http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=277137
Very interesting and depressing Article by Manus Boyle. 2 points scored in the second half of last weeks Donegal SFC Final. Happening all over the country.
I hope the game evolves to eliminate the effectiveness of the blanket, if it doesn't people will stop going to games or some rule changes will be required.
I know this area has been covered before, but Manus is bang on I'm my opinion except I don't think he could play as well as he thinks he could.
Quote from: sligoman2 on October 19, 2017, 01:08:20 PM
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=277137
Very interesting and depressing Article by Manus Boyle. 2 points scored in the second half of last weeks Donegal SFC Final. Happening all over the country Ulster.
I hope the game evolves to eliminate the effectiveness of the blanket, if it doesn't people will stop going to games or some rule changes will be required.
I know this area has been covered before, but Manus is bang on I'm my opinion except I don't think he could play as well as he thinks he could.
Fixed that for you :P
Couldn't we just send a Terminator back in time to take out Jim McGuinness?
Manus night think he is talking about football in general but he's really talking about the shite he has to endure in Donegal club & to a lesser extent county football.
Armagh club football is quite open and entertaining, our County team has abanded the ultra defensive football. Even for some of the unwatchable County football that Tyrone can produce, their club scene is not similarly afflicted.
It happened in my own club 2 weeks ago in a drawn game v Tubbercurry. Thankfully we decided that the best form of defense is attack for the replay and won handily..
It wasn't a one off. the 0-10 to 0-2 game against Coolaney/Mullinabreena too. Preparing for the Mayo champions I understand.
Take 4 players off each team. 11 a side. You'll see a totally different game (and no, I don't mean soccer!)
It's the obvious answer.
A League game in Donegal last year was worse https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjnz6Ha2_zWAhXFY1AKHZUjD2QQFghOMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hoganstand.com%2FArticleForm.aspx%3FID%3D258552&usg=AOvVaw19WsLhpbR3fLpiL4vgpY3n
Speak for yerselves.
I think Manus is too focused on the game in Donegal. In the two Dublin semi-finals last weekend there was a total of eight goals and fifty two points scored. Also the blanket defence was well and truly found out in the hammering of Tyrone in the AI semi-final this year.
The abomination that was Donegal football is on it's last legs.
Quote from: mouview on October 19, 2017, 01:15:47 PM
Couldn't we just send a Terminator back in time to take out Jim McGuinness?
Mcguinness only slightly refined what harte had brought in with 13 or 14 players back in defence. I blame harte 100% for the rotten and unwatchable football that is played nowadays.
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on October 19, 2017, 02:06:53 PM
I think Manus is too focused on the game in Donegal. In the two Dublin semi-finals last weekend there was a total of eight goals and fifty two points scored. Also the blanket defence was well and truly found out in the hammering of Tyrone in the AI semi-final this year.
The abomination that was Donegal football is on it's last legs.
Great post but Tyrone must bear some of the blame for the dirge spewed forth by both teams and others.
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
Quote from: stew on October 19, 2017, 02:15:03 PM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on October 19, 2017, 02:06:53 PM
I think Manus is too focused on the game in Donegal. In the two Dublin semi-finals last weekend there was a total of eight goals and fifty two points scored. Also the blanket defence was well and truly found out in the hammering of Tyrone in the AI semi-final this year.
The abomination that was Donegal football is on it's last legs.
Great post but Tyrone must bear some of the blame for the dirge spewed forth by both teams and others.
"Slightly refined"? Are you serious?? McGuinness brought it to the extreme. Every man back, camped inside 45m line. Tyrone never did that in fairness. McGuinness did it, and the reason he walked after 3 years is because he had no other ideas apart from the extreme form of the blanket. His own county now are bottom of the pile as a result.
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
It's all about skill now (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmfZv6srCK4).
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.
* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given
If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.
Quote from: ck on October 19, 2017, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.
* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given
If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.
Whatever about rule changes I certainly don't think the 'minimum of 4 players in the attacking half' will work in practice. I do a good bit of coaching with young kids, and we play in these blitzes where there's a similar rule to that. It's obviously not designed to counter negative play, but rather to try stop a strong young lad running all over the field and dominating everything.
However what it does show, and what would be worse at adult level, is that you can't strictly enforce a rule like that. Imagine the scenario. A ball is cleared out the field by the defending team, however it's not going to make halfway. The 'forward' has to stand on the halfway line waving at the ball to reach him like a child calling a bold dog. The lad marking him, unencumbered by any such rule, drives forward into the opposition half, picks up the ball and launches an attack.
Or likewise a defender wins a ball and starts to launch a counter attack. He's bombing forward and his marker is chasing hard and tackling. When they reach halfway, what happens? The marker is pulled back on his leash like the Bulldog in Tom and Jerry?
In a free flowing game like gaelic football, it's very difficult to enforce a rule whereby a man has to stop pursuing a ball until it reaches his zone. Especially when others in the same zone can go ahead and do what they like.
Imagine the frustration of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA)
I think the other two suggested rule changes could work. Defences would try to adjust in some way to stop the inside the 21 mark but that might generate more space elsewhere. It would be interesting to see how it would work out.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 19, 2017, 03:39:45 PM
Quote from: ck on October 19, 2017, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.
* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given
If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.
Whatever about rule changes I certainly don't think the 'minimum of 4 players in the attacking half' will work in practice. I do a good bit of coaching with young kids, and we play in these blitzes where there's a similar rule to that. It's obviously not designed to counter negative play, but rather to try stop a strong young lad running all over the field and dominating everything.
However what it does show, and what would be worse at adult level, is that you can't strictly enforce a rule like that. Imagine the scenario. A ball is cleared out the field by the defending team, however it's not going to make halfway. The 'forward' has to stand on the halfway line waving at the ball to reach him like a child calling a bold dog. The lad marking him, unencumbered by any such rule, drives forward into the opposition half, picks up the ball and launches an attack.
Or likewise a defender wins a ball and starts to launch a counter attack. He's bombing forward and his marker is chasing hard and tackling. When they reach halfway, what happens? The marker is pulled back on his leash like the Bulldog in Tom and Jerry?
In a free flowing game like gaelic football, it's very difficult to enforce a rule whereby a man has to stop pursuing a ball until it reaches his zone. Especially when others in the same zone can go ahead and do what they like.
Imagine the frustration of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA)
I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of the rule as I think it's overly complicated tbh. However, the first problem you mention is easily solved by keeping 5 forwards in the opposition half. The second would be countered by imposing a similar requirement on the defenders - have to keep 4 back.
Like I said though, too difficult to police in practice imo
I don't think we need rule changes. ck said we can't wait for managers to throw off the shackles but I think we can. Donegal took a defensive concept to its extreme and were reasonably successful as players couldn't change their spots however, after a few years teams copped on and they will now all adopt a patient probing counter tactic to a massed defence. This will render the blanket pretty ineffective and managers will need to consider something else.
I think minor rule changes might help but the way forward for any decent team is to play the game the way Mayo and Dublin do.
Quote from: Zulu on October 19, 2017, 04:05:33 PM
I don't think we need rule changes. ck said we can't wait for managers to throw off the shackles but I think we can. Donegal took a defensive concept to its extreme and were reasonably successful as players couldn't change their spots however, after a few years teams copped on and they will now all adopt a patient probing counter tactic to a massed defence. This will render the blanket pretty ineffective and managers will need to consider something else.
I think minor rule changes might help but the way forward for any decent team is to play the game the way Mayo and Dublin do.
I have to agree. The closing rounds of the Mayo championships from junior to senior grades have had high scoring entertaining games. Last night's senior semi-final replay between Garrymore and Castlebar drew a huge crowd of neutrals. Given that Garrymore have played with a sweeper system you might have expected a dull game but no so. Great entertainment.
Quote from: Hardy on October 19, 2017, 03:30:45 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
It's all about skill now (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmfZv6srCK4).
Does anybody do those types of drills anymore?
I use something similar for warmups I have to say. It's done quicker than that mind you, and we transition into a kicking version as well. I think most of the 'drill's now are actually more like games, certainly mine are.
Quote from: johnneycool on October 19, 2017, 04:20:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on October 19, 2017, 03:30:45 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
It's all about skill now (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmfZv6srCK4).
Does anybody do those types of drills anymore?
Jesus, not sure what they are trying to do there. I do most of my warm ups in grids so basically the players are running about in whatever direction they want performing whatever skills are assigned with short high intensity periods and/or players to put on partial pressure.
Any drills I do now are generally just for a few minutes between games and even then, only for younger kids who need to do some straight line skill development.
Donegal in 2012 scored on average 17 points per game. Their All Ireland series matches against Cork,Kerry,Mayo were all good quality and enjoyable contests for the majority of the neutral viewers. In their 2014 All Ireland semi final shock win against Dublin they scored 3-14 and conceded 0-17. I'm not sure why a Donegal final last Sunday that ended 7-4 is comparable to what Donegal seniors under McGuinness at their peak did.
In this years All Ireland semi final Tyrone not having a cut,getting in Dublin faces was more their downfall than their defensive system getting found out. Tyrone will learn from that but i'd question if they good enough to learn as much as Donegal did from 2011
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.
It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 05:17:21 PM
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.
It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.
Yeah, because with fewer players they'd have to go man for man, just like soccer - not. Fewer players might be a good idea especially at senior level but it is extremely unlikely to bring back man for man marking.
The poor defensive teams still go man to man and that explains why few of them if any are unable to make progress.
Quote from: lenny on October 19, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 05:17:21 PM
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.
It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.
Yeah, because with fewer players they'd have to go man for man, just like soccer - not. Fewer players might be a good idea especially at senior level but it is extremely unlikely to bring back man for man marking.
Well if there's more space meaning a rise in tricky skilful playes, they'll need to be marked tightly. With more space they could run riot.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 06:12:40 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 19, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 05:17:21 PM
Longer kickouts, limit fistpasses, can't kick backwards, so many players in opposition half etc... So many rules. I think only one rule would probably sort out all or most ills - less players.
It would be almost like the AI Sevens. More space, less or no blanket, longer kicking, skillful players would thrive, man to man would return etc.
Yeah, because with fewer players they'd have to go man for man, just like soccer - not. Fewer players might be a good idea especially at senior level but it is extremely unlikely to bring back man for man marking.
Well if there's more space meaning a rise in tricky skilful playes, they'll need to be marked tightly. With more space they could run riot.
My point was if it's reduced to 13 a side a lot of teams will still get 12 players behind the ball and leave one up front. With less players there will be even more of a need to get players back to crowd out the space and not allow easy scores from inside the scoring zone.
I'm sick of telling people this, but I'll do it one more time.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on fitness, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on pace, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would mean two more players consigned to the sub's bench, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Think it out folks.
I played 11 a side at minor level and that's 25yrs ago, serious fitness needed, forwards were on fire, defenders struggled with all the space. All games were great attacking football, years later, 2001 on it had moved to 13 a side in Derry B for teams who couldn't field 15, No.6 and N0.11 of both teams contested the throw up, again the games were all good open games. cutting to 13 a side to see where it will go is a def option. there be no big drop out rate, games at that number were played in Derry at underage level for many years
Gaelic football with15 now is a slowed down version of 7s football the last 20 years. Reducing numbers won't work. First coach to be brave enough to put 14 on 14 with good players will clean up.
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2017, 11:06:02 PM
Gaelic football with15 now is a slowed down version of 7s football the last 20 years. Reducing numbers won't work. First coach to be brave enough to put 14 on 14 with good players will clean up.
what?
like most underage teams do?
Quote from: lenny on October 19, 2017, 02:13:43 PM
Quote from: mouview on October 19, 2017, 01:15:47 PM
Couldn't we just send a Terminator back in time to take out Jim McGuinness?
Mcguinness only slightly refined what harte had brought in with 13 or 14 players back in defence. I blame harte 100% for the rotten and unwatchable football that is played nowadays.
Talking much rubbish I see.
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
When will people realise the problem with football is not defensive systems but the widening gulf in class between teams?
The Donegal final looked to be pretty dire but go back 10 or 15 years ago and you would probably see some finals ending in similar scorelines. In 2006 for example in the most arrogant GAA county of the lot, Feale Rangers beat South Kerry by 1-04 to 0-06, sounds a classic doesn't it? The exact same scoreline also occurred between Dr Crokes and An Gaeltacht in 2000, what does that say for things?
Generally the club game doesn't have such a problem as there is not a wide gulf in place. Defensive football would be played by most clubs in Tyrone but that hasn't stopped there being a very exciting and entertaining club Championship this year, the final by all accounts was a bit of a disappointment but up until then it was very good.
Over the past few years the U21 Championship has been the best in the business for entertainment, it has thrown up a few great games. Some teams have approached those games very defensively and others not so much but it hasn't affected the quality and excitement.
I'm sick to my teeth hearing idiots lecture on what style of football teams should employ, Loads of counties would rather play open attacking football but it's competitive football and the gap between the haves and have nots is widening in such that a lot of counties feel their best hope of staying competitive is by playing a defensive system which can keep them in a contest longer and so be it.
I'd rather watch a dour tight game than a farce of a match where one side strolls it in a non-contest.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2017, 07:02:06 PM
I'm sick of telling people this, but I'll do it one more time.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on fitness, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on pace, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would mean two more players consigned to the sub's bench, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Think it out folks.
How does soccer cope with the pressure of 11 a side! The heroes!
Reducing it to 13 v 13 would be a significant improvement when it comes to opening up the game without question, but it's one of the more nuclear options. It's a seismic change, which means some will be afraid of it and try to irrationally argue against it because they're used to the status quo. Some of these arguments against it are frankly laughable.
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 01:35:20 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2017, 07:02:06 PM
I'm sick of telling people this, but I'll do it one more time.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on fitness, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on pace, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would mean two more players consigned to the sub's bench, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Think it out folks.
How does soccer cope with the pressure of 11 a side! The heroes!
Reducing it to 13 v 13 would be a significant improvement when it comes to opening up the game without question, but it's one of the more nuclear options. It's a seismic change, which means some will be afraid of it and try to irrationally argue against it because they're used to the status quo. Some of these arguments against it are frankly laughable.
Lol, I do wonder at you. Wembley's pitch Is 57% the size of Croke Park.
Soccer is played in a considerably more congested space.
As for "frankly laughable", your response here is another clear indication that you put little or no thought into generating your opinions.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 19, 2017, 07:02:06 PM
I'm sick of telling people this, but I'll do it one more time.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on fitness, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would put an even greater emphasis again on pace, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Reducing teams to 13 a side would mean two more players consigned to the sub's bench, which will only increase dropout rates among players at all levels.
Think it out folks.
Spot on.
Reducing the no of players is what idiots suggest because they don't even understand the problem in the first place.
The game would be reduced to something like the rugby 7s where lads pick up the ball and run for goal the whole time, it would be akin to an under 12 game.
Defensive football is not the problem, it's a natural reaction to a problem - a widening gulf between the big teams and the little teams.
The prospect of changing rules of the the way the game is played because they don't like the way certain teams play is risible.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
But the inverse of this is that the current Dublin and Mayo teams would absolutely destroy Dublin and Mayo from the noughties. And they both would have been in the top 4-5 teams in the noughties.
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 19, 2017, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 19, 2017, 03:39:45 PM
Quote from: ck on October 19, 2017, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on October 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 19, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
I do think that if there was a Nuremberg type-trial on the Modern Ills of Gaelic Football then in the dock would certainly be Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
However, before we hang and draw them, may I remind ye some of the football played in the 70s and 80s from my memory was God awful.
Catch, fumble, pick off the ground, root it as far as you can, hit your opponent a belt.....
The difference is fitness and perepation is on an entirely different level at IC now. If these teams wanted to play football it would be far better as a spectacle than the 70s.
thats what the auld lads miss . every ball was a contest and best man won the ball. it was not so much about skill as brawn and pure determination.
i think a lot of the current issue are ariding out of soccer counties like donegal where posssesion is king . you can see the same thing in rugby where iits almost an offence to turn over the ball.
6 new rules this year to stop it happening
Would agree in that a few rule changes could help greatly. I think the following rules would assist the game.
* No turning back after you cross the half way line ie: Not allowed to bring possession back into own half
* Minimum of 4 players to play in attacking half at all times
* When ball kicked in from outside 45 and caught inside 21 a mark is given
If we want the game to improve we have to stop expecting coaches and managers to "throw off the shackles" and "go for it" (as the Sunday game lads would put it) and instead give them an incentive to "go for it". Rule changes are the only answer.
Whatever about rule changes I certainly don't think the 'minimum of 4 players in the attacking half' will work in practice. I do a good bit of coaching with young kids, and we play in these blitzes where there's a similar rule to that. It's obviously not designed to counter negative play, but rather to try stop a strong young lad running all over the field and dominating everything.
However what it does show, and what would be worse at adult level, is that you can't strictly enforce a rule like that. Imagine the scenario. A ball is cleared out the field by the defending team, however it's not going to make halfway. The 'forward' has to stand on the halfway line waving at the ball to reach him like a child calling a bold dog. The lad marking him, unencumbered by any such rule, drives forward into the opposition half, picks up the ball and launches an attack.
Or likewise a defender wins a ball and starts to launch a counter attack. He's bombing forward and his marker is chasing hard and tackling. When they reach halfway, what happens? The marker is pulled back on his leash like the Bulldog in Tom and Jerry?
In a free flowing game like gaelic football, it's very difficult to enforce a rule whereby a man has to stop pursuing a ball until it reaches his zone. Especially when others in the same zone can go ahead and do what they like.
Imagine the frustration of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA)
I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of the rule as I think it's overly complicated tbh. However, the first problem you mention is easily solved by keeping 5 forwards in the opposition half. The second would be countered by imposing a similar requirement on the defenders - have to keep 4 back.
Like I said though, too difficult to police in practice imo
How does that solve the problem of forwards not being able to go back to collect a clearance or a defender having to stop their attacking run?
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
Because the game has changed, how well would guys like Dara O'Cinneide or Kevin Hughes cope with the pace of the modern day game? There are as good as footballers out there as there was 10 years ago but the athleticism and fitness has gone up a few levels since then and if you're not as genetically gifted in that manner it would be tough to make it in the modern game.
There were plenty of small, skillful slight forwards on the county scene 10-15 years ago - they're ten a penny with the big teams now and it is not counties getting more risk adverse, its counties adjusting to the reality of the modern game. I don't like the way the game is now compared to 10-15 years ago and it's nothing to do with the style of football. Back then you had sides like Laois and Westmeath winning provincials, Sligo, Fermanagh and Wexford going on extended runs. There was a belief most counties could go out there and compete with the top counties. It's now a case of 5-6 counties believing they can make an impact at the latter end of the season and everyone else just making up the numbers.
As a matter of preference I'd rather watach a 0-9 to 0-8 game where the opponents were really made work for their scores than a 4-18 to 2-14 game where teams just run down the centre at will and get easy scores, but maybe that's just me.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 20, 2017, 07:36:47 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
But the inverse of this is that the current Dublin and Mayo teams would absolutely destroy Dublin and Mayo from the noughties. And they both would have been in the top 4-5 teams in the noughties.
Not sure would Dublin have been regarded as top 4 or 5 team in 00s they received a few trimmings back then didn't reach any All Ireland final, could count on one hand how many semi finals they reached while the likes of Westmeath,Laois and Kildare won Leinster titles. They "arrived" as a new and improved Dublin outfit in 2011.
Mayo reached two All Ireland finals in the 00s but hammered in both. Outside of those 04,06 finals where they struggled past Laois,Fermanagh to get there it was a lot of early championship exits to likes of Westmeath,Derry,Fermanagh,Meath. Again debatable if Mayo were top 4-5 team back then.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on October 20, 2017, 07:45:03 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
Because the game has changed, how well would guys like Dara O'Cinneide or Kevin Hughes cope with the pace of the modern day game? There are as good as footballers out there as there was 10 years ago but the athleticism and fitness has gone up a few levels since then and if you're not as genetically gifted in that manner it would be tough to make it in the modern game.
There were plenty of small, skillful slight forwards on the county scene 10-15 years ago - they're ten a penny with the big teams now and it is not counties getting more risk adverse, its counties adjusting to the reality of the modern game. I don't like the way the game is now compared to 10-15 years ago and it's nothing to do with the style of football. Back then you had sides like Laois and Westmeath winning provincials, Sligo, Fermanagh and Wexford going on extended runs. There was a belief most counties could go out there and compete with the top counties. It's now a case of 5-6 counties believing they can make an impact at the latter end of the season and everyone else just making up the numbers.
As a matter of preference I'd rather watach a 0-9 to 0-8 game where the opponents were really made work for their scores than a 4-18 to 2-14 game where teams just run down the centre at will and get easy scores, but maybe that's just me.
Are you suggesting the required for "modern football" is to have mostly 6 footers and pacy players? Mayo have pushed Dublin all the way the last few years but a good number of their players are under 6ft and wouldn't be regarded as overly pacy either.
On your final point i too would prefer to see a matches where sides has to work for their scores but i think many on here are not fans of the art of defending.
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact. an opinion
+1
Putting a defensive system in place is one thing. It's completely worthless if your players don't have the intelligence, athleticism and most of all, skill levels and decision making ability to be able to transition to attack quickly and efficiently. I think where Dublin and to be fair, Mayo, stand apart from the others at the moment is their skill levels and attacking play is miles ahead of other counties. Tyrone have a bit to go attack wise. Kerry are a good attacking side but defensively were not at the races this year.
You can be a good attacking team even with a strong defensive system.
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 20, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Gaelic football is being played to a superior level now than it has ever been.
The great matches we've seen this decade are the greatest matches of all time.
This won't fit the narrative, but it's a fact.
Its a opinion. My opinion is football played today especially in the latter stages of the championship is more low risk than ever before. Another opinion is Kerry,Tyrone who are two of the current top 4 teams collectively and individually wouldn't be a patch of 00s kerry,Tyrone teams and how good would those teams have been if they were exposed to the high range training and expertise that Dublin seniors are currently getting.
What's "low risk" football?
Not kicking possession away for the sake of it?
Defences in this decade have been more organised and better than ever before, yet we're seeing higher average scores being posted now than ever before.
That's pretty clear proof of a higher standard.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final were roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'd love to be able to agree with you, but the omens suggest otherwise.
First and foremost, winning is everything. That's the ethos that pervades the sport today and that isn't going to change any time soon. Dublin and Mayo fans will cheerfully tell you that they'd be happy with a 0-1 t0 0-0 win after three replays and a double dose of extra time, as long as they won.
Dublin and Mayo are out in front because their players are incredibly determined and prepared to put their normal lives on hold in just about every conceivable way, in order to come out on top.
No other side in the land, Mayo included, can ever hope to match Dublin's resources so for the vast majority, there is no incentive to put in the time and effort needed to compete at the highest level.
What happens then is that teams who know full well that they won't be in the final shakeup will try to keep possession at all costs so as to prevent their opponents from scoring and depend on breakaways to to try and score themselves. If that means parking 10 or more men inside their half of the field for most of the game, then that's what they will do.
Fans can't have it both ways; it's all right talking about open, attacking play when you have teams that are terrified of being walloped out of sight.
Tyrone (who else?) are a perfect example of this.
If Mickey had the likes of Mugsy and Peter Canavan, he'd be very happy to change Tyrone's style of play and that's for sure.
The reality is that very few teams can have realistic expectations of winning a provincial, never mind getting near Croke Park in any year. Keeping the margins they lose by down to respectable levels is the priority.
The biggest problem is that counties and clubs to a greater extent are paying a fortune to coaches/trainers/managers who can get teams fit etc but haven't an original thought when it comes to devising tactics, either attacking or defensive for their teams. I don't blame McGuinness for any of this. He devised a system suited to the team he had. It won't work in general.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
I'm talking about the likes of Tony Scullion who was able to hold his own one on one. There's no defenders out there like that now, well if there are we wouldn't know.
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
I'd blame McGuinness more than Harte, he got forwards working hard but it was McGuinness who got them all turning around ignoring the play to fill predetermined defensive positions.
The tactic is here to stay but any team with ambition to challenge the top teams must abandon it as their main style of play. I disagree with Lar, if teams want to win they must go more attacking and conventional. Kerry and Mayo could both have beaten Dublin in the last few years and they went for it in a largely conventional manner. Kildare, beaten by Armagh who were in turn hammered by Tyrone, could have been level with 15 minutes left by going toe to toe with Dublin whereas Tyrone with a 'sophisticated' defensive system were beaten with 15 minutes gone. Sean Cavanagh, despite being hammered, claimed Mayo needed to keep it tight and defensive as they couldn't afford to fall behind, well guess what? they conceded a goal in the first few minutes and then went on to kick Dublin around CP by playing football.
If the top teams think they can only beat Dublin or other top teams by keeping it tight then they aren't watching much football.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:23:23 PM
I'd blame McGuinness more than Harte, he got forwards working hard but it was McGuinness who got them all turning around ignoring the play to fill predetermined defensive positions.
The tactic is here to stay but any team with ambition to challenge the top teams must abandon it as their main style of play. I disagree with Lar, if teams want to win they must go more attacking and conventional. Kerry and Mayo could both have beaten Dublin in the last few years and they went for it in a largely conventional manner. Kildare, beaten by Armagh who were in turn hammered by Tyrone, could have been level with 15 minutes left by going toe to toe with Dublin whereas Tyrone with a 'sophisticated' defensive system were beaten with 15 minutes gone. Sean Cavanagh, despite being hammered, claimed Mayo needed to keep it tight and defensive as they couldn't afford to fall behind, well guess what? they conceded a goal in the first few minutes and then went on to kick Dublin around CP by playing football.
If the top teams think they can only beat Dublin or other top teams by keeping it tight then they aren't watching much football.
Spot on. The seminal moment for me was when I watched them against Dublin I think, and literally from the throw in three or 4 lads went sprinting from the lined out forwards positions back to the 'zones' they were manning. I think Donegal actually even won the throw in.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
Both teams played with dedicated sweepers and generally had 12-13 behind the ball when defending. There was little in the way of 1v1 except in cases where there was a defensive fúck-up.
Strange match to bring up.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
Chris Barrett gave an exhibition of individual defending, especially in the second half - well worth showing a few of his highlights to any juvenile team of how to execute a great tackle in a few different situations.
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
Both teams played with dedicated sweepers and generally had 12-13 behind the ball when defending. There was little in the way of 1v1 except in cases where there was a defensive fúck-up.
Strange match to bring up.
Will you go away out of that. There isn't any team which defends strictly with 6 players and haven't in 40 years as even in the 70's half forwards and midfielders could/would be back tracking their men or following the ball. So we aren't talking about that we are talking about a game where most defenders had a guy to pick up, both teams had forwards close to goal and many players defended against their man in one on one situations. Barrett was outstanding but he wasn't the only one who had to do it. All teams now attack and defend more as units and teams will drop back players to provide extra cover to their full back line but Dublin and Mayo play modern conventional football while Tyrone and Donegal (among others) play defunct defensive football. Serious teams need to mirror Mayo more, not Donegal.
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.
Another falsehood. Why don't you log in as your alter ego?
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
Paul Galvin wasn't too impressed with some of Mayos defending
Quote
Many people were frustrated with Mayo's Cillian O'Connor and lauded Chris Barrett. O'Connor kicked three crucial points from play. Barrett directly conceded three crucial points from play to Dean Rock. He also lost Rock for Diarmuid Connolly's point, and fouled Connolly for the winning free. He made a few turnovers — one from Con O'Callaghan who was on the ground seconds earlier with cramp — and he's in the running for man of the match.
The truth of the game tells a different story. Rock was man of the match, easily, yet his man is nominated? Something doesn't add up there.
The truth is it's very difficult to win All-Irelands playing an all-out running game. It leads to headless football. Take Connolly and the amount of time and space he was afforded on the ball. He jogged around for 40 minutes, turning here for a look and there for a pass like a kid afforded the chance to kick about on an empty Croke Park. His quality ultimately punished Mayo but they invited it on, passing the buck defensively in too many cases.
For all their effort no one marked or defended. Rock kicked two and fisted one point unchallenged. Eoghan O'Gara kicked a point in the first half with so much time he could have lit a cigarette. James McCarthy got away from Aidan O'Shea twice and had a good long look at goal to see where he would plant his score.
Mayo's game plan made no sense. Backs attacking, forwards defending. Bar David Clarke, Aidan O'Shea and Andy Moran I couldn't make out who was playing where. For one Rock score the nearest player to him was Cillian O'Connor on his own endline. That in itself told the tale of two free-kickers.
O'Connor spent an inordinate amount of time and energy deep in his own half to the detriment of his free-taking ability. Rock worked hard within an ordered system. O'Connor worked hard within a disordered system. If O'Connor's man went upfield he knew he had to go all the way with him or concede a score. Rock didn't have that worry. He tackled as far as the 45 and no further. His team covered him from there.
Mayo's problem was more fundamental: over-committing to a running game, attacking with 10 and 12 players, many of them backs, while under-committing to defence and leaving themselves exposed. With the amount of financial brains in the group it's no surprise Dublin knew the maths.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2017, 06:09:06 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
Paul Galvin wasn't too impressed with some of Mayos defending
Quote
Many people were frustrated with Mayo's Cillian O'Connor and lauded Chris Barrett. O'Connor kicked three crucial points from play. Barrett directly conceded three crucial points from play to Dean Rock. He also lost Rock for Diarmuid Connolly's point, and fouled Connolly for the winning free. He made a few turnovers — one from Con O'Callaghan who was on the ground seconds earlier with cramp — and he's in the running for man of the match.
The truth of the game tells a different story. Rock was man of the match, easily, yet his man is nominated? Something doesn't add up there.
The truth is it's very difficult to win All-Irelands playing an all-out running game. It leads to headless football. Take Connolly and the amount of time and space he was afforded on the ball. He jogged around for 40 minutes, turning here for a look and there for a pass like a kid afforded the chance to kick about on an empty Croke Park. His quality ultimately punished Mayo but they invited it on, passing the buck defensively in too many cases.
For all their effort no one marked or defended. Rock kicked two and fisted one point unchallenged. Eoghan O'Gara kicked a point in the first half with so much time he could have lit a cigarette. James McCarthy got away from Aidan O'Shea twice and had a good long look at goal to see where he would plant his score.
Mayo's game plan made no sense. Backs attacking, forwards defending. Bar David Clarke, Aidan O'Shea and Andy Moran I couldn't make out who was playing where. For one Rock score the nearest player to him was Cillian O'Connor on his own endline. That in itself told the tale of two free-kickers.
O'Connor spent an inordinate amount of time and energy deep in his own half to the detriment of his free-taking ability. Rock worked hard within an ordered system. O'Connor worked hard within a disordered system. If O'Connor's man went upfield he knew he had to go all the way with him or concede a score. Rock didn't have that worry. He tackled as far as the 45 and no further. His team covered him from there.
Mayo's problem was more fundamental: over-committing to a running game, attacking with 10 and 12 players, many of them backs, while under-committing to defence and leaving themselves exposed. With the amount of financial brains in the group it's no surprise Dublin knew the maths.
Well unless you're suggesting Galvin's opinion can't be challenged I presume you'll accept that it's only an opinion. But let's go through his points you've highlighted -
I doubt many would agree Connolly jogged around Croke Park like it was empty but many lads have a bit of space in the half forward line and the second half of most games open up a bit, especially one of that intensity. How much time did Kilkenny have against Tyrone?
I was at the match and it's nonsense to say nobody marked. He lists scores where lads had time to shoot but that's true of every game, when scores come they are often when lads have a bit of time. Is Paul suggesting a guy should never have anytime when shooting at the posts?
Mayo set up conventionally (in modern terms) and conceded 1-17 but scored 1-16 and were the width of a post from being in front with a few minutes left. So what exactly was wrong with the way they played?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 06:23:14 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.
I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 06:31:58 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 06:23:14 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.
I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.
Are you watching a different Kerry side to the rest of us?
Whatever case you can make for Mayo trying to play positively, suggesting Kerry under Fitzmaurice do exposes how little you seem to have looked into this and that you are instead relying on old stereotypes to support your point.
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 06:35:31 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 06:31:58 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 06:23:14 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 04:25:48 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 20, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.
Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.
There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.
I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.
Are you watching a different Kerry side to the rest of us?
Whatever case you can make for Mayo trying to play positively, suggesting Kerry under Fitzmaurice do exposes how little you seem to have looked into this and that you are instead relying on old stereotypes to support your point.
Yeah that must be it. Kerry went at Dublin in national league final and at Mayo in semi final, ok, in replay they played a sweeper but couldn't do it so perhaps you could enlighten us on how they play a defensive system?
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 06:28:12 PM
Well unless you're suggesting Galvin's opinion can't be challenged I presume you'll accept that it's only an opinion. But let's go through his points you've highlighted -
I doubt many would agree Connolly jogged around Croke Park like it was empty but many lads have a bit of space in the half forward line and the second half of most games open up a bit, especially one of that intensity. How much time did Kilkenny have against Tyrone?
I was at the match and it's nonsense to say nobody marked. He lists scores where lads had time to shoot but that's true of every game, when scores come they are often when lads have a bit of time. Is Paul suggesting a guy should never have anytime when shooting at the posts?
Mayo set up conventionally (in modern terms) and conceded 1-17 but scored 1-16 and were the width of a post from being in front with a few minutes left. So what exactly was wrong with the way they played?
Wouldn't be like you if you didn't challenge a opinion and at least you didn't call all of that opinion rubbish or nonsense like you tend to do with any opinions you don't agree with on here.
I'll try to answer your question marks. Kilkenny was marked out of All Ireland final by probably the best man marker in the game.
I think Paul is suggesting a guy should never have as much time and room on the ball to shoot at the posts in All Ireland final.
What exactly was wrong with the way they played?? well Mayo lost when they were arguably the better team on the day and it can be suggested Mayo with better overall defending Dublin wouldn't have got close to scoring 1-17.
Some views are nonsense others are not, I don't call them all nonsense.
So you think a player should never have a bit of time in an All Ireland final? I'd challenge you to watch every All Ireland and come back to me with the years where no scores were unpressurised. I doubt there was any but maybe I'm wrong.
You didn't answer my question about Kilkenny. How much time did he have against a defensive team like Tyrone? According to Paul there was no marking in the All Ireland but you're telling us Kilkenny was man marked. So you disagree with Paul too, you might even say he was talking nonsense?
So Mayo lost due to the way they played, is that your contention? What would better defending be, getting more players behind the ball? But Syferus told us both teams had 12/13 behind the ball, perhaps you mean Mayo should have played double sweepers? Once you tell me how Mayo could have defended better we can then discuss if that would still have allowed them score 1-16, if they could then you're probably right.
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 07:33:07 PM
You didn't answer my question about Kilkenny. How much time did he have against a defensive team like Tyrone? According to Paul there was no marking in the All Ireland but you're telling us Kilkenny was man marked. So you disagree with Paul too, you might even say he was talking nonsense?
No marking on a lot of the scores Dublin got was the point Paul made i think. Kilkenny wasn't man marked against Tyrone he was given loads of time on the ball. Having numbers back is no use if you don't get in the faces of the opposition and give loads time and room to shoot as Dublin got v Tyrone.
Again, unless you designate defenders to mark one guy at the expense of many other elements of the game then forwards will always get time and space at some points in the game. Mayo clearly had man markers other than Keegan but Keegan had a very specific role and he often focused only on Kilkenny, the other man markers hadn't that strict limpet-like role.
So if you agree with Paul that there was little defending, I don't, please point out what they could have done better and how this wouldn't have resulted in less forward threat. While Mayo could have obviously done some things better, it's hard to accept they got their set up wrong. You yourself said they were the better team on the day and lost to a late free so unless teams shouldn't do anything wrong then I don't see how anyone could say Mayo should have done much different.
In the end of the day, it was an equal hugely intense battle but Mayo made a few crucial mistakes (or had easy misses) and that was probably the difference.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on October 20, 2017, 05:35:23 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.
Another falsehood. Why don't you log in as your alter ego?
I've said it before I don't have an alter ego but you're obviously too thick to take that in. I remember everyone being taken aback by the way tyrone swarmed round the kerry players in 03. That was new especially the number of players who quickly got round the man in possession. That was brought in by harte and was and still is horrible to look at. Look at any all ireland finals before that and you won't see that kind of thing happening. He also brought more men back into defence than any manager had previously. It was successful and led to other managers copying. Mcguinness took it a stage further but harte was the instigator. Tyrone people were happy enough because they were winning but they weren't making many friends along the way. When I go on holiday down south and get chatting to football people down there there's very few who have a good word to say about tyrone in the noughties.
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on October 20, 2017, 05:35:23 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.
Another falsehood. Why don't you log in as your alter ego?
I've said it before I don't have an alter ego but you're obviously too thick to take that in. I remember everyone being taken aback by the way tyrone swarmed round the kerry players in 03. That was new especially the number of players who quickly got round the man in possession. That was brought in by harte and was and still is horrible to look at. Look at any all ireland finals before that and you won't see that kind of thing happening. He also brought more men back into defence than any manager had previously. It was successful and led to other managers copying. Mcguinness took it a stage further but harte was the instigator. Tyrone people were happy enough because they were winning but they weren't making many friends along the way. When I go on holiday down south and get chatting to football people down there there's very few who have a good word to say about tyrone in the noughties.
I certainly don't have any good words for Tyrone or Donegal's style of play. Effective? yes to a point. Entertaining? Absolutely not. But then again Mickey Harte admits he doesn't care about entertaining fans.
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 09:48:20 PM
I've said it before I don't have an alter ego but you're obviously too thick to take that in. I remember everyone being taken aback by the way tyrone swarmed round the kerry players in 03. That was new especially the number of players who quickly got round the man in possession. That was brought in by harte and was and still is horrible to look at.
Speak for yourself. I found that an absolutely exhilarating passage of play, one of the most exhilarating 30 seconds I've ever seen on a GAA field.
It was fair, it was hard and it was brilliant in the way it was executed. And it happened high up the pitch, so it wasn't a case of just getting 15 men back behind the ball.
I think we need to differentiate the football Tyrone play now from the football they played in the 00s. In their pomp that Tyrone team played some fantastic attacking football.
The game is evolving out of the darkness of McGuinness. It'll be total football by 2020.
Quote from: ONeill on October 20, 2017, 11:20:01 PM
The game is evolving out of the darkness of McGuinness. It'll be total football by 2020.
Totally Dublin, maybe.
Quote from: ONeill on October 20, 2017, 11:20:01 PM
The game is evolving out of the darkness of McGuinness. It'll be total football by 2020.
Congress 2019 going to abolish the abomination that is the handpass????😆
Tyrone got the biggest shock to the system this year. Sean Cavanagh even said it was physically impossible to be more prepared for Dublin in terms of S&C. So that means - a change in tactics. I can see a more attacking approach in 2017 NFL. I'll refund anyone if that's not the case.
There should be a restriction on amount of consecutive hand passes. They aren't going to abolish it obviously, but cut it down.
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on October 20, 2017, 05:35:23 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 20, 2017, 03:46:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 20, 2017, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 20, 2017, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 20, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.
That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.
I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?
Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?
When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.
It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.
Another falsehood. Why don't you log in as your alter ego?
I've said it before I don't have an alter ego but you're obviously too thick to take that in. I remember everyone being taken aback by the way tyrone swarmed round the kerry players in 03. That was new especially the number of players who quickly got round the man in possession. That was brought in by harte and was and still is horrible to look at. Look at any all ireland finals before that and you won't see that kind of thing happening. He also brought more men back into defence than any manager had previously. It was successful and led to other managers copying. Mcguinness took it a stage further but harte was the instigator. Tyrone people were happy enough because they were winning but they weren't making many friends along the way. When I go on holiday down south and get chatting to football people down there there's very few who have a good word to say about tyrone in the noughties.
Again it's a falsehood, fake anecdotes and nonsense is all you have to fuel your bitterness an envy towards all things Tyrone and Mickey Harte.
I think that Tyrone team of Mickey Harte's will go down as one of the greatest of them all. They deserved their All Irelands, they went out and played a great Kerry off the pitch three times in that period, they defeated a great Armagh team in knockout football 2 times in that period, the 05 game with Armagh happens to be the best game I've ever attended in terms of quality of football.
I'm sure when you go on holiday down South they probably think "He's one bitter Derry b**tard".
In any case I'm sure we'll see you clogging up the Tyrone forum with the exact same nonsense you're spouting here under your alter ego.
Quote from: ONeill on October 21, 2017, 12:07:36 AM
Tyrone got the biggest shock to the system this year. Sean Cavanagh even said it was physically impossible to be more prepared for Dublin in terms of S&C. So that means - a change in tactics. I can see a more attacking approach in 2017 NFL. I'll refund anyone if that's not the case.
Too easy to make predictions about the past, tell us what you think will happen in the NFL next year.
Here's where it's all copied from. McGuinness and Harte openly admit their admiration for basketball coaching:
https://m.imgur.com/t/basketball/QCmS4ze (https://m.imgur.com/t/basketball/QCmS4ze)
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 21, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
There should be a restriction on amount of consecutive hand passes. They aren't going to abolish it obviously, but cut it down.
Why bring in a rule that would favour massed defences?
And why make the referee's job even tougher than it already is?
A rule to restrict consecutive handpasses was brought in for the 1994/95 NFL. It was a disaster.
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 21, 2017, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 21, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
There should be a restriction on amount of consecutive hand passes. They aren't going to abolish it obviously, but cut it down.
Why bring in a rule that would favour massed defences?
And why make the referee's job even tougher than it already is?
A rule to restrict consecutive handpasses was brought in for the 1994/95 NFL. It was a disaster.
It would suit massed defences in terms of turning over the ball but it wouldn't suit them in terms of then taking the ball forward. Because all their players are close together massed defences work the ball out with short hand passing. A restriction on hand passes would force teams to keep players further up the pitch as an outlet for a kick pass.
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2017, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 21, 2017, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 21, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
There should be a restriction on amount of consecutive hand passes. They aren't going to abolish it obviously, but cut it down.
Why bring in a rule that would favour massed defences?
And why make the referee's job even tougher than it already is?
A rule to restrict consecutive handpasses was brought in for the 1994/95 NFL. It was a disaster.
It would suit massed defences in terms of turning over the ball but it wouldn't suit them in terms of then taking the ball forward. Because all their players are close together massed defences work the ball out with short hand passing. A restriction on hand passes would force teams to keep players further up the pitch as an outlet for a kick pass.
Here's a goal that was created with four straight handpasses. It was also a brilliantly creative move from one of the most brilliantly creative attacking teams ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCzJcfJ4h-4
Here's a goal that was created with six straight handpasses. It's generally thought of as one of the greatest goals in the history of the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEy9z1Ul_to
These goals, presumably, are the sort of things you and others who want to cut down on the handpass want to see outlawed.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 21, 2017, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2017, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 21, 2017, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: rodney trotter on October 21, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
There should be a restriction on amount of consecutive hand passes. They aren't going to abolish it obviously, but cut it down.
Why bring in a rule that would favour massed defences?
And why make the referee's job even tougher than it already is?
A rule to restrict consecutive handpasses was brought in for the 1994/95 NFL. It was a disaster.
It would suit massed defences in terms of turning over the ball but it wouldn't suit them in terms of then taking the ball forward. Because all their players are close together massed defences work the ball out with short hand passing. A restriction on hand passes would force teams to keep players further up the pitch as an outlet for a kick pass.
Here's a goal that was created with four straight handpasses. It was also a brilliantly creative move from one of the most brilliantly creative attacking teams ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCzJcfJ4h-4
Here's a goal that was created with six straight handpasses. It's generally thought of as one of the greatest goals in the history of the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEy9z1Ul_to
These goals, presumably, are the sort of things you and others who want to cut down on the handpass want to see outlawed.
Just watched the first one. the james mccartan pass was a blatant throw and one of the other passes was questionable. Having said that I'd be doubtful whether restricting hand passes is workable in terms of referees or is even desirable in terms of the overall spectacle. Rule changes need to thought out carefully as there can be unintended consequences.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
And how exactly would it be possible to play Gaelic without hand passing in some cases. It's not soccer where the ball is kept on the ground.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Do you want to rename Rugby FOOTBALL too, even though moving the ball with the foot is the exception, rather than the rule?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on October 21, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Do you want to rename Rugby FOOTBALL too, even though moving the ball with the foot is the exception, rather than the rule?
I want to abolish fcukn Rubby!!!!!
Of course you can play Gaelic FOOTball without handpassing.
Kick the bloody ball out if your bloody hands.
how do you encourage more kick passes?
open up the space
by limiting hand passes teams will just crowd the defensive half knowing teams have to kick the ball into it
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on October 21, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Do you want to rename Rugby FOOTBALL too, even though moving the ball with the foot is the exception, rather than the rule?
I want to abolish fcukn Rubby!!!!!
Of course you can play Gaelic FOOTball without handpassing.
Kick the bloody ball out if your bloody hands.
This is the most moronic argument for a rule change ever.
The game has always involved handpassing, removing it would fundamentally change the sport.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on October 21, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Do you want to rename Rugby FOOTBALL too, even though moving the ball with the foot is the exception, rather than the rule?
I want to abolish fcukn Rubby!!!!!
Of course you can play Gaelic FOOTball without handpassing.
Kick the bloody ball out if your bloody hands.
Aimless kickpasses into men double marked is literally the most depressing aspect of the sport.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on October 21, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Well have no FOOTball till the fcuks throwball is abolished.
Do you want to rename Rugby FOOTBALL too, even though moving the ball with the foot is the exception, rather than the rule?
I want to abolish fcukn Rubby!!!!!
Of course you can play Gaelic FOOTball without handpassing.
Kick the bloody ball out if your bloody hands.
Possession is a key aspect of any ball sport, and to assume that compulsory kicking will solve anything is simply delusional.
Ok let's make it official - ban kicking altogether sure it's only a nuisance getting in the way of Ulster throwball.
Quote from: Syferus on October 21, 2017, 03:15:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on October 21, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 12:04:05 PM
Aimless kickpasses into men double marked is literally the most depressing aspect of the sport.
Why not kick it to the free man then? Or solo it till you draw a defender ( unless you're playing Ros who will let you continue your run till you score a goal).
For want of a better place to post this, I thought this was a good article from Enda McGinley.
http://www.irishnews.com/sport/2017/10/20/news/enda-mcginley-everyone-s-an-athlete-so-let-s-train-some-footballers-1167201/
Because the free man is invariably sitting behind the ball carrier double covering the opposition's FF, Ross.
Kicking the ball anywhere for the sake of it would be stuff u10s do.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 21, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Ok let's make it official - ban kicking altogether sure it's only a nuisance getting in the way of Ulster throwball.
The king of the
non sequiturs, maith thú! :-\
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
Take 4 players off each team. 11 a side. You'll see a totally different game (and no, I don't mean soccer!)
It's the obvious answer.
Never ever post on a gaa forum ever again. Ever.
Quote from: Christmas Lights on October 22, 2017, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 19, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
Take 4 players off each team. 11 a side. You'll see a totally different game (and no, I don't mean soccer!)
It's the obvious answer.
Never ever post on a gaa forum ever again. Ever.
Somebody didn't get any last night :D
Silly article which takes no account of the great high scoring games we have enjoyed all year.
This was a one off & came about because Glenties were not going to alloew Kilcar to give them a trimming as they had done the previous year in the semi final 5-10 to 1-11. From the off Glenties set up with not alone a blanket defence but no interest in commiting any men forward when they had the ball in case they were caught on the break. Kilcar got sucked into this & as a result we got the game we did.
But to say that his one game means football is "dying on its feet" is nonsense. League games involving both teams this year have seen a scoring average of almost 30 points a game which is not too shabby.
Yes, it was a poor final but not indicative of things generally.
But it isn't just one game, that's the point. It might be a bit much to say the game is dying but it's also easy to justify horrible football on the basis of the result mattering. You can beat teams better than your own by means other than getting 15 behind the ball.
Quote from: Zulu on October 24, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
But it isn't just one game, that's the point. It might be a bit much to say the game is dying but it's also easy to justify horrible football on the basis of the result mattering. You can beat teams better than your own by means other than getting 15 behind the ball.
On the whole though are bad games any more common than they ever where?
We have had some fantastic games over the last few years at the later stage of the championship at intercounty level.
In Tyrone club football we regularly have really good games throughout the competition every year (there are plenty of bad ones also, this years final being an example)
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 24, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
In Tyrone club football we regularly have really good games throughout the competition every year (there are plenty of bad ones also, this years final being an example)
Same in Dublin club football. Even the league games in the top 2 divisions without the county stars are generally really good matches, with teams trying to win by playing attacking football.
Castleknock the main exception when it comes to championship. They like their packed defence!
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 24, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 24, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
But it isn't just one game, that's the point. It might be a bit much to say the game is dying but it's also easy to justify horrible football on the basis of the result mattering. You can beat teams better than your own by means other than getting 15 behind the ball.
On the whole though are bad games any more common than they ever where?
We have had some fantastic games over the last few years at the later stage of the championship at intercounty level.
In Tyrone club football we regularly have really good games throughout the competition every year (there are plenty of bad ones also, this years final being an example)
That's true but I think the difference now is that bad games can occur due to how teams are setting out rather than just games being bad, which will always happen. Not all of the poor games we see today are due to massed defences but I think the possession is key, bodies behind the ball, defending a lead mentality is making more games poor spectacles. I was at the Mayo Cork game this year, which turned out to be very good game overall but even though there were plenty of scores in the first half and some good football it lacked the tempo of a really good game. Maybe it's just my personal tastes as I can't watch soccer anymore but a probing pass the parcel type of football doesn't do a lot for me even if it ends with a good score. I prefer things a bit more helter skelter which I think is possible without playing headless football.
Quote from: Zulu on October 24, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
But it isn't just one game, that's the point. It might be a bit much to say the game is dying but it's also easy to justify horrible football on the basis of the result mattering. You can beat teams better than your own by means other than getting 15 behind the ball.
Fair enough Zulu but every team gets 14 or 15 men behind the ball nowadays, Dublin included, that's not the problem. The problem is where teams either can't or won't attack & have a go at winning the game when they have the ball.
My main issue here however is in putting up the headline "Football is dying on it's feet" when commentating on one game. There are countless thousands of games played every week at all levels & many of them are highly entertaining. A silly headline & article to go with it.
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
Quote from: inthrough on October 24, 2017, 05:06:28 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 24, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
But it isn't just one game, that's the point. It might be a bit much to say the game is dying but it's also easy to justify horrible football on the basis of the result mattering. You can beat teams better than your own by means other than getting 15 behind the ball.
Fair enough Zulu but every team gets 14 or 15 men behind the ball nowadays, Dublin included, that's not the problem. The problem is where teams either can't or won't attack & have a go at winning the game when they have the ball.
My main issue here however is in putting up the headline "Football is dying on it's feet" when commentating on one game. There are countless thousands of games played every week at all levels & many of them are highly entertaining. A silly headline & article to go with it.
I agree, the problem is really when teams won't attack but while most teams do have bodies back at times some teams get them all in their own 45 whereas the better teams generally don't. Again, I agree the headline is over the top but I think there is an issue that is worthy of some concern. The game has definitely changed and I think too many coaches are still looking at the game in a 'how not to lose by too much' way rather than how can we win it.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
That's all true Sid but that's kind of what frustrates me about modern football. We have better footballers and better attacking strategies now than ever before but instead of pushing that forward we have retreated into a fearful brand of football that is about surviving a game of football rather than trying to win it. I accept that's a bit of a broad statement and some teams have to just try and survive but the better teams should be able to play with at least 4 forwards up front most of the game and still keep opponents to a beatable score.
Football is still a wonderful game and is evolving but I think the balance between attacking and defending isn't right at the moment.
Quote from: Zulu on October 24, 2017, 05:29:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
That's all true Sid but that's kind of what frustrates me about modern football. We have better footballers and better attacking strategies now than ever before but instead of pushing that forward we have retreated into a fearful brand of football that is about surviving a game of football rather than trying to win it. I accept that's a bit of a broad statement and some teams have to just try and survive but the better teams should be able to play with at least 4 forwards up front most of the game and still keep opponents to a beatable score.
Football is still a wonderful game and is evolving but I think the balance between attacking and defending isn't right at the moment.
It would help calm that fear if one team didn't have millions granted to it to develop players, and raking in millions more from being so huge in the first place.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
You had a much better spread of potential winners 20 years ago. You didn't have a procession.
The four 2017 provincial finals had an average winning margin of 0-9, the four quarterfinals concluded with an average margin of 0-15, and the semi-finals' concluding average was 0-9.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
That Mayo Roscommon game was arguably the worst ever Connacht final with two very average teams involved. Mayo ended up losing to Cork by 20 points. Derry Donegal game was played on a waterlogged pitch. I found the 1993 Leinster final more intriguing than this year final which the media/pundits were very patronizing to Kildare for getting within 9 points of Dublin who didn't get out of 2nd gear.
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
You had a much better spread of potential winners 20 years ago. You didn't have a procession.
The four 2017 provincial finals had an average winning margin of 0-9, the four quarterfinals concluded with an average margin of 0-15, and the semi-finals' concluding average was 0-9.
I was at two of those 1993 provincial finals and believe me, they were shit. Derry and Donegal might have had some excuse given the state of the pitch but the participants in the other two matches had no such excuses.
In terms of competitiveness, the 1990s were a historical aberration, with no true all-time great team on the scene.
From 1974 to 1990 there were at most three potential winners(often less) in each year and the championship was generally a procession until the All-Ireland final, which was often a procession itself.
From around 2000 to 2009 there were generally three potential winners at most.
In 2010 to 2012 there were five potential winners.
This has now declined again to the historical norm of three.
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
In terms of competitiveness, the 1990s were a historical aberration, with no true all-time great team on the scene.
All time greats maybe not but IMO the 90s had
Donegal probably their best ever side built on two U21 All Ireland winning teams
Down the best Down sides since the 60s
Derry,Kildare arguably their best ever sides
Good Meath sides that were hard to beat only their 87,88 sides were probably better.
Galway and Mayo rivalry 95 to 99 was arguably good as it ever was and Tuam,Castlebar was packed for those games
The last five years we have Dublin stocking up on the trophies won and Mayo their biggest challengers doing the opposite. Donegal are in decline,Kerry in transition in the hope their minors will make the step up. Tyrone are along way from quality of their AI winning teams. Meath,Kildare,Down,Galway are unlikely to see All Ireland semi finals anytime soon.
The 2000 All Ireland championship which included a number of replays had 40 games next year the All Ireland championship will have i think 74 games more games equals more money for those at HQ but will it be a case of quantity over quality in the years ahead?
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 24, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on October 24, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Football was much better in Manus's heyday.
Take the provincial finals in 1993, for instance.
Derry 0-8 Donegal 0-6
Dublin 0-11 Kildare 0-7
Mayo 1-5 Roscommon 0-7
Free flowing classics all. And the kicking skills were wonderful, certainly Manus's kick on Johnny McGurk, which saw him get the line, was anyway.
You had a much better spread of potential winners 20 years ago. You didn't have a procession.
The four 2017 provincial finals had an average winning margin of 0-9, the four quarterfinals concluded with an average margin of 0-15, and the semi-finals' concluding average was 0-9.
I was at two of those 1993 provincial finals and believe me, they were shit. Derry and Donegal might have had some excuse given the state of the pitch but the participants in the other two matches had no such excuses.
In terms of competitiveness, the 1990s were a historical aberration, with no true all-time great team on the scene.
From 1974 to 1990 there were at most three potential winners(often less) in each year and the championship was generally a procession until the All-Ireland final, which was often a procession itself.
From around 2000 to 2009 there were generally three potential winners at most.
In 2010 to 2012 there were five potential winners.
This has now declined again to the historical norm of three.
Down had a fabulous team. There was no back door either.
St Vincents 1-8 Ballymun 0-8 in the Dublin senior final tonight. The main talking point was the St Vincents blanket defence that i think only allowed 13 shots on their goal. Ballymun manager complained after that game that they weren't allowed to play and that Vincents did what they had to do.
Let's keep handpassing and blanket defending.
We won't need any stadiums in a few more years as there will be no spectators.
Sid Waddell dropping a few truth bombs in here 8)
Horrible stuff from St Vincents in particular and they will argue that the end justified the means. It was a brutal spectacle for what was effectively the Leinster club final.
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 30, 2017, 08:55:29 PM
St Vincents 1-8 Ballymun 0-8 in the Dublin senior final tonight. The main talking point was the St Vincents blanket defence that i think only allowed 13 shots on their goal. Ballymun manager complained after that game that they weren't allowed to play and that Vincents did what they had to do.
Ulster football for ye, oh, hold on.......
Quote from: Christmas Lights on October 31, 2017, 08:55:42 AM
Sid Waddell dropping a few truth bombs in here 8)
As I generally find out when I discuss this sort of thing in the "real" world, most people actually have poor memories, and the bits that are still coloured in tend to be those that have been recently flavoured by media opinion. Its unusually frustrating to explain to people that Gaelic Football has always had a high percentage of its matches either one-sided or low scoring.
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 30, 2017, 08:55:29 PM
St Vincents 1-8 Ballymun 0-8 in the Dublin senior final tonight. The main talking point was the St Vincents blanket defence that i think only allowed 13 shots on their goal. Ballymun manager complained after that game that they weren't allowed to play and that Vincents did what they had to do.
Poor game in front of a huge crowd. The long season caught up with dub players on the ballymun team, they looked wrecked.
One benefit for Connolly's 3 months off during the summer is he is fresh at this time of the season and he ran the show last night
Quote from: yellowcard on October 31, 2017, 09:12:25 AM
Horrible stuff from St Vincents in particular and they will argue that the end justified the means. It was a brutal spectacle for what was effectively the Leinster club final.
Living abroad so did not see.
I do find myself not tuning into TG 4 on a Sunday, as for the most part, a lot if not most club games are becoming more and more difficult to watch.
Why ?, I am sure there are multiple answers, I will take a shot at one,
Most if not all,(of course there are exceptions) managers of senior clubs are being paid, and to justify this big financial commitment, especially by a lot of clubs who cannot afford it, the manager is then under pressure to produce something tangible.
In a lot of cases, this means winning a few early games in the league to have a chance at winning the league or more importantly to avoid relegation. Throw in having a decent run in the championship and bingo. To his defense, in some cases he may be very well outmatched from a talent point, but growing up playing club football you just went out and played and tried to win. If you won, you went for a few pints and had the crack, if you lost you did likewise, and you went back the next week and tried to win.
Today, it appears the end game justifies the means, problem is "the means" in a lot of cases, is that a lot of club players are programmed like robots in how the act on and off the ball.
What is the end game for Gaelic Football, not sure, but I truly fear the days of spontaneity and freedom of expression and seeing a gifted individual expressing his skills may be disappearing for the greater good of the team, (i.e. the result), and the manager.
Hopefully not too cynical, but this is from someone who up until ten or so years ago, would walk across to the local pitch to watch two dogs fighting (bad analogy maybe), and would always come away having enjoyed some if not a lot of aspects of the game. Not so today, I would be more inclined no to bother going.
Quote from: yellowcard on October 31, 2017, 09:12:25 AM
Horrible stuff from St Vincents in particular and they will argue that the end justified the means. It was a brutal spectacle for what was effectively the Leinster club final.
How are Vincent's to blame?
Ballymun barely rose a gallop for the first half an hour, had a two man forward line which was completely isolated, and were far too slow both in terms of moving the ball and in terms of getting players into attack in support. They made numerous elementary mistakes.
Vincent's played much smarter football, kept players forward, and crucially, always had an out ball. They moved the ball far more fluently and were more than deserving of their win, which should really have been by a bigger margin.
Ballymun had no idea how to handle Connolly. They frequently left him unmarked and had no idea how to handle him roaming around the pitch. You'd have thought having a plan for him would have been uppermost in their minds beforehand, but they had none.
I thought Philly McMahon was supposed to be picking up Connolly? He was badly, badly exposed.
The Dublin final was as good as it gets most of the time. There are expectation that aren't based on anything.
Cracking games are an exception as it is with most sport.
I enjoyed it, and it got me out for a few pints on a Monday :D
I was the only one in the pub watching it and with 5 minutes to go they switched to the Premiership for a costumer.
Thankfully they put it back on for me.
Most Mayo games in championship 2017 were entertaining.
1-08 to 0-08 should never be the expectation in a game that isn't Ulsterball.
To be fair there were quite a few bad wides. Could easily have been 3-12 to 1-11 or that way.
Quote from: Syferus on October 31, 2017, 05:00:27 PM
1-08 to 0-08 should never be the expectation in a game that isn't Ulsterball.
My God Syferus you are a funny man!! Ulsterball!! Fantastic!!
Quote from: inthrough on October 31, 2017, 05:33:34 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 31, 2017, 05:00:27 PM
1-08 to 0-08 should never be the expectation in a game that isn't Ulsterball.
My God Syferus you are a funny man!! Ulsterball!! Fantastic!!
Any trawl through the records of Dublin finals will show that this is not an outlying score. Scores in both club and county games have increased noticeably in recent years despite, or perhaps due to, blanket and zonal defences.
Quote from: dublin7 on October 31, 2017, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 30, 2017, 08:55:29 PM
St Vincents 1-8 Ballymun 0-8 in the Dublin senior final tonight. The main talking point was the St Vincents blanket defence that i think only allowed 13 shots on their goal. Ballymun manager complained after that game that they weren't allowed to play and that Vincents did what they had to do.
Poor game in front of a huge crowd. The long season caught up with dub players on the ballymun team, they looked wrecked.
One benefit for Connolly's 3 months off during the summer is he is fresh at this time of the season and he ran the show last night
You can hardly use tiredness as the excuse for Ballymun. They've had 2 weeks between each of their games since Dublin played the AI final. Ironically Connolly has been playing every week when you include hurling!
Only got to see the 2nd half of that Dublin final last night. I thought after low scoring 1st half things would only improve instead i got to see a half that finished 0-4 each. Ballymun had a good goal chance when they clipped the bar if that had went in it might have been a better and more interesting half of football. Vincents in fairness to them used all of their experience to close out the game but it was mostly a half of poor shooting and passing and Connolly was the biggest culprit for kicking wides and the normally accurate Dean Rock was poor on frees.