactly the type of thing that does get me upset, the whole thing is ridiculous from start to finish - don't get me wrong, I'm as meek as the next man (i went with eazypass), but when this was 'bought' back by the government, there was no need to have a toll on it at all - it's been bought and paid for by the users over the past 18 years long ago - we don't need the govt using it as another stealth tax to make up revenue lost from their incompetence elsewhere.
Everyone who buys a pass pays 40 Euro in advance so the operators are up E400 000 from 10 000 users before they even start and will always be. It's a complete rip off.
Quote from: Zapatista on August 29, 2008, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 27, 2008, 11:24:23 AM
You see that €1 a month is exactly the type of thing that does get me upset, the whole thing is ridiculous from start to finish - don't get me wrong, I'm as meek as the next man (i went with eazypass), but when this was 'bought' back by the government, there was no need to have a toll on it at all - it's been bought and paid for by the users over the past 18 years long ago - we don't need the govt using it as another stealth tax to make up revenue lost from their incompetence elsewhere.
Everyone who buys a pass pays 40 Euro in advance so the operators are up E400 000 from 10 000 users before they even start and will always be. It's a complete rip off.
Yeah, but apparently they're adding the interest gained to your account ;)
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 29, 2008, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on August 29, 2008, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 27, 2008, 11:24:23 AM
You see that €1 a month is exactly the type of thing that does get me upset, the whole thing is ridiculous from start to finish - don't get me wrong, I'm as meek as the next man (i went with eazypass), but when this was 'bought' back by the government, there was no need to have a toll on it at all - it's been bought and paid for by the users over the past 18 years long ago - we don't need the govt using it as another stealth tax to make up revenue lost from their incompetence elsewhere.
Everyone who buys a pass pays 40 Euro in advance so the operators are up E400 000 from 10 000 users before they even start and will always be. It's a complete rip off.
Yeah, but apparently they're adding the interest gained to your account ;)
They are also taking to admireable step of paying the Tax for you. If you own a business you will have no need to claim it back as you will not be paying the tax in the first place. However the current price @ VAT will not be reduced.