The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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brokencrossbar1

Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.

Avondhu star

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.

Oh dear. Sorry for disturbing your fairytale view of the world
Lee Harvey Oswald , your country needs you

Milltown Row2

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.

I will tel you this though BC1, if you were to sit down with 95% of the posters on here you'd have a decent debate and there may be an outcome that both of you will agree on (in parts) and there will be a some of it that you will agree to disagree with..

Face to face people are different, a lot of shit is lost when in these places (chat rooms) where most people hide behind a keyboard and say some shit that they wouldnt say to their wife friends or work colleauges, is it what they are really thinking or are they winding people up?

Never judge the reality of life through the disccusion board, I'd never take half the shit on here as being serious
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Syferus

#2208
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.

There's still people who simply are rape apologists and will weasel reasons to hold sexist opinions out of thin air and will hold those opinions despite any amount of contrary evidence, BC1. This has very little to do with the particulars of any single trial and can be seen in discussion around other cases like the Ched Evans one. You don't need to know the intimate details of a case to be able to identify people who are talking about those cases in bad faith. And then there are people who don't believe themselves to be acting in bad faith but are clearly being informed by societal prejudices.

Whatever your opinion on the supposed meta of trials pointing those types of people out is still entirely valid and better than letting them go unnoticed.

The opposite is much worse and clearly we have a breaking point with sexual assault with movements like MeToo. What could be swept under the rug when you were a kid no longer is possible. That is a positive development, to be honest.

AQMP

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:35:03 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 12:29:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:22:20 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 11:15:55 AM
Regardless to all the stuff on here or anywhere.. this is a he said she said thing, her word against theirs, the best witness has to be the girl that walked into the actual act, if she was brought in by the prosecution then it was to discredit PJ and his claim of not having intercourse, by the same token there was no physical evidence of that (no semen, olny Oldings) and the tear in the vagina would probably more sugest he did in fact use his hand/fingers..

Too many things for me to get the right result i feel

Is the IP hidden from the jury?

I see your point MR2, but another way of looking at that is that it's the "best witness" (who said she saw Jackson having full intercourse with the complainant) vs. Jackson (who says he didn't have full intercourse with her).  Right enough, I accept she seems to have been a risky witness for the prosecution to bring forward but I think that's why they did.  Even Jackson's QC referred to her testimony as key - he means the bit about it not looking like a rape - but if you accept that bit then you must accept that Jackson is lying/mistaken/confused/hammered about his contact with the girl??

I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

That didn't stop Olding! 

Sorry, are you saying that the witness thought she saw Jackson having full sex with the alleged victim but he actually wasn't??

I'm saying anything as i wasnt there, and neither were you, i'm giving another point to this, if this case was black and white it would be over by now and verdict given..

But Dara Florence was, and she says she saw Jackson having full intercourse with the alleged victim, no mention of dry humping or fingers.  In fact the defence accepts that when he saw Florence, Jackson said "Do you want to join in?"  "Join in" to what...dry humping??

I just said that I believe her, do you also believe the girl when she said she didnt notice anyone coming in or heard the words do you want to join in? Do you also accept that there would be physical evidence of PJ having intercourse?

Alls I'm saying is that if you believe Ms Florence's version of events, then you cannot simultaneously believe Jackson's version.

seafoid

Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:35:03 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 12:29:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:22:20 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: AQMP on March 16, 2018, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 11:15:55 AM
Regardless to all the stuff on here or anywhere.. this is a he said she said thing, her word against theirs, the best witness has to be the girl that walked into the actual act, if she was brought in by the prosecution then it was to discredit PJ and his claim of not having intercourse, by the same token there was no physical evidence of that (no semen, olny Oldings) and the tear in the vagina would probably more sugest he did in fact use his hand/fingers..

Too many things for me to get the right result i feel

Is the IP hidden from the jury?

I see your point MR2, but another way of looking at that is that it's the "best witness" (who said she saw Jackson having full intercourse with the complainant) vs. Jackson (who says he didn't have full intercourse with her).  Right enough, I accept she seems to have been a risky witness for the prosecution to bring forward but I think that's why they did.  Even Jackson's QC referred to her testimony as key - he means the bit about it not looking like a rape - but if you accept that bit then you must accept that Jackson is lying/mistaken/confused/hammered about his contact with the girl??

I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

That didn't stop Olding! 

Sorry, are you saying that the witness thought she saw Jackson having full sex with the alleged victim but he actually wasn't??

I'm saying anything as i wasnt there, and neither were you, i'm giving another point to this, if this case was black and white it would be over by now and verdict given..

But Dara Florence was, and she says she saw Jackson having full intercourse with the alleged victim, no mention of dry humping or fingers.  In fact the defence accepts that when he saw Florence, Jackson said "Do you want to join in?"  "Join in" to what...dry humping??

I just said that I believe her, do you also believe the girl when she said she didnt notice anyone coming in or heard the words do you want to join in? Do you also accept that there would be physical evidence of PJ having intercourse?

Alls I'm saying is that if you believe Ms Florence's version of events, then you cannot simultaneously believe Jackson's version.
If you can't believe Jackson it is hard to see how the other 3 were telling the truth.  They remind me of 4 mountaineers connected by a rope on the edge of a deep ravine. Either they all make it or none  of them do.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.
+1

gallsman

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.

You dont know, and you weren't there.. id say the chances are very slim to none, but thats what he's said and they are going with that, you'd be a moron to guess what happened on the night and an idiot to suggest otherwise. as none of their stories (IP Defendants) seem convincing
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Tony Baloney

Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 16, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.
+1
Great post BCB. The vast majority feel they need to pick a side as everything is binary. You have to be either green or orange or red or blue, snowflakes or facsists, boys versus girls. Lots of people (inc. on this thread) don't seem to understand nuance or shades of grey. Social media has exacerbated this as everyone thinks their opinion is valid and must be heard so you then have people playing to the crowd (virtue signallers) who need attention and affirmation that they are on "the right side".

I used to think it was a generational thing and it was younger people but this thread confirms that it crosses every boundary. And you're right it is sad.

gallsman

I can think of no instance where anybody I know, or anybody I have heard of or ever encountered has thought "I can't get it up ffs. Hang on a moment, I'll just bang away with my flaccid length for a wee bit". It simply doesn't happen. Anyone even contemplating the idea that this is what happened would want to have a long, hard look at themselves.

The fact people are giving Dara Florence's testimony credence but then crying foul that she didn't walk up and verify with her own eyes that she saw him penetrate her vagina with an erect penis is embarrassing.

Syferus

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2018, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 16, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.
+1
Great post BCB. The vast majority feel they need to pick a side as everything is binary. You have to be either green or orange or red or blue, snowflakes or facsists, boys versus girls. Lots of people (inc. on this thread) don't seem to understand nuance or shades of grey. Social media has exacerbated this as everyone thinks their opinion is valid and must be heard so you then have people playing to the crowd (virtue signallers) who need attention and affirmation that they are on "the right side".

I used to think it was a generational thing and it was younger people but this thread confirms that it crosses every boundary. And you're right it is sad.

Tony, the use of alt-right terminology like 'virtue signaller' shows you have either knowingly or unknowingly picked a side. It totally undercuts your point when you use loaded terms like that.

There's plenty of over-reaction these days but it's much better overall than the lack of reaction and disgust that sexual assault and rape received in the not so distant past.

gallsman

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2018, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 16, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.
+1
Great post BCB. The vast majority feel they need to pick a side as everything is binary. You have to be either green or orange or red or blue, snowflakes or facsists, boys versus girls. Lots of people (inc. on this thread) don't seem to understand nuance or shades of grey. Social media has exacerbated this as everyone thinks their opinion is valid and must be heard so you then have people playing to the crowd (virtue signallers) who need attention and affirmation that they are on "the right side".

I used to think it was a generational thing and it was younger people but this thread confirms that it crosses every boundary. And you're right it is sad.

I agree, but absolutely ludicrousness should be called out and condemned.

Tony Baloney

Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 16, 2018, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: gallsman on March 16, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 16, 2018, 12:03:57 PM
I reckon he couldnt get it up, very natural thing to happen when youre plastered and was dry humping her, no semen would sugest this, as your normally have some semem of sorts.. I do believe the girl who walked in and seen what she seen, and its her story i believe will actually get the guys off

If you genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe this, then you are are moron and an idiot.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 16, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 16, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Myself and a few friends recently sat and discussed the whole notion of debate. The whole idea of opinion expressing and how it has changed. The general consensus was that people's opinions have very much gone down the lines of black or white and if you don't agree then you're a 'facist'  a such and such apologist etc etc. This thread is a prime example of that. Politics is a prime example of that and now it's all extreme, one side or the other. Perhaps this girl was raped, perhaps she wasn't. There's only 3-4 people who know the actual truth and their stories all vary. I have an opinion but that's all it is. My opinion also doesn't reflect what I believe the outcome might be as that is going to be determined by 11 other people's opinions.

This thread has really opened my eyes about how some people see the world and it is not nice. It really isn't.
+1
Great post BCB. The vast majority feel they need to pick a side as everything is binary. You have to be either green or orange or red or blue, snowflakes or facsists, boys versus girls. Lots of people (inc. on this thread) don't seem to understand nuance or shades of grey. Social media has exacerbated this as everyone thinks their opinion is valid and must be heard so you then have people playing to the crowd (virtue signallers) who need attention and affirmation that they are on "the right side".

I used to think it was a generational thing and it was younger people but this thread confirms that it crosses every boundary. And you're right it is sad.

I agree, but absolutely ludicrousness should be called out and condemned.
Always. And there is always plenty of it around these parts.

Tony Baloney

Syf forget about the terminology. There is no denying that people use social media to latch onto causes which will allow them to bask in some reflected glory. Lots of people have said (paraphrasing) that Jackson etc. should be hung by the balls yet when you try to he sensible and say they haven't been convicted of anything, you get tarred as a "rape apologist." No sane person would jump to their defence if they did it and were found guilty and some would advocate hanging them by the balls. But the reality is they are presumed innocent whether you have pre-concieved notions of the individuals; notions which may be driven by class, religion, the sport they play, the school they went to. It's very dangerous territory.