Cavan vs. Monaghan - Sunday June 11th - Breffni (el clasico)

[Itchy]

Best game of the Ulster Championship to date.Incidentally is Cisneros Mackey vastly underrated? He never seems to have a poor game.

Mackey was decent but he's played better. I think he's not taking people on like he used to and actually no one on cavan team bar mcvetty seems to. Gearoid a big disappointment again today, too easily removed from the game by a spoiler.

[cavanmaniac]

So the vocal minority that insisted on Hyland was not rid off, whatvsay ye now with league relegation and out of ulster at 1st hurdle?

Here we go again. Not trying to start a row with you, Itchy, or anyone, but Terry got a more than decent crack of the whip, narrowly but repeatedly fell short of his stated ambition and vacated the position subsequent to stating that he would stay on if the players wanted him, which obviously proved not to be the case. He was given the time and latitude his work deserved and some say he should even have got more; this massive goodwill and infinite patience that some would extend him, even after four/five years, is in direct contrast to the carping and sniping directed at his successor after barely a few months in charge. I can't understand it. McGleenan has scarcely warmed his seat and although it's too early to judge I can't see how he's doing any worse after giving us a shot at staying in Division 1 with some scalps the like of which we never claimed under Terry, running Monaghan close in championship, all without a number of key players (most notably Givney) that Hyland enjoyed the services of? Bottom line is that the previous manager's day was done and IMO it's better to fail trying someone fresh with the potential for progress, than carrying on with a project that had clearly and inarguably stalled. 

The constant harking back to Hyland every time we suffer a defeat is reactive and pretty embarrassing to be honest. I've nothing against him, before anyone starts chucking their toys out of the pram, and maybe he might come back and manage us again in a few years with fresh ideas - and I'd support him if he did - but for God's sake, to everyone who wheels out the Hyland references any time we hit a bump, just cool the jets and give Mattie a chance and at least the qualifiers and next year's league before sharpening the knives!

[Itchy]

So the vocal minority that insisted on Hyland was not rid off, whatvsay ye now with league relegation and out of ulster at 1st hurdle?

Here we go again. Not trying to start a row with you, Itchy, or anyone, but Terry got a more than decent crack of the whip, narrowly but repeatedly fell short of his stated ambition and vacated the position subsequent to stating that he would stay on if the players wanted him, which obviously proved not to be the case. He was given the time and latitude his work deserved and some say he should even have got more; this massive goodwill and infinite patience that some would extend him, even after four/five years, is in direct contrast to the carping and sniping directed at his successor after barely a few months in charge. I can't understand it. McGleenan has scarcely warmed his seat and although it's too early to judge I can't see how he's doing any worse after giving us a shot at staying in Division 1 with some scalps the like of which we never claimed under Terry, running Monaghan close in championship, all without a number of key players (most notably Givney) that Hyland enjoyed the services of? Bottom line is that the previous manager's day was done and IMO it's better to fail trying someone fresh with the potential for progress, than carrying on with a project that had clearly and inarguably stalled. 

The constant harking back to Hyland every time we suffer a defeat is reactive and pretty embarrassing to be honest. I've nothing against him, before anyone starts chucking their toys out of the pram, and maybe he might come back and manage us again in a few years with fresh ideas - and I'd support him if he did - but for God's sake, to everyone who wheels out the Hyland references any time we hit a bump, just cool the jets and give Mattie a chance and at least the qualifiers and next year's league before sharpening the knives!

I'm just point out to you that maybe Hyland was getting the best out of the players already and got incremental improvements year on year. We have just taken a step backwards this year and that is plain to see. Its all very well demanding change at the helm but what if you have nothing better to replace the boss with? Mattie so far has not impressed me one bit, performances on the field as akin to what Hyland was doing 3 years ago - no pace or cut to the attack. This uber positive nonsense he talks after every game is also starting to grate. I am not calling for his head but my opinion is that this is a poor start and he needs to quickly improve. I just hope he can rally the troops for a run in the qualifiers but I think that might be hard done as a few of them guys would have seen this years draw as our best chance of an Ulster final appearance in some time and losing yesterday was a real kick in the nuts.

[Taylor]

McManus is lethal and one of the best forwards in Ireland but why oh why would a man not take a black card to pull him down?

It was like an under 12 game the way he waltzed around him

[mrdeeds]

Best game of the Ulster Championship to date.Incidentally is Cisneros Mackey vastly underrated? He never seems to have a poor game.

Mackey was decent but he's played better. I think he's not taking people on like he used to and actually no one on cavan team bar mcvetty seems to. Gearoid a big disappointment again today, too easily removed from the game by a spoiler.

I'd like to see him.play in ff line. That pace he had is gone but still has the intelligence.

[GrandMasterFlash]

It was funny watching the highlights on TSG. They were portraying it as a good game between two evenly matched teams.. That seemed contrary to the game I was at. I thought it was hard watching; the conditions were not good which certainly didn't help. When you see 2/3 men running away from the man on the ball to get back into their defensive shell you ask yourself, why do you watch and coach the game? I'm obviously happy with the win but it was certainly a win ugly scenario. Cavan's game plan seemed to be working for them at half-time in that they had contained Monaghan. With the wind advantage (and it was significant in the first half) a two point advantage was not gonna be enough. Beggan definitely made better use of the strong wind in the first half than Galligan did in the second, giving Monaghan 2 or 3 uncontested kickouts resulting in points. Tactically, MOR got it right in that he kept McCarthy and McAnespie in reserve and started Duffy (who got some great scores and played a great ball over the top of the defense for the goal) and Malone. I thought both teams were reluctant to run at the opposing defense, and I can understand it up to a point as there were few openings in the blanket. Cavan seemed to break the defensive line easier in the first half that Monaghan, especially up their left hand wing. But, and this in a big concern for me (and not just yesterday), when Monaghan went 4 up with the wind at the crucial half way stage in the second half they should have put Cavan away, full stop. Instead, the were wasteful in front of the posts and kept Cavan in it by doing so. They didn't panic however which is a distinctive quality to have. For Cavan, Mackey tried hard in the second half and looked a threat when coming forward but you could see the energy and ideas waining as the game went on. I'd say if McVeety had of been able to start it could have been different as he is a great player at prising open the defense and creating and taking scores.

Onwards and Down-wards..

[Westside]

So the vocal minority that insisted on Hyland was not rid off, whatvsay ye now with league relegation and out of ulster at 1st hurdle?

Here we go again. Not trying to start a row with you, Itchy, or anyone, but Terry got a more than decent crack of the whip, narrowly but repeatedly fell short of his stated ambition and vacated the position subsequent to stating that he would stay on if the players wanted him, which obviously proved not to be the case. He was given the time and latitude his work deserved and some say he should even have got more; this massive goodwill and infinite patience that some would extend him, even after four/five years, is in direct contrast to the carping and sniping directed at his successor after barely a few months in charge. I can't understand it. McGleenan has scarcely warmed his seat and although it's too early to judge I can't see how he's doing any worse after giving us a shot at staying in Division 1 with some scalps the like of which we never claimed under Terry, running Monaghan close in championship, all without a number of key players (most notably Givney) that Hyland enjoyed the services of? Bottom line is that the previous manager's day was done and IMO it's better to fail trying someone fresh with the potential for progress, than carrying on with a project that had clearly and inarguably stalled. 

The constant harking back to Hyland every time we suffer a defeat is reactive and pretty embarrassing to be honest. I've nothing against him, before anyone starts chucking their toys out of the pram, and maybe he might come back and manage us again in a few years with fresh ideas - and I'd support him if he did - but for God's sake, to everyone who wheels out the Hyland references any time we hit a bump, just cool the jets and give Mattie a chance and at least the qualifiers and next year's league before sharpening the knives!

Clearly and inarguably stalled?? There's no case for this at all. We had just been promoted to Division 1 for the first time in donkeys years and brought eventual champions Tyrone to a replay in an Ulster Semi Final. How is that not progress to what came before?
We were a better team last year on the evidence of yesterday. We weren't perfect under Hyland nor were we good enough to win Ulster but we were closer than we are now.
Hyland could hardly claim scalps in Division 1 when he didn't get a chance to manage in that division could he? McGleenan gets scalps but Hyland deserves no credit for league improvement because it's only championship wins that matters, complete double standards.

Cavan were still improving under Hyland, there's no case to say we weren't. People called for his head and they were flat out wrong. It's only natural for those of us who could see this to bring it up after we get relegated and knocked out in the first round of the championship in our last 2 games.

[Duckquay]

Just to be crystal clear, it was the players who "called for his head".

[Itchy]

Just to be crystal clear, it was the players who "called for his head".

Don't know if that is true but being frank, players should have no say in this. Too many have vested interests - just look at Mayo. Also its an interesting thing that if that is true how is it that Hyland had players available to him in his last year that wouldn't commit this year - strange behaviour if we are to believe what you said about them calling for his head.

I genuinely wish Mattie success but if he is to succeed he has taken a backward step but hopefully that is part of getting a forward step later. Cant say I am convinced.

[Westside]

Regardless of whether the players wanted him to stay or not, there was a very vocal group that wanted him gone and said he was holding back a group of players with the potential to be Ulster Champions. It's interesting that few seem to be calling for McGleenan's head, we're now being told that we lack the players and we lack the leaders required. I can Guarantee if Hyland had been in charge, we'd have 'thrown away a game' that was 'there for the taking' and the game would have been 'lost on the line'.

When do we play Westmeath/Offaly?

[Itchy]

Regardless of whether the players wanted him to stay or not, there was a very vocal group that wanted him gone and said he was holding back a group of players with the potential to be Ulster Champions. It's interesting that few seem to be calling for McGleenan's head, we're now being told that we lack the players and we lack the leaders required. I can Guarantee if Hyland had been in charge, we'd have 'thrown away a game' that was 'there for the taking' and the game would have been 'lost on the line'.

When do we play Westmeath/Offaly?

Weekend after next I think. Cavan have the advantage of being able to watch the replay too which should set them up for success assuming they are interested in giving it a go.

[Duckquay]

Killian Clarke's interview in the IN Saturday was pretty clear that the players wanted the change. It isn't the way I think things should work for the record. I also know well that other external voices wanted Terry out but if the players wanted him to stay he'd still be there.
I think the next game is away but there should be no apathy towards it. It's must win end of.

[upmonaghansayswe]

At half time in 3 of the last 4 championship games, 2001, 2015 and 2017 the score was 9 7 to Cavan. There was even 16 points in the first half of 2013, 1-5 to 8.

[cavanmaniac]

I'm just point out to you that maybe Hyland was getting the best out of the players already and got incremental improvements year on year. We have just taken a step backwards this year and that is plain to see. Its all very well demanding change at the helm but what if you have nothing better to replace the boss with? Mattie so far has not impressed me one bit, performances on the field as akin to what Hyland was doing 3 years ago - no pace or cut to the attack. This uber positive nonsense he talks after every game is also starting to grate. I am not calling for his head but my opinion is that this is a poor start and he needs to quickly improve. I just hope he can rally the troops for a run in the qualifiers but I think that might be hard done as a few of them guys would have seen this years draw as our best chance of an Ulster final appearance in some time and losing yesterday was a real kick in the nuts.

That's all very sensible and I go along with it for the better part Itchy, and I too have reservations about our new manager, but what I'm mainly saying is that if Terry was given ample time to get his ducks in a row over the course of a few years then Mattie should get at least two without the ghost of the former manager being invoked all the time. It's pointless and counterproductive. In many ways we are a more impatient bunch with Mattie I think, because we've become both accustomed to being back in the picture because of the fine work that Hyland did yet also a bit edgy after the length of time he was there without getting us to an Ulster final at the very least.

To Westside, I think we butted heads on TH before, and we can argue the philosophy of players having an input into decisions but they are best-placed to know and if Terry himself entrusted them - publicly - to make the decision, who are we to argue? If you read between the lines of lads like Givney and Keating and Johnston all coming back to give it a whirl last year, it all pointed to Ulster-or-bust and one last dance with Terry in 2016, I think the path had been laid out well in advance anyway.

Furthermore, if you feel that the draw against Tyrone showed a leap forward in progress under Hyland then that's your opinion but I - and I think most others - wouldn't share it as the only place we were Tyrone's equal that day was on the scoreboard; where it matters most, I know, but really, I thought we were completely controlled and dominated that day but for some goals against the run of play. Those chickens came home to roost in the replay which you neglected to mention and then we were humbled by a fairly average Derry side in the qualifiers which you didn't refer to either? I think that's a fairly sober analysis of the picture and not really a double standard. Monaghan getting out of Breffni with a win in 2015 too, was an appalling and galling choke by the team. It doesn't mean TH is an incompetent because he absolutely deserves our respect but to me, that's certainly not an upward trajectory at all. Put it with the two prior losses to Roscommon and Armagh and it's a less flattering picture overall. It's just my opinion now, but I think we weren't going forward under him any more and it was time for a change, and again it's subjective and nothing personal against him but based on his league record too, I couldn't really see him doing much in Division 1 this year either based on his record in big games, league or championship. You'll disagree of course and that's fine. As I'm typing I'm recalling our previous debate!
Mattie of course has not covered himself in glory but after managing a respectable showing in trying circumstances in his first few months at intercounty, in Division 1 among the sharks, while not overly giving him 'credit' as such I am saying let's give him these qualifiers and next year's league, free of the spectre of his predecessor, and then see where we are at. If he messes it up down the line, Terry is available and wants to come back with fresh ideas and the players aren't likely to suffer from 'same-voice' syndrome in the dressing room, I'd have no problem with that.