Middle East landscape rapidly changing

Started by give her dixie, January 25, 2011, 02:05:36 PM

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give her dixie

Quote from: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 05:55:50 PM
I watched Mohamed ElBaradei on Anderson Cooper on CNN last night. http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv I thought he spoke very well, as did a few other Egyptian big wigs based in the US.

I have to say John you are beginning to sound more and more like the fundamentalists running around issuing reckless statements such as "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and "The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected". Revenge, John? More acts like 9/11? Is that what you are calling for? Are you into that sort of thing, or are you not an ambassador for the oppressed, and an ambassador for peace? Is revenge what is in your heart when you're filling vans up at Curelys in dungannon to help the needy of Palestine? If it is, the perception of you being a great man of the oppressed people who gets off his ass and actually goes and helps people will quickly become useless. You've had a lot of well earned and deserved plaudits on here, and in the Irish media due to your courage and desire to help those who are in trouble. War cries like those above however should quickly serve to damage that veneer - especially if the next "revenge" attack takes the lives of a few Irish holiday makers, or more innocents in the wrong place. Which, let us not forget was a result of 9/11. I dare say there wasnt a nation, nor a people on earth not touched by murder that day.

Nothing like giving the likes of Glen Beck and his supporters on here (sweet Jesus that GB is a bonafide mentalist, war monger, somewhat paranoid (ya think), asshole) more ammunition (if you'll excuse the unfortunate pun) to ramble on about the muslim brotherhood and their global desire to change the entire system of civillization.

Nothing to say Puckoon on the violence currently going on in Cairo as thugs who have been armed by Mubarak via the US go about shooting and killing people? Today, over 1,000 people have been injured, and unconfirmed reports of 5 dead. Over 400 people dead in the past week from the barrels of US supplied weapons and you have nothing to say about it? Instead, you take a swipe at me in a lengthy paragraph of shite.

Maybe if you were to travel to the middle east, see the damage that the US have brought down on people you too would be as angry as me. I am fucked off at what US foreign policy has and continues to do. In the past 50 years they have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, and when people speak out against it, we are labelled "extremists". I know who the extremists are, the world knows who the extremists are, and unfortunatly the only people who dont realise it are the dumb people who are fed a diet of shite every day through Fox and CNN.
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

give her dixie

Robert Fisk: Secular and devout. Rich and poor. They marched together with one goal

It was a victory parade – without the victory. They came in their hundreds of thousands, joyful, singing, praying, a great packed mass of Egypt, suburb by suburb, village by village, waiting patiently to pass through the "people's security" checkpoints, draped in the Egyptian flag of red, white and black, its governess eagle a bright gold in the sunlight. Were there a million? Perhaps. Across the country there certainly were. It was, we all agreed, the largest political demonstration in the history of Egypt, the latest heave to rid this country of its least-loved dictator. Its only flaw was that by dusk – and who knew what the night would bring – Hosni Mubarak was still calling himself "President" of Egypt.

Mubarak ended the day as expected, appearing on television to announce that he will hang on until the next election – a promise that will not be accepted by the people he claims to love. The people of Egypt were originally told this was to be "the march of the million" to the Kuba Palace, Mubarak's official state pile, or to the man's own residence in Heliopolis. But so vast was the crowd that the organisers, around 24 opposition groups, decided the danger of attacks from the state security police were too great. They claimed later they had discovered a truck load of armed men close to Tahrir Square. All I could find were 30 Mubarak supporters shouting their love of Egypt outside the state radio headquarters under the guard of more than 40 soldiers.

The cries of loathing for Mubarak are becoming familiar, the posters ever more intriguing. "Neither Mubarak, nor Suleiman, and we don't need you Obama – but we don't dislike USA," one of them announced generously. "Out – all of you, including your slaves," announced another. I did actually find a decaying courtyard covered in rectangular sheets of white cloth where political scribes could spray-paint their own slogans for 40 pence a time. The tea-houses behind Talat Harb's statue were crammed with drinkers, discussing Egypt's new politics with the passion of one of Delacroix's orientalist paintings. You could soak this stuff up all day, revolution in the making. Or was this an uprising? Or an "explosion", as one Egyptian journalist described the demonstration to me?

There were several elements about this unprecedented political event that stood out. First was the secularism of the whole affair. Women in chadors and niqabs and scarves walked happily beside girls with long hair flowing over their shoulders, students next to imams and men with beards that would have made Bin Laden jealous. The poor in torn sandals and the rich in business suits, squeezed into this shouting mass, an amalgam of the real Egypt hitherto divided by class and regime-encouraged envy. They had done the impossible – or so they thought – and, in a way, they had already won their social revolution.

And then there was the absence of the "Islamism" that haunts the darkest corners of the West, encouraged – as usual – by America and Israel. As my mobile phone vibrated again and again, it was the same old story. Every radio anchor, every announcer, every newsroom wanted to know if the Muslim Brotherhood was behind this epic demonstration. Would the Brotherhood take over Egypt? I told the truth. It was rubbish. Why, they might get only 20 per cent at an election, 145,000 members out of a population of 80 million.

A crowd of English-speaking Egyptians crowded round me during one of the imperishable interviews and collapsed in laughter so loud that I had to bring the broadcast to an end. It made no difference, of course, when I explained on air that Israel's kindly and human Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman – who once said that "Mubarak can go to hell" – might at last get his way, politically at least. The people were overwhelmed, giddy at the speed of events.

So was I. There I was, back on the intersection behind the Egyptian Museum where only five days ago – it feels like five months – I choked on tear gas as Mubarak's police thugs, the baltigi, the drug addict ex-prisoner cops, were slipped through the lines of state security policemen to beat, bludgeon and smash the heads and faces of the unarmed demonstrators, who eventually threw them all out of Tahrir Square and made it the Egyptian uprising. Back then, we heard no Western support for these brave men and women. Nor did we hear it yesterday.

Amazingly, there was little evidence of hostility towards America although, given the verbal antics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton these past eight days, there might have well been. One almost felt sorry for Obama. Had he rallied to the kind of democracy he preached here in Cairo six months after his investiture, had he called for the departure of this third-rate dictator a few days ago, the crowds would have been carrying US as well as Egyptian flags, and Washington would have done the impossible: it would have transformed the now familiar hatred of America (Afghanistan, Iraq, the "war on terror", etc) into the more benign relationship which the US enjoyed in the balmy 1920s and 1930s and, indeed, despite its support for the creation of Israel, into the warmth that existed between Arab and American into the 1960s.

But no. All this was squandered in just seven days of weakness and cowardice in Washington – a gutlessness so at odds with the courage of the millions of Egyptians who tried to do what we in the West always demanded of them: to turn their dust-bowl dictatorships into democracies. They supported democracy. We supported "stability", "moderation", "restraint", "firm" leadership (Saddam Hussein-lite) soft "reform" and obedient Muslims.

This failure of moral leadership in the West – under the false fear of "Islamisation" – may prove to be one of the greatest tragedies of the modern Middle East. Egypt is not anti-Western. It is not even particularly anti-Israeli, though this could change. But one of the blights of history will now involve a US president who held out his hand to the Islamic world and then clenched his fist when it fought a dictatorship and demanded democracy.

This tragedy may continue in the coming days as the US and Europe give their support to Mubarak's chosen successor, the chief spy and Israeli negotiator, Vice-President Omar Suleiman. He has called, as we all knew he would, for talks with "all factions" – he even contrived to sound a bit like Obama. But everyone in Egypt knows that his administration will be another military junta which Egyptians will again be invited to trust to ensure the free and fair elections which Mubarak never gave them. Is it possible – is it conceivable – that Israel's favourite Egyptian is going to give these millions the freedom and democracy they demand?

Or that the army which so loyally guarded them today will give such uncritical support to that democracy when it receives $1.3bn a year from Washington? This military machine, which has not fought a war for almost 38 years, is under-trained and over-armed, with largely obsolete equipment – though its new M1A1 tanks were on display yesterday – and deeply embedded in the corporation of big business, hotels and housing complexes, all rewards to favourite generals by the Mubarak regime.

And what were the Americans doing? Rumour: US diplomats were on their way to Egypt to negotiate between a future President Suleiman and opposition groups. Rumour: extra Marines were being drafted into Egypt to defend the US embassy from attack. Fact: Obama finally told Mubarak to go. Fact: a further evacuation of US families from the Marriott Hotel in Cairo, escorted by Egyptian troops and cops, heading for the airport, fleeing from a people who could so easily be their friends.
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

Puckoon

Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?




give her dixie

Puckoon, nowhere on any of my posts did I call for revenge, or say that revenge will be taken out on the US. I simply made the observation that there will probably be revenge for the attacks currently going on, and the silence from the US and the west. The revenge will mostly happen within Egypt, as there is a good chance of civil unrest to go for weeks, if not months. You added the following qoute "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and conviently added in brackets (the USA). Why did you have to do that whenever I never mentioned the USA, or even used this quote here on the board?

Today we had the warmonger Tony Blair showing his support for Mubarak, and last week we had Hilary Clinton calll Mubarak a friend. What sort of message is this to send out to the families of the dead and the injured over the past week? Did these 2 people not stand for democracy?

In your condemnation of the attacks today, you say that "no side is innocent". Are you blaming the people who for days held peaceful protests for the brutal attacks inflicted on them today by Mubaraks thugs?



next stop, September 10, for number 4......

Puckoon

John - your posts and influence extend far beyond this discussion board - with the varying degrees of social media that are everywhere today. You did make a post today (not on this board), but in relation to the situation in the middle east where you stated that "they will pay for this attack on humanity" in a sentence directly after referencing and apportioning blame to the USA. Seems perfectly plausible to paraphrase that correctly for the purposes of the point I wanted to make - which is a little perspective. Now, if I'm reading that wrong - and also taking your revenge post on this thread wrong and out of context - let me know. I don't think you can call anyone else a warmonger when you yourself are saying these kinds of things - even though I understand your passion for the cause.

When I said  - no side is innocent, I am of course not talking about laying blame at the feet of peaceful protestors who have been downtrodden, betrayed and today attacked. I am talking about the grander picture of middle eastern politics - and USA involvment. You can't have a situation like the status quo that exists today without both sides contributing. If it was all one sided we'd have had a winner already. I don't know why Blair said what he did today, its a strange proclimation to make in all honesty, and I see him having to revisit that one. As for Hilary - we already know there is US involvment in all sides of the middle east - and playing the political game is hardly a surprise. What is a good sign is that the president appears to have laid down a marker for Mubarak to get out ASAP (granted without actually ordering him - which again is the politcal game). I'm not convinced you even want to hear any good news coming out of the US adminstration - such seems to be your hatred for it.

Mike Sheehy

A question for you give her dixie.

Do you feel that the people of Egypt (or Jordan or Tunisia) bear ANY responsibility for the political structures of their country and how they have been ruled for the past 30 years or so ?  or is it ALL an american or Israeli conspiracy ?


give her dixie

Good question Mike.

The people don't really bear much responsibility for the political structures because they have to live under a dictatorship. They don't get to vote, they are not allowed to protest, and anyone who protests or speaks out, gets thrown in jail and on most occassions, tortured.

Whenever free and democratic elections were held in Palestine over 4 years ago and Hamas won, the US, Egypt and Israel shut the doors, starved them, and then killed them by the thousand with weapons supplied by the US, and paid for by US taxpayers.

Whenever any resolution is brought against Israel for their breach of human rights of the Palestinians, the US are the only country to oppose them. What message does that send out to the Palestinians, and to the wider region?

These dictators are fully funded and supported by the US. They are funded and supported to protect US interests in the middle east, which amount to oil and Israel. Israel have been murdering Palestinians by the thousands, stealing their land day by day, and the US fully supports their actions 100%. Practically every politician in the US falls over themselves in their support for them. More US politicians vist Israel than every other country put together.

Can you recall any sanctions been placed on Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, Saudi, etc due to their oppression and severe disregard for human rights? For nearly 20 years, serious sanctions were placed on Iraq which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, mostly childen.

Why were sanctions not imposed  on the others for their violations of human rights?
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

Tyrones own

Quote from: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 06:18:12 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 05:55:50 PM
I watched Mohamed ElBaradei on Anderson Cooper on CNN last night. http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv I thought he spoke very well, as did a few other Egyptian big wigs based in the US.

I have to say John you are beginning to sound more and more like the fundamentalists running around issuing reckless statements such as "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and "The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected". Revenge, John? More acts like 9/11? Is that what you are calling for? Are you into that sort of thing, or are you not an ambassador for the oppressed, and an ambassador for peace? Is revenge what is in your heart when you're filling vans up at Curelys in dungannon to help the needy of Palestine? If it is, the perception of you being a great man of the oppressed people who gets off his ass and actually goes and helps people will quickly become useless. You've had a lot of well earned and deserved plaudits on here, and in the Irish media due to your courage and desire to help those who are in trouble. War cries like those above however should quickly serve to damage that veneer - especially if the next "revenge" attack takes the lives of a few Irish holiday makers, or more innocents in the wrong place. Which, let us not forget was a result of 9/11. I dare say there wasnt a nation, nor a people on earth not touched by murder that day.

Nothing like giving the likes of Glen Beck and his supporters on here (sweet Jesus that GB is a bonafide mentalist, war monger, somewhat paranoid (ya think), asshole) more ammunition (if you'll excuse the unfortunate pun) to ramble on about the muslim brotherhood and their global desire to change the entire system of civillization.

Nothing to say Puckoon on the violence currently going on in Cairo as thugs who have been armed by Mubarak via the US go about shooting and killing people? Today, over 1,000 people have been injured, and unconfirmed reports of 5 dead. Over 400 people dead in the past week from the barrels of US supplied weapons and you have nothing to say about it? Instead, you take a swipe at me in a lengthy paragraph of shite.

Maybe if you were to travel to the middle east, see the damage that the US have brought down on people you too would be as angry as me. I am fucked off at what US foreign policy has and continues to do. In the past 50 years they have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, and when people speak out against it, we are labelled "extremists". I know who the extremists are, the world knows who the extremists are, and unfortunatly the only people who dont realise it are the dumb people who are fed a diet of shite every day through Fox and CNN.
And then you proceed to post an article from Fisk... Irony anyone :D
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
  - Walter Lippmann

Tyrones own

Quote from: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 06:40:31 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

You disagree fully with me yet proceed to say exactly what I've been saying for over a year now about the anti everything west, rambling hater ::)

Can you not defend yourself without using me to lean on?
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
  - Walter Lippmann

Puckoon

TO - You're the only reference point on this board for that end of the scale - which is an end I disagree with. Not a matter of a) defending myself, or b) leaning on you.

I disagree fully with your Glen Beck directline "the muslim brotherhood want to take over the world" diatribes. I watched that ballocks for the first time last night - I don't know if you caught the broadcast and he is an embarrassment of a man.

Its some ping pong match alright to read you and dixie on here both professing that yiz each are right and its the other one who is a fundamentalist.

give her dixie

Al Jazeera still providing excellent coverage from Tahrir Square as the attacks are ongoing.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

puskas

on checking, Blair's "courageous Mubarak, force for good" comment on CNN was made in the context of his role in the I/P situation, and also before today's events it should be added. doesn't redeem the comments very much but still it's not as blatant as is being reported in some sources. 

Tyrones own

Quote from: puskas on February 02, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
on checking, Blair's "courageous Mubarak, force for good" comment on CNN was made in the context of his role in the I/P situation, and also before today's events it should be added. doesn't redeem the comments very much but still it's not as blatant as is being reported in some sources.
Careful Puskas...such facts only stand to tarnish the polished
sensationalism on display here :-X
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
  - Walter Lippmann

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 06:40:31 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

Who is kissing his feet - thats the type of metaphor i expect from that muppet Tyrone own. It implies we are in awe of Dixie and believe everything he says because he says it. Personally I have had a great interest in the middle east for a long time and the way the west has manipulated the region for decades and even centuries and now we have one big dangerous mess. The west and especially the yanks are quite simply to blame for this. Call me biased or whatever you want but when I look at the facts that is what they say. The Shah proped up in Iran, Mubarek in Egpt, Sadam in Iraq, Israel armed to the teeth and allowed slaughter whoever they like in Palestine and lebanon and further afield and then the same people decry the lack of democracy. What is the balance you speak of. What facts are there that show that the US has supported democracy and free elections in these countries, i'd love to see the counterbalance I really would. The US (and indeed the west in general) have a simple policy in the middle east, my enemies enemy is my friend, a policy that has failed miserably.

Arthur_Friend

Quote from: Tyrones own on February 02, 2011, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 06:40:31 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

You disagree fully with me yet proceed to say exactly what I've been saying for over a year now about the anti everything west, rambling hater ::)

Can you not defend yourself without using me to lean on?

Can you explain how GHD is "anti everything west" and provide examples please?