Middle East landscape rapidly changing

[Pangurban]

Reading Tyrones Own comments on this and other subjects, i have become convinced that it is far from Tyrone or Ireland he was reared

[Tyrones own]

If Tyrone is indeed in Ireland, it's hard to tell with some of ye then you're wrong and wrong 

[Tyrones own]

TO - You're the only reference point on this board for that end of the scale

What scale would that be since you never met me and know absolutely nothing about me

Not a matter of a) defending myself, or b) leaning on you.

You were of course defending yourself to the Piper when you brought my name into it!

I disagree fully with your Glen Beck directline

Please explain what you mean by your...or how this involves me?

Its some ping pong match alright to read you and dixie on here both professing that yiz each are right and its the other one who is a fundamentalist.

I never once professed to be right about anything other than being the very first one on here to catch on to what it was he was really about, when the rest of you were licking his hole, glorifying him for the great humanitarian he was 
You do realize that you, now that you had the audacity to highlight some of his biased hate are no better than me in his eyes... right ?
or will it take his little band of brainwashed cheerleaders to turn on you with assumptions and insults up the ying yang for you to figure that one out 

[Declan]

Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak's regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It's a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt's Internet and cell phone "kill switch" was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: "It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities."

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow "deep packet inspection,". Narus technology "allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down."

All of the above is in the public record.

[give her dixie]

Good article Declan, and it goes a long way in explaining why the US wants to keep it's dictators in place throughout the middle east. What I can't figure out is how a nation that has 44% of it's population living on food stamps, 1 in 46 homes in foreclosure, and half of the population working for minimum wage, millions without healtcare, sit back and allow thier Government to spend hundreds of billions each each on illegal wars and hand outs to dictators? Should they not take a leaf out of the Tunisian and Egyptians book and protest? I suppose Joe Biden said it best the other day when he said "Egypt can't control it's people the way we can".....

Republican Rand Paul said the following recently on CNN, and was immediatly denounced by many politicians. I don't often find myself agreeing with what a Republican says, but I agree with him on this statement:

"You have to ask yourself, are we funding an arms race on both sides?...........I don't think funding both sides of the arm race, particularly when we have to borrow the money from China to send it to someone else. We just can't do it anymore. The debt is all- consuming and it threatens our well-being as a country,"

I suppose it boils down to the fact that as long as the Government keep people in debt and on the breadline, they will not speak up or protest. The same is happening in Ireland at present. How many people took to the streets whenever the Government sold out to the IMF? No one is speaking up, or taking to the streets in protest. Maybe in 20 years time, when they are screwed way beyond where they are now, they will read about the Tunisian and Egyptian struggle, and then say "Enough Is Enough". However, it will be too late by then to salvage what is left of the country, or their dignity.

The following quote was by Martin Niemoller, a famous U Boat captain who was a fierce critic of the Nazi regime, and who spent time in the concentration camps. It is as relevant today as it was 60 odd years ago.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me

[Declan]

The "peace" envoy's thoughts on the matter
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt

[seafoid]

Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak's regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It's a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt's Internet and cell phone "kill switch" was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: "It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities."

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow "deep packet inspection,". Narus technology "allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down."

All of the above is in the public record.

Egypt is key. If Mubarak falls then Saudi will be next. Egypt and Saudi have been buying US weaponry for the last 30 years. Together they would beat Israel. Especially if Iran joined in.  Yank nightmare.

[Capt Pat]

So who were the pro Mubarak supporters? The secret police and their ilk in plain clothes seeing the writing on the wall for their lifestyles deciding they have as much to lose as Mubarak. They will be on the outside looking in if Mubarak leaves.

[johnneycool]

Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak's regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It's a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt's Internet and cell phone "kill switch" was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: "It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities."

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow "deep packet inspection,". Narus technology "allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down."

All of the above is in the public record.

Do you not think its still in the Military's interest to have a pro-US government?

I think they'll be the real obstacle to democracy as even if Mubarack does go by fair means or foul they'll still be behind the scenes protecting their interests.

The figurehead may change but the government will still be in power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4

[muppet]

Looking at this as objectively as possible it seems to me to be a bit of a Hobson's choice.

Mubarak, and his US backed military (has there ever been an example of one of their puppets actually working out?) maintaining the status quo or the rise of something called the Muslim Brotherhood right across north Africa and into the middle East?

Oppressive regime A or repressive regime B?

Dogma Sam or Dogma Imam?

Of course this is further complicated by the presence of Israel for whom dogma isn't quite a strong enough word.

[give her dixie]

In other news in the middle east, Bouteflika, the Algerian dictator has ended a 19 year old state of emergency, King Abdullah of Jordan yesterday dismissed his unpopular government and made a lot of noise about reform, growing unrest in Yemen caused the country's veteran president Ali ­Abdullah Saleh to announce he would not be seeking another term, and in Israel, they are stockpiling toilet paper.......

The winds of change are blowing madly across the middle east, and one things for sure, it will never be the same again.

In Egypt, reporters are been hunted down and arrested. Hotels are been raided by Murbaraks forces and going through every room looking for them. It has become extremly dangerous for them at this stage, and they face serious consequenses if caught.

Gun fire continues to ring out all over the city, and so far 7 people have been killed, and over 1,500 injured. Over 50 thugs arrested so far have been found to be carrying police ID, and many more have admitted to been let out of prison in order to attack people in the square. Several high ranking Israeli spies have been captured in Cairo, and in other cities. No prizes for guessing what they were up to.......

Tomorrow the Egyptians have called for Murbarak to be gone, and masses of people will descend once again on the streets.
There is no going back for the people, and Mubarak has to go, and free and democratic elections need to be held as soon as possible. The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......

[Puckoon]

In other news in the middle east, Bouteflika, the Algerian dictator has ended a 19 year old state of emergency, King Abdullah of Jordan yesterday dismissed his unpopular government and made a lot of noise about reform, growing unrest in Yemen caused the country's veteran president Ali ­Abdullah Saleh to announce he would not be seeking another term, and in Israel, they are stockpiling toilet paper.......

The winds of change are blowing madly across the middle east, and one things for sure, it will never be the same again.

In Egypt, reporters are been hunted down and arrested. Hotels are been raided by Murbaraks forces and going through every room looking for them. It has become extremly dangerous for them at this stage, and they face serious consequenses if caught.

Gun fire continues to ring out all over the city, and so far 7 people have been killed, and over 1,500 injured. Over 50 thugs arrested so far have been found to be carrying police ID, and many more have admitted to been let out of prison in order to attack people in the square. Several high ranking Israeli spies have been captured in Cairo, and in other cities. No prizes for guessing what they were up to.......

Tomorrow the Egyptians have called for Murbarak to be gone, and masses of people will descend once again on the streets.
There is no going back for the people, and Mubarak has to go, and free and democratic elections need to be held as soon as possible. The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......

The winds of change arent the only thing blowing madly.

[muppet]

The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......

Dixie I applauded your trip to Gaza and you deserved it.

However for balance you can't lump all the actions of "Christian Governments" together on one hand and ask us to separate the other side into its constituent parts and individual issues.

[give her dixie]

Thanks Muppet.

On your second point, when I speak about the obsession in the west about the Muslim Brotherhood, it is in context of the western media obsession of implying that they are going to take over Egypt, and the middle east. You yourself in your post (which I didn't see when I had posted), talked about them going into power at some stage.

The media fail to report to the west that the Brotherhood have publicly stated that they have no intention of taking or seeking power in Egypt, and that they want to play a part with a coalition Government headed by ElBareidi. They have given him their full support. The Brotherhood had nothing to do with this uprising which in fact has been started by people from all walks of life in Egypt standing together.

In terms of the media, in the past few days as more and more people in the west are tuning into the news for what is going on, and to listen to the reporters, you would think this is a full blown Islamic revolution. Yesterday while muslims in the square gathered for prayer, the christains surrounded them for protection. Nowhere have I seen that reported in the media. Even Robert Fisk spoke about the obsession. Each and every time he has been interviewed, it's the 1st question he is asked.

[ballinaman]

0.45 seconds......enter scum. Shocking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wi3K8T3pPQ&feature=player_embedded