I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2015, 01:57:27 PM
I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
No natural forwards.
(steps away and waits for Dinny :) )
Yep, often wondered that. Football mad, wealthy, close to a city but far enough away to keep the rural feel to the place and thriving club scene. A mystery really why they haven't won more.
Sneering south county attitude to the clubs in the suburb towns like Leixlip, Maynooth, Celbridge etc gone now which I believe which will help alot in the future.
Would like to see them do well. Some support when they are going well .
Quote from: AZOffaly on December 17, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2015, 01:57:27 PM
I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
No natural forwards.
(steps away and waits for Dinny :) )
Could they not breed some at Goffs?
Given all the good land and the big houses, why are they no good at hurling? They beat Waterford three times out of six in the League in the 1970's. I know things were falling apart here at that stage, but Offaly only managed to beat us once in four games in that decade. Offaly and Kildare clearly went in opposite directions in the 1980's (Waterford went the same direction as Kildare).
As for football, they're probably not filtee enough.
Quote from: deiseach on December 17, 2015, 02:15:00 PM
Given all the good land and the big houses, why are they no good at hurling? They beat Waterford three times out of six in the League in the 1970's. I know things were falling apart here at that stage, but Offaly only managed to beat us once in four games in that decade. Offaly and Kildare clearly went in opposite directions in the 1980's (Waterford went the same direction as Kildare).
As for football, they're probably not filtee enough.
Not close enough to the hurling blocs I suppose. But the football is a real headscratcher. They have a very bad finals record at all grades.
Too rich, too much interest in horse racing,
Quote from: Canalman on December 17, 2015, 02:13:35 PM
Yep, often wondered that. Football mad, wealthy, close to a city but far enough away to keep the rural feel to the place and thriving club scene. A mystery really why they haven't won more.
Sneering south county attitude to the clubs in the suburb towns like Leixlip, Maynooth, Celbridge etc gone now which I believe which will help alot in the future.
Would like to see them do well. Some support when they are going well .
The club scene in Kildare is shite not one decent team out of the county in years. The problem with Kildare is they are wanna be Dubs and think the are better than they are.
Their menfolk are like feeble old women and their womenfolk are like lecherous old men.
Meath seem to sunk to Kildare's level these days.
Karma for 2010 I suppose.
Quote from: AZOffaly on December 17, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2015, 01:57:27 PM
I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
No natural forwards.
(steps away and waits for Dinny :) )
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/167866/man-smashing-computer-o.gif)
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2015, 05:04:05 PM
Meath seem to sunk to Kildare's level these days.
Karma for 2010 I suppose.
;D
Always had a soft spot for Kildare. At about the age of 6 i believed that Tyrone were the lilywhites and even made a paper hat for myself when I was a cub, in red and white which said Up the lilywhites!! It was 2 years later before Someone had the heart to tell me the lilywhites were Kildare.
Quote from: rrhf on December 17, 2015, 08:51:14 PM
Always had a soft spot for Kildare. At about the age of 6 i believed that Tyrone were the lilywhites and even made a paper hat for myself when I was a cub, in red and white which said Up the lilywhites!! It was 2 years later before Someone had the heart to tell me the lilywhites were Kildare.
Me too regarding the soft spot. I would love to see them winning an all Ireland. I wonder which of Cavan, Ros, Mayo and the Lilies will do it first. 4 counties with great tradition and a huge unmet need for Sam.
Maybe everyone has a soft spot for Kildare because we can always beat them :( Some serious players though. Glen Ryan a legend as is Anthony Rainbow. Among others...though Bill Sex was the first Kildare player to catch my attention....(wonder why???)
too many Dubs have moved out, ala Meath
if you look at most of the successful GAA clubs in Dublin in the last 20 years, a lot of them are backboned by families originally from outside Dublin, in terms of playing, coaching teams and administration. In both hurling and football.
Quote from: 5 Sams on December 17, 2015, 10:46:02 PM
Maybe everyone has a soft spot for Kildare because we can always beat them :( Some serious players though. Glen Ryan a legend as is Anthony Rainbow. Among others...though Bill Sex was the first Kildare player to catch my attention....(wonder why???)
Sex was unreal in the late 80s/early 90s :o
Just in relation to a thriving club scene the problem is that the club scene isn't great as you can see by the lack of Leinster Club success.
In fact if you look at the big town they are simply not tapping into their population. Club teams like Carbury and Johnstownbridge and are from small rural bases and they would take Naas most days. Round Towers from Kildare Town aren't even senior now.
The big two from Newbridge build on their rivalry and drive it all on. There is a population with a lot of young kids who will come on stream if they are brought in.
Towers will be back senior next year.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 18, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
Towers will be back senior next year.
I'm sure they said the same last year. As far as I know their Minor team was in the C, or at best B, grade recently. Kilcock are in Intermediate too with all those new houses built in boom times. Point still stands, when people look at our population, it just isn't being harnessed by the clubs in many cases.
Other counties like Roscommon and Cavan are doing so much more with a lot less.
Quote from: LilySavage on December 18, 2015, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on December 17, 2015, 10:46:02 PM
Maybe everyone has a soft spot for Kildare because we can always beat them :( Some serious players though. Glen Ryan a legend as is Anthony Rainbow. Among others...though Bill Sex was the first Kildare player to catch my attention....(wonder why???)
Sex was unreal in the late 80s/early 90s :o
Especially in the club scene around Athy
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on December 18, 2015, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 18, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
Towers will be back senior next year.
I'm sure they said the same last year. As far as I know their Minor team was in the C, or at best B, grade recently. Kilcock are in Intermediate too with all those new houses built in boom times. Point still stands, when people look at our population, it just isn't being harnessed by the clubs in many cases.
Other counties like Roscommon and Cavan are doing so much more with a lot less.
I know the point you are making and I agree but Towers are a bad example. We won the minor A championship in 2012, beaten by Athy in the A q/f 2013, beaten in the A semi-final in 2014 after giving it a good rattle against that dream Sarsfields team. Played A this year as well. we have also contributed heavily to our successful county minor team over the last 3 years.
Towers have the right manager in place this year. They will win it ;)
I'd agree with a lot of what Captain Scarlet has outlined above. Outside of Newbridge, only Athy, Celbridge and Confey of the suburban clubs are performing up to their potential and the latter two compete at a high level in both codes which probably doesn't help their chances of competing with the Newbridge clubs.
The Naas club lacks the identity that the Newbridge clubs have. They've been out of the running since the Johnny McDonald was on the scene although their recent Féile success suggests they may finally come good in the years ahead. Like Celbridge and Confey though their dual status might hold them back from a football point of view.
Towers and Kilcock as mentioned earlier have fallen away and have gone from competing at the top of the senior championship to struggling to get out of intermediate in a short space of time. Clane have also been in a sharp decline which is poor from a club who used to backbone the county team. Their minor's and Scoil Mhuire's recent successes need to be built upon.
A lot of Kildare's "newer" population are simply not involved in their local communities to anywhere near the same extent as the first wave of migrants who settled in places like Naas, Celbridge and Leixlip in the early 1980s. They would have mostly been from the counties on the southern and western seaboard whereas now the people settling in Kildare are migrating out from the capital. Generally the more recent migrants spend most of their days commuting and as a result of this commuting culture a lot of them have little involvement locally. This leads to a lack of the same local identity that can be found in the older areas of the towns and in the more rural areas of the county. There needs to be a big drive to get the children of this new population involved in the local clubs.
Your last sentence sums it all up DH.
Ye're Clubs should be knocking on every door in these suburban sprawls and let those new people know the GAA club is a Social centre for them.
I suppose the issue for a lot of these clubs is that the local populations have multiplied in only a decade or two. Their clubs have gone from small numbers to trying to cater for thousands in the space of just a few years. Most of these clubs were unprepared and now they don't have the resources or facilities to capitalise on the opportunity that this new population presents. It's a huge contrast with some of the rural clubs in the county who are losing numbers through emigration but it's a problem nonetheless.
Is there any fund or development model that Croke Pk can make available?
No mystery at all it's just 87 years of poxy refs and injuries.
Seriously though we have a bad habit of squandering the talented groups that do come along. Serious squad in the 70s that didn't bother to train in any serious way and surprise, surprise, were walloped by Dublin in a string of Leinster finals.
If we had held on to Tompkins and Fahy they would have dovetailed nicely with the Ryans, Buckleys and Rainbows coming through in the early 90s and might have made a breakthrough. Instead we stood by and watched them walk out.
In the mid-90s in our infinite wisdom we ran Micko out of the place in 94 despite him being a second away from beating a very decent Dublin team. Abject first round defeats followed in 95 and 96 before we went back to him with immediate improvement and almost an All-Ireland (Galway were just a better side though). But there was no need to waste two years.
We had another good crop of players when McGeeney took over but shot ourselves in the foot again - I honestly think the embarrassment that was the SJ madness was the end of any unity and therefore and chance that team had.
Another talented crop that should peak about 2019 is coming through but a couple are playing Aussie Rules and I would have serious question marks over the attitude of some others. People go on about the money in Kildare but the county is run abysmally, particularly in terms of fundraising.
So two problems:
1) Being run by gobshites (from not organising themselves in the 70s to alienating two superstars in the 80s to getting rid of a manager on the verge of a breakthrough in the 90s to in the 2010s being spineless over Johnston and running the organisation as if it's the 80s and not the 21st century).
2) A losing mentality caused by eight and a half decades of, eh, losing. Too many players who see becoming a county player as the end goal rather than the starting point.
Quote from: Ohtoohtobe on December 21, 2015, 12:39:14 AM
No mystery at all it's just 87 years of poxy refs and injuries.
Seriously though we have a bad habit of squandering the talented groups that do come along. Serious squad in the 70s that didn't bother to train in any serious way and surprise, surprise, were walloped by Dublin in a string of Leinster finals.
If we had held on to Tompkins and Fahy they would have dovetailed nicely with the Ryans, Buckleys and Rainbows coming through in the early 90s and might have made a breakthrough. Instead we stood by and watched them walk out.
In the mid-90s in our infinite wisdom we ran Micko out of the place in 94 despite him being a second away from beating a very decent Dublin team. Abject first round defeats followed in 95 and 96 before we went back to him with immediate improvement and almost an All-Ireland (Galway were just a better side though). But there was no need to waste two years.
We had another good crop of players when McGeeney took over but shot ourselves in the foot again - I honestly think the embarrassment that was the SJ madness was the end of any unity and therefore and chance that team had.
Another talented crop that should peak about 2019 is coming through but a couple are playing Aussie Rules and I would have serious question marks over the attitude of some others. People go on about the money in Kildare but the county is run abysmally, particularly in terms of fundraising.
So two problems:
1) Being run by gobshites (from not organising themselves in the 70s to alienating two superstars in the 80s to getting rid of a manager on the verge of a breakthrough in the 90s to in the 2010s being spineless over Johnston and running the organisation as if it's the 80s and not the 21st century).
2) A losing mentality caused by eight and a half decades of, eh, losing. Too many players who see becoming a county player as the end goal rather than the starting point.
That is a fantastically informative post, oohtoohbe. I think it is one of the reasons why I love this site so much. The level of insight is so much better than in the newspapers.
Newspapers GAA and other sports usually consists of a string of cliches cobbled together.
Thanks Seafoid yeah I think too many pundits just stick with no-scoring-forwards when Kildare are mentioned. That was true at times in the 90s but is lazy analysis now when our defence is a much bigger problem.
Anyway, hopefully Cian O'Neill lives up to his reputation and changes the mentality.
Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....
Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on December 18, 2015, 05:15:24 PM
I'd agree with a lot of what Captain Scarlet has outlined above. Outside of Newbridge, only Athy, Celbridge and Confey of the suburban clubs are performing up to their potential and the latter two compete at a high level in both codes which probably doesn't help their chances of competing with the Newbridge clubs.
The Naas club lacks the identity that the Newbridge clubs have. They've been out of the running since the Johnny McDonald was on the scene although their recent Féile success suggests they may finally come good in the years ahead. Like Celbridge and Confey though their dual status might hold them back from a football point of view.
Towers and Kilcock as mentioned earlier have fallen away and have gone from competing at the top of the senior championship to struggling to get out of intermediate in a short space of time. Clane have also been in a sharp decline which is poor from a club who used to backbone the county team. Their minor's and Scoil Mhuire's recent successes need to be built upon.
A lot of Kildare's "newer" population are simply not involved in their local communities to anywhere near the same extent as the first wave of migrants who settled in places like Naas, Celbridge and Leixlip in the early 1980s. They would have mostly been from the counties on the southern and western seaboard whereas now the people settling in Kildare are migrating out from the capital. Generally the more recent migrants spend most of their days commuting and as a result of this commuting culture a lot of them have little involvement locally. This leads to a lack of the same local identity that can be found in the older areas of the towns and in the more rural areas of the county. There needs to be a big drive to get the children of this new population involved in the local clubs.
That could be understood as acute ethnic dilution by the dubious virtue of being next door to that awful Dublin sprawl. I do sympathise.
But their children will be Kildarites, eventually. The first port of call is GAA activity in the schools.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 21, 2015, 07:09:46 PM
Newspapers GAA and other sports usually consists of a string of cliches cobbled together.
especially indo weekdays. Martin Breheny FFS. Jesus, what a dull journalist
I like Brolly, Keith Duggan and Kimmage
Quote from: Beffs on December 21, 2015, 11:24:54 PM
Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....
Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.
Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.
Quote from: Ohtoohtobe on December 22, 2015, 03:56:32 AM
Quote from: Beffs on December 21, 2015, 11:24:54 PM
Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....
Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.
Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.
Any good Young players coming through?
Quote from: Ohtoohtobe on December 22, 2015, 03:56:32 AM
Quote from: Beffs on December 21, 2015, 11:24:54 PM
Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....
Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.
Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.
There's always optimism, sure it's the hope that kills you.
Even the KCB seem to be more democratic than autocratic and officers now realise that they have to prove their worth.
I advocated O'Neill's appointment, he has come from a high performance culture with Kerry and has served a good apprenticeship under Fitzmaurice and Horan.
O'Neill will be performance oriented but supporters goals are straightforward promotion and a Leinster final appearance. That would be a good 2016, well as along we don't suffer two capitulations like Dublin and Kerry this year.
Galvin was an old man returning to play a young man's game, like all ego's they look to shift the blame, wouldn't worry too much about what he says.
Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.
I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.
I think this is hugely interesting question and one that is at the heart of what we should be doing in the GAA. It's also reflective of a broader sports development discussion and something that is leading to a rethink in UK sport as far as I know. It is my view that adult (or elite) sport success is created primarily by focusing on kids and investing in them. Instead, huge resources are wasted on a small few elite athletes with often limited returns. Build a strong base and you will end up with high level elite performers and this is true of any sport. That's not to say you ignore the top but you don't prioritise it to such a degree that the base suffers.
A county like Kildare should be fanatical about getting as many young boys and girls playing football and providing a modern, scientific, skill based and enjoyable pathway to elite level. I also think the GAA should partly fund this as it is in their own interests to have big, income generating counties like Kildare strong, especially in Leinster. The GAA is set up perfectly to create elite athletes, and by that I mean world class level, even they only actually compete at county level. There's a disproportionate amount of world class athletes from cities with 100,000 or less people. We have a small island with 32 distinct areas and numerous clubs that cater for relatively small numbers within each county. If Kildare devised and initiated a universal player recruitment and development program they should quickly become a consistent force at national level. It wouldn't be overly difficult to do, and if supported by Croke Park, very realistic.
Quote from: Zulu on December 22, 2015, 02:40:07 PM
I think this is hugely interesting question and one that is at the heart of what we should be doing in the GAA. It's also reflective of a broader sports development discussion and something that is leading to a rethink in UK sport as far as I know. It is my view that adult (or elite) sport success is created primarily by focusing on kids and investing in them. Instead, huge resources are wasted on a small few elite athletes with often limited returns. Build a strong base and you will end up with high level elite performers and this is true of any sport. That's not to say you ignore the top but you don't prioritise it to such a degree that the base suffers.
A county like Kildare should be fanatical about getting as many young boys and girls playing football and providing a modern, scientific, skill based and enjoyable pathway to elite level. I also think the GAA should partly fund this as it is in their own interests to have big, income generating counties like Kildare strong, especially in Leinster. The GAA is set up perfectly to create elite athletes, and by that I mean world class level, even they only actually compete at county level. There's a disproportionate amount of world class athletes from cities with 100,000 or less people. We have a small island with 32 distinct areas and numerous clubs that cater for relatively small numbers within each county. If Kildare devised and initiated a universal player recruitment and development program they should quickly become a consistent force at national level. It wouldn't be overly difficult to do, and if supported by Croke Park, very realistic.
I agree. and CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 03:25:23 PM
CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..
Can you imagine the crowds ( and €€€€€€s) if well populated Counties like Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow were challenging Dublin every year in Leinster.
Any investment would be well recouped.
Not just Leinster counties though. We bemoan the lack of competition in both codes yet we allow all counties to (seemingly) paddle their own canoes when a bit of directed financial and coaching support for a few years could make counties like Kildare, Meath, Antrim, Limerick, Louth, Galway, Roscommon, Cork etc. much stronger and ultimately self sufficient.
I've mainly coached kids for the past 3 years but coached adults previously and it's striking how much different it is in terms of player development. While you can improve an adult player you have the time to transform an underage player and because they are keen to learn you can really develop fundamentally sound players. When you get kids with exceptional talent then you can produce exceptional players that can do it all. To be fair, the standard of young player being produced now is generally far ahead of those in previous generations but there's still room for improvement.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 22, 2015, 03:35:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 03:25:23 PM
CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..
Can you imagine the crowds ( and €€€€€€s) if well populated Counties like Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow were challenging Dublin every year in Leinster.
Any investment would be well recouped.
Exactly Rossfan and that could then be distributed to other counties for direct investment. But not only the crowds, the publicity and interest it would generate for football amongst the wider sporting community would help motivate and inspire kids to focus (or take up) on the game. That in turn helps the clubs and helps us tap into communities where we haven't a strong presence.
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.
I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.
A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.
While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.
There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.
I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.
A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.
While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.
There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0
did the power stations/BnM sites have their own teams or was it that core groups of players from the workplaces joined the most local team? the Galway 3 in a row team of later that decade was based around UCG students
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDzueyAM3Fo
One of Marty-s better bits of work IMO...
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
I suspect Kildare's success during the 1920s and 1930s was partly a result of the relative lack of impact that the War of Independence and the Civil War had in the county. The Curragh being the military base of the British Army in Ireland and the Free State Army post 1922 as well as the physical geography of the county, discouraged guerrilla activity. Kildare saw little action during the war years and consequently there wasn't the same bitter legacy into the late 1920s and 1930s like there was in many other counties.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
There is something in that alright. The underage structures were badly neglected during the Mick O'Dwyer years in the 1990s. I wouldn't attribute any fault to the man himself who always brought young players through and won a Leinster u21 title during the only year that he was invited to coach one of the county underage teams.
Micko's contribution to the county was huge in terms of giving players belief and generating interest around the county. Anyone who remembers Kildare in the 1980s will tell you what a shambles we were. We lost to Kilkenny in an O'Byrne Cup tie one year and were embarrassed by Wicklow in Aughrim in 1990. Tompkins kicking Cork to All Ireland titles during those years was the ultimate kick in the teeth. Micko and the late Michael Osborne (whose contribution is greatly underrated) pulled Kildare football off the canvas. The interest and hype generated from 1991 to 2002 in Kildare football was incredible and hasn't come close to being replicated since. Kildare would regularly bring crowds of 30,000 to games in the late 1990s and I think the brains trust in the county thought it would last forever.
While Micko was great for Kildare his two stints in charge probably did foster a culture of believing that a "big name" manager will solve everything. That was evident during McGeeney's tenure. To be fair Kildare have been putting proper underage structures in place in recent years after the neglect of the 1990s when Laois and Westmeath were showing the way. The unfortunate thing from a Kildare point of view is that we were probably five years behind the Dubs in terms of putting those structures in place.
I would be cautiously optimistic about the future prospects. We have the best qualified local candidates over Kildare football in Cian O'Neill and Bryan Murphy. I just hope they are given a few years to get it right and that there isn't an overreaction when results go against them which will inevitably happen at some stage or another. There is some talent there to work with but I wouldn't be expecting miracles straight away. Winning Leinster minor and u21 titles is great but we need to put a few of them together and then go on outside of the province.
We also need to hang on to our best underage players. Paddy Brophy is a big loss at the moment and Sean Hurley would add an option in a position of weakness. Kevin Feely and Dan Flynn are only recently returned and it remains to be seen whether they can live up to their underage promise. It has taken Paul Cribbin the guts of three years to properly reestablish himself since returning. O'Neill has spoken about trying to get the two lads back from Aussie Rules which is probably an exercise in optics but at least it is sending out the message that the management are doing everything in their power to make sure Kildare are successful.
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 22, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on December 22, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.
Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.
You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.
Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.
I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.
A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.
While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.
There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0
did the power stations/BnM sites have their own teams or was it that core groups of players from the workplaces joined the most local team? the Galway 3 in a row team of later that decade was based around UCG students
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDzueyAM3Fo
One of Marty-s better bits of work IMO...
It seems like there was vibrant inter-works scene back in the day:
http://www.heartland.ie/articles/unique-bord-na-m%C3%B3na-presentation-ballina
There was. And some of the inter works teams were loaded. There's a Bord na Mona facebook page that goes through some of the nostalgia photos. Some of the works teams were unreal. My Da played with Croghan, and Derry Greenagh, and finished up with Derrinlough. A load of county players playing in all 3.
I just went back through championship results at under 21 and minor levels in the past 12 years and checked out the head to head results with Dublin in that period. Of the 18 times the two teams have met Kildare have won 7, lost 6 with 5 draws in that period. It must also be noted that Kildare's underage structures have improved dramatically in latter years also.
Why then can Kildare not at least be competitive with them at senior level? Hopefully the replacement of Jason Ryan with Cian O'Neill will help but the fundamental reason remains the financial resources gap. It looks as if no other county will ever be able to close this unless the GAA reforms the way central funds are distributed.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 17, 2015, 11:38:02 PM
too many Dubs have moved out, ala Meath
if you look at most of the successful GAA clubs in Dublin in the last 20 years, a lot of them are backboned by families originally from outside Dublin, in terms of playing, coaching teams and administration. In both hurling and football.
Good point.
Lads can't go training anymore for fear the house will be robbed while they're gone.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 24, 2016, 08:16:12 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 17, 2015, 11:38:02 PM
too many Dubs have moved out, ala Meath
if you look at most of the successful GAA clubs in Dublin in the last 20 years, a lot of them are backboned by families originally from outside Dublin, in terms of playing, coaching teams and administration. In both hurling and football.
Good point.
Lads can't go training anymore for fear the house will be robbed while they're gone.
:)
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2015, 01:57:27 PM
I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
No forwards. Too many lads built for the gym and not for the football pitch. Have won a couple minors in leinster should be improving in few years
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2015, 05:04:05 PM
Meath seem to sunk to Kildare's level these days.
Karma for 2010 I suppose.
I honestly think that Football is no longer that important in many counties.
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2015, 01:57:27 PM
I was wondering driving off the cork motorway past goffs and signs for russborough house and all tbe great land. How is it that Kildare have not won an all ireland since 1928?
Yeah, it's a mystery alright, Seafood.
I mean, as you've identified yourself, they have all the fundamentals.
Motorway adjacent, bloodstock sales, a stately house with lovely walled gardens, and... plenty of good grass.
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Seems to tick all the boxes.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.
Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.
Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you
Great, you're a tough nut so if he impresses you could be a great appointment 8)
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.
Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you
Great, you're a tough nut so if he impresses you could be a great appointment 8)
Ha! I'd say the only reason he's not involved with the DCB is he's been in Kildare for so long - he'll be great for ye
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 24, 2016, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Do you know him personally? Seems to tick all the boxes.
Great operator, know him well - it's a real coup for you
Great, you're a tough nut so if he impresses you could be a great appointment 8)
Thought of very highly in the Defence Forces. Serious appointment for Kildare GAA.
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Sounds ominous.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 24, 2016, 09:11:06 PM
Quote from: heffo on August 24, 2016, 07:54:00 PM
Nice to see Kildare seeing sense and appointing Jim Gavin's ex-teammate to the position of Head of Operations in Kildare
Sounds ominous.
We have a new logo
(http://img.wallpaperfolder.com/f/66AAF30F2476/terminator-skynet-cyberdyne-bjwq.jpg)
Is the land the problem ? Do horsey people keep the GAA crowd down ?
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/kildare-estate-surrounded-by-stud-farms-for-25m-1.2782841
Too many studs in Kildare.
Leave Donnelly's Hollow out of this >:(
We are going to go ahead with trying to fix Conleths
(http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/04/19/55/csvthi10.jpg)
(http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/04/19/55/csvthj10.jpg)
The stand looks well but will only go as far at the two 20m lines and will probably reduce capacity from what it is at present. The new dressing rooms are badly needed but a couple of extra large portakabins would probably have been more cost effective. There is really no money available to fund these developments apart from squeezing whatever is left from struggling clubs after the Hawkfield development.
Any more talk of that proposal about a 25k stadium near the M50?
I see Paddy Brophy is coming home from Oz.
Quote from: Jinxy on April 25, 2017, 02:31:27 PM
I see Paddy Brophy is coming home from Oz.
That is a good sign
Quote from: Jinxy on April 25, 2017, 02:31:27 PM
I see Paddy Brophy is coming home from Oz.
If he can still walk properly he'll be one of the more able-bodied Irish to return home from Aussie Rules.
Hopefully he won't be crocked. He was never the flashiest footballer but he used to remind me a lot of Andy Moran with his movement and intelligence of his runs from FF. He was deceptively quick and obviously big and strong too. If he can get back up to pace he will be a big addition for our division 1 survival campaign in 2018. He had balls under pressure too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HknSGwFZi3s
They tried playing him at half back in the AFL which was stupid.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on April 25, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
They tried playing him at half back in the AFL which was stupid.
McGeeney would probably have tried him at half back if still in charge of Kildare ;D
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on April 25, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
They tried playing him at half back in the AFL which was stupid.
That's where pretty much every Irish lad who goes over ends up playing.
Quote from: Jinxy on April 25, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on April 25, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
They tried playing him at half back in the AFL which was stupid.
That's where pretty much every Irish lad who goes over ends up playing.
I know and it doesn't always make sense.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on April 25, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
They tried playing him at half back in the AFL which was stupid.
It's not really, would have zero chance of making it as a tall forward in that game. Pace and ability to read the game is what they're after, is why Kennelly, Clarke and Tuohy all did/are doing reasonably well at half-back.
Always rated Paddy Brophy highly, always remember his minor game against Dublin when himself and Niall Kelly looked as good if not better than Kilkenny, Mannion, Small, Lowdes, Costello and McCaffrey. Maybe not Kilkenny actually, he was superstar at minor level scored 10 or 11 points in one game against Kildare.
Cribben, Flynn, Feeley have all played Pro sports and if Hurley gets fit and now Brophy that could be 5 ex-professionals in the Kildare ranks, must be a record surely?
Rory Feeley is another one playing soccer with St Pats.
Great news from a Kildare pov. Disappointed it didn't work out for Paddy though.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2017, 10:40:04 AM
Always rated Paddy Brophy highly, always remember his minor game against Dublin when himself and Niall Kelly looked as good if not better than Kilkenny, Mannion, Small, Lowdes, Costello and McCaffrey. Maybe not Kilkenny actually, he was superstar at minor level scored 10 or 11 points in one game against Kildare.
Cribben, Flynn, Feeley have all played Pro sports and if Hurley gets fit and now Brophy that could be 5 ex-professionals in the Kildare ranks, must be a record surely?
Rory Feeley is another one playing soccer with St Pats.
Great news from a Kildare pov. Disappointed it didn't work out for Paddy though.
One glaring absentee in that list, will we ever see Shergar back?
After a few years of professional training imagine how many pull-ups he can do.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2017, 10:40:04 AM
Always rated Paddy Brophy highly, always remember his minor game against Dublin when himself and Niall Kelly looked as good if not better than Kilkenny, Mannion, Small, Lowdes, Costello and McCaffrey. Maybe not Kilkenny actually, he was superstar at minor level scored 10 or 11 points in one game against Kildare.
Cribben, Flynn, Feeley have all played Pro sports and if Hurley gets fit and now Brophy that could be 5 ex-professionals in the Kildare ranks, must be a record surely?
Rory Feeley is another one playing soccer with St Pats.
Great news from a Kildare pov. Disappointed it didn't work out for Paddy though.
Bad news for Towers if he's back in the next week!
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on April 26, 2017, 12:23:55 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2017, 10:40:04 AM
Always rated Paddy Brophy highly, always remember his minor game against Dublin when himself and Niall Kelly looked as good if not better than Kilkenny, Mannion, Small, Lowdes, Costello and McCaffrey. Maybe not Kilkenny actually, he was superstar at minor level scored 10 or 11 points in one game against Kildare.
Cribben, Flynn, Feeley have all played Pro sports and if Hurley gets fit and now Brophy that could be 5 ex-professionals in the Kildare ranks, must be a record surely?
Rory Feeley is another one playing soccer with St Pats.
Great news from a Kildare pov. Disappointed it didn't work out for Paddy though.
Bad news for Towers if he's back in the next week!
Ha! Nice player to bring off the bench , a tough challenge might just get tougher.
Apparently he missed his horse.
Quote from: Jinxy on April 27, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
Apparently he missed his horse.
Not like a Kildare forward to miss.
Lookit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid
"St. Brigid is associated with perpetual, sacred flames, such as the one maintained by 19 nuns at her sanctuary in Kildare, Ireland. The sacred flame at Kildare was said by Giraldus Cambrensis and other chroniclers to have been surrounded by a hedge, which no man could cross. Men who attempted to cross the hedge were said to have been cursed to go insane, die or be crippled or lose all Ireland finals"
I think they built a parking spot for a Range Rover over the flame.
As if an oul hedge would stop any Kildare man worth his salt.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/14/article-2129771-1298A5E4000005DC-831_634x434.jpg)
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2017, 10:40:04 AM
Always rated Paddy Brophy highly, always remember his minor game against Dublin when himself and Niall Kelly looked as good if not better than Kilkenny, Mannion, Small, Lowdes, Costello and McCaffrey. Maybe not Kilkenny actually, he was superstar at minor level scored 10 or 11 points in one game against Kildare.
Cribben, Flynn, Feeley have all played Pro sports and if Hurley gets fit and now Brophy that could be 5 ex-professionals in the Kildare ranks, must be a record surely?
Rory Feeley is another one playing soccer with St Pats.
Great news from a Kildare pov. Disappointed it didn't work out for Paddy though.
Costello was better than them all at underage at least imho. Lad was and is a beautiful footballer but he dragged the Dublin hurlers to the minor AI final by putting them on his back too. Ridiculously adaptable.
Good to see lads returning, if it's what they want. Kilkenny's open letter on his return himself she'd a light on the homesickness a lot of the young lads trekking off to Oz have to deal with.
Quote from: Jinxy on May 01, 2017, 08:31:06 PM
As if an oul hedge would stop any Kildare man worth his salt.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/14/article-2129771-1298A5E4000005DC-831_634x434.jpg)
That's a Kildare woman on board!
Them horsy crowd all look the same.
This is why I never go out in Kildare.
http://www.laoistoday.ie/2017/05/22/jack-nolan-refreshing-display-much-admire/
The Lilywhites will bring their usual arrogance to the game but yesterday's victory will be a huge boost to the Laois players and they should be in fine fettle for whatever Kildare bring.
Only 1 defeat in 11 games since 2006 kinda tells the tale.
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
http://www.laoistoday.ie/2017/05/22/jack-nolan-refreshing-display-much-admire/
The Lilywhites will bring their usual arrogance to the game but yesterday's victory will be a huge boost to the Laois players and they should be in fine fettle for whatever Kildare bring.
Laois?
Only a matter of just toggin out.
Division 1 v Division 4 !
Has to be a cakewalk for the Lilies.
Not naturally forward
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/gaa-star-receives-more-than-310000-damages-over-king-of-the-swingers-articles-35758826.html
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 23, 2017, 11:54:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 23, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
http://www.laoistoday.ie/2017/05/22/jack-nolan-refreshing-display-much-admire/
The Lilywhites will bring their usual arrogance to the game but yesterday's victory will be a huge boost to the Laois players and they should be in fine fettle for whatever Kildare bring.
Laois?
Only a matter of just toggin out.
True. In fact our lads are considering giving a walkover and going straight to the qualifiers.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/the-whole-time-over-there-you-think-about-football-paddy-brophy-on-life-in-the-afl-35773094.html