Author Topic: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle  (Read 4524 times)

rosnarun

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
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Hardy

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 03:30:45 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

It's all about skill now.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

ck

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 03:33:40 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.

* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given

If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.

AZOffaly

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 03:39:45 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.

* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given

If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.

Whatever about rule changes I certainly don't think the 'minimum of 4 players in the attacking half' will work in practice. I do a good bit of coaching with young kids, and we play in these blitzes where there's a similar rule to that. It's obviously not designed to counter negative play, but rather to try stop a strong young lad running all over the field and dominating everything.

However what it does show, and what would be worse at adult level, is that you can't strictly enforce a rule like that. Imagine the scenario. A ball is cleared out the field by the defending team, however it's not going to make halfway. The 'forward' has to stand on the halfway line waving at the ball to reach him like a child calling a bold dog. The lad marking him, unencumbered by any such rule, drives forward into the opposition half, picks up the ball and launches an attack.

Or likewise a defender wins a ball and starts to launch a counter attack. He's bombing forward and his marker is chasing hard and tackling. When they reach halfway, what happens? The marker is pulled back on his leash like the Bulldog in Tom and Jerry?

In a free flowing game like gaelic football, it's very difficult to enforce a rule whereby a man has to stop pursuing a ball until it reaches his zone. Especially when others in the same zone can go ahead and do what they like.

Imagine the frustration of that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:46:20 PM by AZOffaly »

magpie seanie

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 03:45:16 PM »
I think the other two suggested rule changes could work. Defences would try to adjust in some way to stop the inside the 21 mark but that might generate more space elsewhere. It would be interesting to see how it would work out.

macdanger2

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2017, 04:02:22 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.

* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given

If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.

Whatever about rule changes I certainly don't think the 'minimum of 4 players in the attacking half' will work in practice. I do a good bit of coaching with young kids, and we play in these blitzes where there's a similar rule to that. It's obviously not designed to counter negative play, but rather to try stop a strong young lad running all over the field and dominating everything.

However what it does show, and what would be worse at adult level, is that you can't strictly enforce a rule like that. Imagine the scenario. A ball is cleared out the field by the defending team, however it's not going to make halfway. The 'forward' has to stand on the halfway line waving at the ball to reach him like a child calling a bold dog. The lad marking him, unencumbered by any such rule, drives forward into the opposition half, picks up the ball and launches an attack.

Or likewise a defender wins a ball and starts to launch a counter attack. He's bombing forward and his marker is chasing hard and tackling. When they reach halfway, what happens? The marker is pulled back on his leash like the Bulldog in Tom and Jerry?

In a free flowing game like gaelic football, it's very difficult to enforce a rule whereby a man has to stop pursuing a ball until it reaches his zone. Especially when others in the same zone can go ahead and do what they like.

Imagine the frustration of that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA

I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of the rule as I think it's overly complicated tbh. However, the first problem you mention is easily solved by keeping 5 forwards in the opposition half. The second would be countered by imposing a similar requirement on the defenders - have to keep 4 back.

Like I said though, too difficult to police in practice imo




Zulu

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 04:05:33 PM »
I don't think we need rule changes. ck said we can't wait for managers to throw off the shackles but I think we can. Donegal took a defensive concept to its extreme and were reasonably successful as players couldn't change their spots however, after a few years teams copped on and they will now all adopt a patient probing counter tactic to a massed defence. This will render the blanket pretty ineffective and managers will need to consider something else.

I think minor rule changes might help but the way forward for any decent team is to play the game the way Mayo and Dublin do. 

mrhardyannual

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 04:14:41 PM »
I don't think we need rule changes. ck said we can't wait for managers to throw off the shackles but I think we can. Donegal took a defensive concept to its extreme and were reasonably successful as players couldn't change their spots however, after a few years teams copped on and they will now all adopt a patient probing counter tactic to a massed defence. This will render the blanket pretty ineffective and managers will need to consider something else.

I think minor rule changes might help but the way forward for any decent team is to play the game the way Mayo and Dublin do.
I have to agree. The closing rounds of the Mayo championships from junior to senior grades have had high scoring entertaining games. Last night's senior semi-final replay between Garrymore and Castlebar drew a huge crowd of neutrals. Given that Garrymore have played with a sweeper system you might have expected a dull game but no so. Great entertainment.

johnneycool

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 04:20:52 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

It's all about skill now.

Does anybody do those types of drills anymore?


AZOffaly

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 04:22:56 PM »
I use something similar for warmups I have to say. It's done quicker than that mind you, and we transition into a kicking version as well. I think most of the 'drill's now are actually more like games, certainly mine are.

Zulu

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 04:28:14 PM »
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.

However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.

Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....

The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.

thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening

It's all about skill now.

Does anybody do those types of drills anymore?

Jesus, not sure what they are trying to do there. I do most of my warm ups in grids so basically the players are running about in whatever direction they want performing whatever skills are assigned with short high intensity periods and/or players to put on partial pressure.

Any drills I do now are generally just for a few minutes between games and even then, only for younger kids who need to do some straight line skill development.

Captain Obvious

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2017, 04:59:47 PM »
Donegal in 2012 scored on average 17 points per game. Their All Ireland series matches against Cork,Kerry,Mayo were all good quality and enjoyable contests for the majority of the neutral viewers. In their 2014 All Ireland semi final shock win against Dublin they scored 3-14 and conceded 0-17. I'm not sure why a Donegal final last Sunday that ended 7-4 is comparable to what Donegal seniors under McGuinness at their peak did.

In this years All Ireland semi final Tyrone not having a cut,getting in Dublin faces was more their downfall than their defensive system getting found out. Tyrone will learn from that but i'd question if they good enough to learn as much as Donegal did from 2011

BennyCake

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2017, 05:17:21 PM »
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.

It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.

lenny

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2017, 05:28:29 PM »
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.

It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.

Yeah, because with fewer players they'd have to go man for man, just like soccer - not. Fewer players might be a good idea especially at senior level but it is extremely unlikely to bring back man for man marking.

Cunny Funt

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Re: I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2017, 05:32:11 PM »
The poor defensive teams still go man to man and that explains why few of them if any are unable to make progress.