The Sunday Game

[omaghjoe]

Not sure I follow OJ. I would say off the ball pulling and dragging has reduced and lads are coached to tackle and defend properly more often now. Anyway, are we now saying if defenders foul it's ok for forwards to dive? If so, where does that lead us?

Defenders used to pull the jersey and forwards used to grab a defenders arm and pull him down and while neither are right I think both are short of players diving with minimal contact. If diving becomes the norm then football will become as unwatchable as soccer.

Why?

Well I certainly agree the forward grabbing the arm is very annoying and pulling a jersey is a foul but they would fall under the 'cute' category that exists in all contact sports I imagine. They can also both be punished if caught whereas diving is simply cheating in a way that reflects poorly on the sport, makes the game more difficult to ref and often results in the wrong player getting punished.

If you push a guy in the back to get the ball you are technically cheating to gain an advantage but to me that is not comparable to diving, likewise pulling a jersey or a defenders arm. If it is for you then fair enough but if a kid takes a bar of chocolate and a stockbroker takes peoples pensions both are technically stealing but only one is shamefully.

So the level of "cuteness" means that diving is worse? How do you define cuteness anyway? Why is diving not cute? If you are doing something that is deliberately against the rules to gain an advantage is there any difference in the "severity"?

I believe the difference is that diving is a display, so its obvious and that's why it annoys us. No one sees a jersey pull, its supposed to be hidden thats the whole purpose of it. However a dive is supposed to be seen by the referee so it has to be obvious, and when its theatrical we get annoyed at it because it is so bloody obvious that its simulation. However that does not make it worse than the sly jersey pull, in fact maybe even less so, as with simulation the act is all on display for everyone to see so perhaps its maybe even a more honest way of cheating?

[JoG2]

Only in a Tyrone man's head would a jersey tug be worse than a dive

[lenny]

Lynn clearly got fingers in the eye. He went down on wan knee to recover the hit.

He did not intentionally get the fella the line. Poor decision by referee.


Tyrone supporters are a bunch of b**tards.

Is it possible to like a team and hate their supporters. I am starting to warm to the players; but no chance the supporters, although rrhf, O'Neill and the strabane lads are funny feckers.

Lynn intentionally dived, call a spade a spade.

Derry have had a few divers, the most obvious example was in 06 in Healey Park when Hinphey got Hub Hughes sent off for very little. The younger Bradley was very fond of pulling the defenders arm in as well. However, Lynn didn't dive or even look for action against his man, he got a poke in the eye and sat down on his hunkers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WutruR79Wcs


His eye is clearly in a different part of his face to everyone else in the world.

The Derry men don't like having to abide by their own high standards and moral  compass.

That video is completely ambiguous. Totally unlike mccanns pathetic and disgusting play acting.

It's not like McCann but it's not quite 'the poor fella got two fingers/a poke in the eye and had to crouch down to deal with it'. A dive is a dive, if you watch the game you'll probably see Conor Laverty (and undoubtedly other Down players) falling over at the slightest of touches, just as there were plenty of Derry men doing it that day. Just because it wasn't as bad as McCann's doesn't mean it's something you can defend.

I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not saying that A Derry player has never dived but in this case it isn't clear cut as we can't see the incident all that clearly and there is substantial enough contact. Also Lynn only crouches down afterwards.

The point of the posters that defended Lynn in this incident said that he was poked in the eye and went down - which would be a sort of natural reaction to getting poked in the eye. The video is conclusive that he was not poked in the eye. There is no need to go down - crouched or not -  from the contact made by the Down player in this video.

Once again I still disagree. From the footage we see it doesn't look like there is contact around his eye but as the footage begins his hand is already in contact with Lynn and we cannot say for sure that in the instant previous his hand hasn't made contact around the eye area. Having said that when you look at it again it is a strong hand into the adams apple area which could give anybody an excuse to crouch down on one knee. It's the kind of situation which would never have been mentioned again if the down player hadn't been incorrectly sent off. It's a clear yellow card offence but definitely not a red. That again is a clear difference in the mccann incident where hughes didn't deserve any kind of punishment.

[Rossfan]

Cuteness is cynical fouling done by Kerry, Dublin or Galway players

[Jayop]

Only in a Tyrone man's head would a jersey tug be worse than a dive

Not all Tyrone men.

In order or worseness the things that annoy me are....

1) Dives
2) Cynical fouling close to goal to stop goal chances
3) Cynical fouling outside the 45 to stop attacks outside of the comfortable free taking range
4) Goading players to try to get them to react and get them sent off
5) Time wasting

[omagh_gael]

Only in a Tyrone man's head would a jersey tug be worse than a dive

Not all Tyrone men.

In order or worseness the things that annoy me are....

1) Dives
2) Cynical fouling close to goal to stop goal chances
3) Cynical fouling outside the 45 to stop attacks outside of the comfortable free taking range
4) Goading players to try to get them to react and get them sent off
5) Time wasting

Alright, fess up. Who leaked the Tyrone u-6 coaching directive to you?

[Jayop]

Alright, fess up. Who leaked the Tyrone u-6 coaching directive to you?

Did I give too much away? Fecking noobies!!

[omaghjoe]

Right lads I explained my reasoning why a jersey tug might be considered worse ( I didnt even say that it was what i thought)

However no one seems to be able to explain why a dive is the worse than other forms of gamesmanship.

So can someone explain why dives are worse than sneaky jersey pulls, if they are worse it should be a simple enough explanation.

[Jayop]

Because contact is part of the game, pulling a jersey sometimes is an automatic or even accidental thing a player does in the heat of the moment. A dive is not, it's a sneaky thing that only a certain type of player/person will do.

It's the most obvious and clear form of cheating. Comparing it to a jersey pull is kinda like comparing it to claiming a 45 when you know your not due one. One is gamesmanship, the other if cheating.

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

Because contact is part of the game, pulling a jersey sometimes is an automatic or even accidental thing a player does in the heat of the moment. A dive is not, it's a sneaky thing that only a certain type of player/person will do.

It's the most obvious and clear form of cheating. Comparing it to a jersey pull is kinda like comparing it to claiming a 45 when you know your not due one. One is gamesmanship, the other if cheating.

x2.

[Il Bomber Destro]

3. Il Bomber and anyone else with a Tyrone persecution complex need to catch themselves on. McCann has copped himself on this year which is good to see, but that dive last year was awful AND is worse than what O'Shea did as it had 1 purpose - to get a man red carded. So Mickey Harte or anyone else moaning about it still is only embarassing themselves.

Not the point.

McCann's may have been the worst dive you will ever see but a dive is a dive.

There has been a huge difference between the way McCann (and Tyrone) are treated when they were out of line compared to everyone else.

When Tyrone step out of line they are savaged, the track record of misdemeanors, including incidents which are hotly contested, last years  incident in the minor game where some horrendous accusations were leveled at two Tyrone minors were proven to be incorrect but it didn't stop people bandying it about.

Dublin, Kerry or Mayo, do not have their litany of transgressions brought out when they cross the line and there is a fairly big list of them too over the past number of years. When it comes to media reporting on the GAA, there is one rule for Tyrone and another rule for everyone else. Certain teams seem to be guarded from any sort of criticism or highlighting of their untoward ways, fair play to Brolly on calling O'Rourke out on his very obvious bias towards Kerry the other week.

The most disgraceful incident I saw in last year's championship was the disgusting attempt from Johnny Cooper to do Diarmuid O'Connor - it barely got a mention, Whelan passing it off as not a big issue.

But it IS the point. McCann attempted to get an opponent red carded (successfully). That is the worst type of what we are talking about here. That is much worse than what AOS did although both are disgusting to see. And yes, Tyrone got pilloried last year because they were doing an inordinate amount of acting the Boll*x. Get over it. More than any other team, Dublin included.
THIS year, they have cut nearly all of that out it seems and are better off for it. Concentrating on football, but playing hard and on the edge at the same time. THAT is absolutely to be lauded, so i don't get Mickey going back into last year's instances, moaning about McNulty looking for a penalty against Kerry etc.

I guess everyone is going to stand up for their own county and I wouldn't expect any Tyrone fan to contradict Harte much, so not expecting you to agree with me, but it doesn't really matter that much.

Yes, I don't argue with McCann's flak.

I do argue with the complete inconsistency with the flak given out to McCann than that to other players who did the exact same thing.

Did anyone call for O'Mahoney to get a ban or to come out and make a public apology and he did the same thing McCann did and was also successful in it? No.

Did anyone call for Aidan O'Shea to make a public apology or call for him to be banned after he tried to get Pascal McConnell sent off in an All Ireland semi-final? No they didn't, in fact it wasn't even commented on. Move along, nothing to see here.

The fact is O'Shea is a guy with previous in this respect, if fair was fair and consistency was in operation he would have been savaged like Tiernan McCann was. He wasn't, we had the RTE regulars trying to excuse him for cheating, again, which is in direct contrast to how McCann was hung out to dry.

The major problem Tyrone people have is not in the way McCann was savaged last year for his actions. I think we all agree they were embarrassing and he was out of order, it is in the way Tyrone seem to be the only team who come under the intense scrutiny and criticism in this regard.

Do you honestly think McCann's dive was worse than Johnny Cooper trying to do Diarmuid O'Connor last year, an incident that was barely commented on last year? If a Tyrone player had done what Cooper did, there would have been uproar and calls for a huge ban. The inconsistency when it comes to the media portrayal Tyrone and the likes of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry is evident and your head is buried firmly in the sand if you can't see it.

[Jinxy]

Right lads I explained my reasoning why a jersey tug might be considered worse ( I didnt even say that it was what i thought)

However no one seems to be able to explain why a dive is the worse than other forms of gamesmanship.

So can someone explain why dives are worse than sneaky jersey pulls, if they are worse it should be a simple enough explanation.

Which is worse, punching a man in the face or having an affair with his wife?

[Jayop]

Which is worse, punching a man in the face or having an affair with his wife?

Depends on the wife.

[omaghjoe]

How is pulling someone's jersey part of the game? How is it an automatic action? You have to grab and pull or hold, its deliberate.
A deliberate and illegal form of gaining an advantage, its cheating, not gamemanship. And because its not clear and obvious doesnt that actually make it worse than more obvious forms of cheating?

[Zulu]

OJ, you're on your own here I'm afraid. The argument you're putting forward could be done (and I have) for stealing - a child stealing a bar of chocolate verses someone robbing a bank/person or any number of other things, driving over the speed limit for example. Can you explain to me why a child who steals a bar of chocolate shouldn't go to jail while someone who robs a bank should? Or perhaps you feel they both should be viewed the same?

A jersey pull is a foul and is often punished by the referee. Fouling is part of all contact sports and have been from the first time they were played. Diving is cheating and was not always part of the game. As with the examples above, you can get into the nitty gritty of what is different between a jersey pull and a dive, both are wrong but they are not the same.