Middle East landscape rapidly changing

Started by give her dixie, January 25, 2011, 02:05:36 PM

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DrinkingHarp

Christian-Muslim clashes in Egypt kill 13


HENDAWI, Associated Press Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press – 1 hr 40 mins ago

CAIRO – Clashes that broke out when a Muslim mob attacked thousands of Christians protesting against the burning of a Cairo church killed at least 13 people and wounded about 140, security and hospital officials said Wednesday.

The Muslims torched the church amid an escalation of tensions between the two religious groups over a love affair between a Muslim and a Christian that set off a violent feud between the couple's families.

The officials said all 13 fatalities died of gunshot wounds.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The late Tuesday night clashes added to a sense of ongoing chaos in Egypt after the momentous 18-day democracy uprising that toppled longtime leader Hosni Mubarak on Feb. 11. The uprising left a security vacuum when police have pulled out from Cairo and several other cities three days into the uprising.

The police have yet to fully take back the streets, something that has left space for a wave of violent crime and lawlessness in some parts of the nation.

In a separate incident, at least two people were wounded when rival crowds pelted each other with rocks at Cairo's central Tahrir Square, the uprising's epicenter, according to an Associated Press Television News cameraman at the scene. He said the violence pitted youths camping out at the square to press their demand for a complete break with the ousted regime and another group that is opposed to their continued presence at the square.

The Christian protesters on Tuesday blocked a vital highway, burning tires and pelting cars with rocks. An angry crowd of Muslims set upon the Christians and the two sides fought pitched battles for about four hours.

Mubarak handed power to the military when he stepped down, but the military does not have enough troops to police every street in Cairo, a sprawling city of some 18 million people that, at the best of times, is chaotic.

Even before the uprising unleashed a torrent of discontent, tensions had been growing between Christians and Muslims in this country of 80 million.

On New Year's Day, a suicide bombing outside a Coptic church in the port city of Alexandria killed 21 people, setting off days of protests. Barely a week later, an off-duty policeman boarded a train and shot dead a 71-year-old Christian man and wounding his wife and four others.

Egypt's ruling generals have pledged last week to rebuild the torched church and the country's new prime minister, Essam Sharaf, has met the protesters outside the TV building in downtown Cairo to reassure them that his interim government would not discriminate against them.

But the Christians were not appeased. At least 2,000 of them protested on the highway on Tuesday night and a separate crowd of several hundred has been camping out outside the TV building for days to voice their anger at what they perceive to be official discrimination against them.


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Groucho

Dwarfs in charge of Israel
The ongoing Arab revolution may reshape the region's landscape

JERUSALEM IS abuzz with brilliant new ideas. The brightest minds of our political establishment are grappling with the problems created by the ongoing Arab revolution that is reshaping the landscape around us. Here is the latest crop of mind-bogglingly innovative ideas:

Minister of Defense Ehud Barak has announced that he is going to ask the US for a grant of another $20 billion for more state-of-the-art fighter planes, missile boats, a submarine, troop carriers and so on. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had his picture taken surrounded by female soldiers — like Muammar Qaddafi in the good old days — looking beyond the Jordan River and announcing that the Israeli Army would never ever leave the Jordan Valley. According to him, this occupied strip of land is Israel's vital "security border".

This slogan is as old as the occupation itself. It was part of the celebrated Allon Plan, which was designed to surround the West Bank with Israeli territory. However, times have changed. When Allon was a legendary commander in the 1948 war, he did not even dream of missiles. Today, missiles launched from beyond the Jordan can easily reach my home in Tel Aviv. When Netanyahu declares that we need the Jordan Valley in order to stop the Arabs from smuggling missiles into the West Bank, he is, well, a little bit behind the times.

When the politicians bravely face the new world, the army dares not lag behind. This week, several division commanders announced that they were preparing for Tahrir-style "nonviolent mass uprisings" in the West Bank. Troops are trained, riot control means are stocked. Our glorious army is being prepared for yet another colonial police job.

To reinforce the mental vigor of the leadership, Netanyahu has now mobilized an awesome intellect: He has appointed Gen. Yaakov Amidror as chief of the National Security Council. Amidror has never hidden his total opposition to a Palestinian state and peace in general. It is only fitting that Netanyahu invited the National Front party, which includes openly fascist elements, to join his government this week. They refused, because Netanyahu is not extreme enough for them.

In the meantime, a dozen top politicians, from Avigdor Lieberman down, have been dusting off moribund plans for "interim agreements."

All in all, political dwarfs, confronted with a revolutionary new reality which they can neither understand nor cope with. Assuming that the Arab world, or a large part of it, is on the road to democracy and social progress, how will this affect our future?

Can we build bridges to such progressive, multiparty societies? Can we persuade them to accept us as a legitimate part of the region? Can we participate in the political and economic emergence of a "New Middle East"? I believe we can. But the absolute, unalterable precondition is that we make peace with the Palestinian people.

It is the conviction of the entire Israeli establishment that this is impossible. As long as they are in charge, it is indeed impossible. But with another leadership, will things be different?

If both sides — and this depends heavily on Israel, the incomparably stronger side — really want peace, peace is there for the asking. All the requirements are lying plainly on the table. They have been discussed endlessly. The points for compromise are clearly marked. It would need no more than a few weeks to work out the details. Borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, water, security — we all know by now what the solutions are. What is lacking is the political will. A peace agreement — signed by the PLO, ratified in a popular referendum, accepted by Hamas — will radically change the attitude of the Arab peoples in general toward Israel. Not one of the ongoing uprisings in the various Arab countries is anti-Israeli by nature. However, as long as the occupation of Palestinian territory goes on, the Arab masses will reject conciliation with Israel.

One argument against peace, endlessly repeated by our official propaganda, is that Hamas will never accept it. The specter of Islamist movements in other countries winning democratic elections — as Hamas did in Palestine — is painted on the wall as a mortal danger.

It may be worthwhile remembering that Hamas was effectively created by Israel in the first place. During the first decades of the occupation, the military governors forbade any kind of Palestinian political activity, but the military governors were told to encourage Islamist organizations, as a counterforce to the PLO, the main enemy.

The emergence of Hezbollah was also a result of Israeli actions. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in order to destroy the PLO mini-state in the south of the country, it created a vacuum that was soon filled by the newly founded Hezbollah. 

Both Hamas and Hezbollah aspire to power in their respective countries. That is their main aim. For both, the fight against Israel is more a means than an end. Once peace is achieved, their energies will be directed to the struggle for power in their own countries.

Will Hamas accept peace? It has declared as much in a roundabout way: If the Palestinian Authority makes peace, they have declared, and if the peace agreement is ratified by a Palestinian referendum, Hamas will accept it as an expression of the people's will. The same goes for all the Islamic movements in the various Arab countries.

With a peace treaty freely accepted by the Palestinians as the satisfaction of their national aspirations, any intervention by other Arab countries will become redundant, if not downright ridiculous. Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt  and similar national religious organizations will concentrate their efforts on gaining power within the new democratic structures.   

With this obstacle removed, Israel will be judged by the Arab masses for what it is, at that time. We shall have the historic chance to take part in the reshaping of the entire region. Our deeds will speak.

More than 50 years ago, the then Crown Prince of Morocco Moulai Hassan — later King Hassan II — made a historic proposal: To invite Israel to join the Arab League. At the time, the idea sounded outlandish and was soon forgotten. Today, with a new Arab world in sight, this utopian vision is suddenly looking more realistic. Yes, after peace, with the free and sovereign State of Palestine becoming a full member of the UN, a reformed regional structure , including Israel, perhaps Turkey and, in due course, Iran, will move into the realm of reality.

A region with open borders, with commercial activity and economic cooperation flourishing from Marrakesh to Mosul, from Haifa to Aden, within a generation or two — yes, that is one of the possibilities opened by the current earth-shaking events.

Can this happen? Will it happen? "Realists" will shake their heads — as they did before the Germans tore down their wall, before Boris Yeltsin climbed on that tank and before the Americans elected an Afro-American president whose middle name is Hussein.
I like to see the fairways more narrow, then everyone would have to play from the rough, not just me

Capt Pat

A no fly zone resolution has just been imposed by the UN over Libya. So Ghadaffis advance eastwards may come to a halt short of Benghazzi

Pangurban

Too little too late, and will have no real effect

Banana Man

Quote from: Capt Pat on March 17, 2011, 10:53:15 PM
A no fly zone resolution has just been imposed by the UN over Libya. So Ghadaffis advance eastwards may come to a halt short of Benghazzi

day late, dollar short, what's left of the rebels will be lucky to hold the last city they have ffs

Banana Man

plus i would say gaddaffi will go hell for leather over the next few hours to do as much damage as possible before is planes and choppers are nullified

seafoid



A really poor letter from the Israeli ambassador today in the Irish Times.
He admits Israel murdered 650 Gazans in 2008 but then accuses Iran of murder. 
Israel's key thesis - that the Muslims are all insane children incapable of democracy- is falling apart.



•   Madam, – On Friday last, Palestinian militants broke into the home of a family living in the Jewish community of Itamar in the West Bank and – with knives – proceeded to slaughter the couple and their children, one of whom was a little baby.
Meanwhile, in Monday's Irish Timesthere were two accusatory pieces fiercely hostile to Israel.
I will not go into details disputing Dr Hikmat Ajjuri's history lecture on Israel and the Peace Process (Opinion, March 14th); that ground has been covered many times before. But I must respond to some of his insinuations and implications.
He says that Israel ever since its foundation has brainwashed its people with paranoia and created a "religion of the Holocaust" to maintain a sense of victimhood. As for the State of Israel inculcating paranoia into its people, the truth is it never had to: the environment in which Israel exists, and the attitudes it faces, for over 60 years have fostered that climate of insecurity. After all, Israel's right to exist is recognised by only two of the 22 states in the Arab League, it had to fight five wars for national survival, and endure decades of systematic terrorism, while last Friday a family was slaughtered by thugs in their own home because they were Jewish. That is why Israelis are somewhat concerned about their security.
The holocaust is not a "religion" – it is the worst event in humanity's history – the systematic murder of six million people. Add to this the fact that since the establishment of the state of Israel 25,000 Israelis have been killed in wars and by terrorism.
I must also protest at the use of the egregious term "genocide" to describe Israel's actions in operation Cast-Lead. Of the 1,300 deaths in that operation, even Hamas admits that more than half of them were Hamas fighters. Genocide means the systematic extermination of a race of people. What kind of "genocide" is it if during the year 2009 alone Israeli hospitals treated 10,000 Palestinians?
Contrary to what Dr Ajjuri stated, Israel is genuine in its desire for permanent peace with the Palestinians and the creation of an independent Palestinian state that will be no threat to Israel's security. We are all tired of this conflict and want peace. However, and as the people of Ireland know from their own experience, conflict resolution can only ever happen when the two sides behave like adults and sit down and talk face to face. The Palestinian Authority has made excuse after excuse for years to avoid doing so.
If Dr Ajjuri's article was disappointing, the Iranian ambassador's letter was a sick joke. He stated that the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 paved the way for freedom and democracy in the Middle East! In fact, it ushered in what is today one of the most appalling dystopian regimes in the world – a regime which suppresses opposition, indulges in murder and torture of dissidents, applies rape and beatings by police in its jails, hangs homosexuals, brutalises women into a status of outright inferiority and control, rigs elections (as in 2009), and enforces the most fanatic totalitarian version of Islamism on the planet. To say Iran is a champion of human liberty is like saying Jack the Ripper was a feminist! Your readers don't need moral lessons from a regime like that. – Yours, etc,

BOAZ MODAI,
Ambassador of Israel,
Embassy of Israel,
Pembroke Road,
Ballsbridge,
Dublin 4 ,
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

johnneycool

Quote from: seafoid on March 18, 2011, 10:46:02 AM


A really poor letter from the Israeli ambassador today in the Irish Times.
He admits Israel murdered 650 Gazans in 2008 but then accuses Iran of murder. 
Israel's key thesis - that the Muslims are all insane children incapable of democracy- is falling apart.



And injured a further 10,000 more.

In the interests of balanced reporting, we should be told how many Israelies were injured and killed in this battle.

thejuice

Gaddafis forces are attacking Benghazi. This no-fly-zone isn't going to do much.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

Groucho

What if Arabs had recognized the State of Israel in 1948?
I HAVE been exposed to Palestinians since I was in first grade in Al-Hassa, Saudi Arabia They were my favorite teachers. They were the most dedicated and the most intelligent among all my instructors, from elementary to high school.

When I was attending New York-based SUNY Maritime college (1975-1979), I read a lot of books about Palestinians, Arabs and the Israelis. I have read every article about the many chances the Palestinians had and missed to solve their problem, especially the Camp David agreement between Egypt and Israel.

I have seen and read about the lives of the Palestinians in the US and other places. They are very successful in every field. And at the same time I saw the Arab countries at the bottom of the list in education and development. And I always ask the question: What if the Palestinians and the Arabs accepted the presence of Israel on May 14, 1948 and recognized its right to exist? Would the Arab world have been more stable, more democratic and more advanced?

If Israel was recognized in 1948, then the Palestinians would have been able to free themselves from the hollow promises of some Arab dictators who kept telling them that the refugees would be back in their homes and all Arab lands will be liberated and Israel will be sent to the bottom of the sea. Some Arab leaders used the Palestinians for their own agenda to suppress their own people and to stay in power.

Since 1948, if an Arab politician wanted to be the hero and the leader of the Arab world, then he has a very easy way to do it. He just shouts as loud as he can about the intention to destroy Israel, without mobilizing one soldier (Talk is cheap).

If Israel was recognized in 1948, then there would have been no need for a coup in Egypt against King Farouq in 1952 and there would have been no attack on Egypt in 1956 by The UK, France and Israel. Also there will be no war in June 1967 and the size of Israel will not be increased and we, the Arabs would not have the need for a UN resolution to beg Israel to go back to the pre-1967 borders. And no war of attrition between Egypt and Israel that caused more casualties on the Egyptian side than the Israeli side.

After the 1967 war, Israel became a strategic ally of the US because before this war, the US was not as close to Israel as people in the Arab world think. The Israelis fought in that war using mainly French and British weapons. At that time, the US administrations refused to supply Israel with more modern aircraft and weapon systems such as the F-4 Phantom.

The Palestinian misery was also used to topple another stable monarchy, this time in Iraq and replacing it with a bloody dictatorship in one of the richest countries of the world. Iraq is rich in minerals, water reserves, fertile land and archaeological sites. The military led by Abdul Karim Qassim killed King Faisal II and his family. Bloodshed in Iraq continued and this Arab country has seen more violent revolutions and one of them was carried out in the 1960s by a brigade that was sent to help liberate Palestine. Instead it made a turn and went back and took over Baghdad. Even years later, Saddam Hussien said that he will liberate Jerusalem via Kuwait. He used Palestinians misery as an excuse to invade Kuwait.

If Israel were recognized in 1948, then the 1968 coup would not have taken place in another stable and rich monarchy (Kingdom of Libya). King Idris was toppled and Muammar Qaddafi took over.

There were other military coups in the Arab world such as Syria, Yemen and the Sudan. And each one of them used Palestine as their reason for such acts. The Egyptian regime of Jamal Abdul Nasser used to call the Arab Gulf states backward states and he tried to topple the governments of these Gulf states by using his media and his military forces. He even attacked southern borders of Saudi Arabia using his air force bases in Yemen.

Even a non-Arab country (Iran) used Palestine to divert the minds of their people from internal unrest. I remember Ayatollah Khomeini declaring that he would liberate Jerusalem via Baghdad and President Ahmadinejad making bellicose statements about Israel, though not even a single fire cracker was fired from Iran toward Israel.

Now, the Palestinians are on their own. Each Arab country is busy with its own crisis. From Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Somalia, Algeria, Lebanon and the Gulf states. For now, the Arab countries have put the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on hold.

—Abdulateef Al-Mulhim, is Commodore (Retd.), Royal Saudi Navy. He is based in Alkhobar, Saudi Arabia, and can be contacted at: almulhimnavy@hotmail.com
I like to see the fairways more narrow, then everyone would have to play from the rough, not just me

Franko

Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Mike Sheehy

Quote from: Franko on May 11, 2011, 12:46:46 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Whats the betting that there are at least four regular posters on here scouring the internet looking for articles about "US and Israeli infiltration of the revolution"   :-\

Mike Sheehy

Quote from: thejuice on March 19, 2011, 12:57:15 PM
Gaddafis forces are attacking Benghazi. This no-fly-zone isn't going to do much.

So you think there should be more engagement by Nato in this conflict ? What do you think the next steps should be ?

thejuice

Quote from: Franko on May 11, 2011, 12:46:46 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Hang on, did they not just get rid of a dictatorship?

There are a few extreme elements involved that are stoking up tension between the Copts and Muslims.

Did anyone honestly think after toppling the leadership of a country that it was going to be plain(plane?) sailing towards the next? Countries are unfortunately usually forged in the blood of its people.

Such are the birth pains of a new nation.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

seafoid

Quote from: Franko on May 11, 2011, 12:46:46 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork? 

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU