The US policing crisis thread

Started by Eamonnca1, April 28, 2015, 07:10:37 AM

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whitey

Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 08:38:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 08:23:45 PM
Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 07:53:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 06:37:48 PM
Why would we do that?

All of this stuff is interconnected

How is police discrimination against the black community, and crime rates within the black community linked?

Your hardly making the racist argument that the latter justifies the former are you?

Not at all

Keep in mind in a city like Chicago 20% of all officers are black and the Chief is Black. For all we know the officer who shot the gunman last Sunday was black

If an officer is responding to a 911 call in what is deemed/defined (by statistics) to be a high crime area, he or she has a much greater likelihood of encountering a suspect who is armed (and willing to shoot)  than they would be  in a rich area where they are called to help get a cat out of a tree.

So what you guys refer to as "discrimination" in many cases may not be discrimination at all. They are errors or misjudgments caused by poor training or poor judgement erercized in extremely Tense and  life threatening situations

Chicago is so dangerous, Spike Lee coined the phrase Chiraq. More people were murdered in this ONE city in the last 5 years, than were murdered during the 30 years of conflict of The Troubles

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gq.com/story/chi-raq-controversy-spike-lee/amp

Doesn't explain Rodney King, George Floyd or the countless other blatant acts of violent rascism by police against African Americans.

To be clear Whitey - black people aren't making this stuff up or misunderstanding it in any way shape or form.

They see incidents for what they are - occasionally it's  well intentioned yet tragic mistakes by honest cops - but more often dirty violent racism

Yes-I completely agree and there are bad apples who never should have been let in to begin with or should have been kicked out once they were in.....no reasonable person would dispute that. Ang doing forward hopefully we'll see more and more of them kicked out

And Black people absolutely have every right to feel aggrieved for how they have been treated by certain elements of law enforcement.....no can can dispute that either

But for white liberals (who would $hit themselves 10 times over if they even had to even walk through one of these neighborhoods) to start calling for the police to be either defunded or disbanded is lunacy of the highest order. That's not what the Black community wants.....that's what THEY  want

Some of these besieged communities actually want MORE police

And for people like Eamonn or Sid or whoever start cherry picking  incidents involving the police  to create  a narrative, how is that any different from a white person cherry picking incidents of Black criminality to also create a narrative

There are 20,000,000 traffic stops in the United States every year and 99.99999% of those pass without incident. The likes of Eamonn and Sid use the 0.000001% to tar every police officer with a label that is not only very divisive, but is also becoming very dangerous

Listen - I can't claim to speak for the black community, and would never try to.

The best I can do is analogise to here when the RUC was disbanded - it was a great thing. Fresh start for all - don't get me wrong, some of the ancient distrust lingers - but it's a vast improvement.

I can only think a wholesale reform such as that would be a good way forward in America too.

Give it whatever label you want, but new forces with ombudsman's and policing boards made up of community representatives would have least give formal redress to grievances.



Absolutely agree with everything you say, but the RUC analogy is somewhat inaccurate

Many of the inner city communities are virtual war zones with Black people shooting Black people day in and day out. Chicago will have close to 800 murders this year alone

The cops are being asked to step in the middle and play peacemaker and not alone do they get little support from the community, but they often get dogs abuse after having put  their lives in danger-just look at the videos of what occurred last Sunday in Englewood

Yes, there are bad cops and crooked cops, but isolated incidents get sensationalized by people with other agendas to push.

Gabriel_Hurl

Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 12, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
Whitey, what would be your view on bringing that total down? The 8 times more likely to commit murder?

No point banging on about that number unless you see a way of stopping it?

Obviously shooting them or chocking them to death will only create more violence..

Education/fair employment/banning guns/better housing/better health?

Would they be the best way forward? or just continue with the current set up and hope for the best?

8 times more likely to be murdered would be a more accurate description of the problem

I'm in the middle of something right now but will respond later.

For a man "in the middle of something right now" you sure posted a lot without answering the question.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 12, 2020, 10:19:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 12, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
Whitey, what would be your view on bringing that total down? The 8 times more likely to commit murder?

No point banging on about that number unless you see a way of stopping it?

Obviously shooting them or chocking them to death will only create more violence..

Education/fair employment/banning guns/better housing/better health?

Would they be the best way forward? or just continue with the current set up and hope for the best?

8 times more likely to be murdered would be a more accurate description of the problem

I'm in the middle of something right now but will respond later.

For a man "in the middle of something right now" you sure posted a lot without answering the question.

I was looking back, thinking, I've missed his response  ;D
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

whitey

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 13, 2020, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 12, 2020, 10:19:42 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 12, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
Whitey, what would be your view on bringing that total down? The 8 times more likely to commit murder?

No point banging on about that number unless you see a way of stopping it?

Obviously shooting them or chocking them to death will only create more violence..

Education/fair employment/banning guns/better housing/better health?

Would they be the best way forward? or just continue with the current set up and hope for the best?

8 times more likely to be murdered would be a more accurate description of the problem

I'm in the middle of something right now but will respond later.

For a man "in the middle of something right now" you sure posted a lot without answering the question.

I was looking back, thinking, I've missed his response  ;D

So you're asking 2 separate questions....(1) .how do you fix society? (2) how do you fix policing?

I'll answer #2 first

Hire more Black officers

Hire/recruit civilian "ride alongs"-both paid and unpaid

Mandatory use of body cams

Significant de-escalation training

Change the rules of engagement when it comes to using your service revolver

Weeding out and firing of "bad apples"

Change in hiring practices-more college graduates and people with backgrounds in social services

Mandatory community participation/engagement-eg one day a week


Now you could do ALL that and still most likely have 800 people murdered in Chicago this year. The 2 problems are interconnected but solving one won't automatically solve the other and vice versa

So then we come to question #1-how do you fix a broken society?

That's the hard one because (IMO) some people are simply beyond redemption. Focus on the ones that you have a chance of "saving" from the streets before it's too late

I'd mandate very town in America provide housing for non violent inner city residents who want to relocate.

I'd pay for it by applying among other things a 1% sales tax in every Residential real estate transaction in the town

I would establish an investment fund to invest in inner cities funded by a wealth tax of 1% in everyone making more than $500K. I would have the largest companies in the country provide me with finance whiz kids free of charge to administer it-zero fraud, zero waste, zero corruption

I would charge a 1% tax in every car costing more than $50K to provide good, safe and free public transport in inner cities.

I would change the drug laws to decriminalize low level drug offenses

I would train up non violent prisoners on basic carpentry, plumbing and electrics and have an army of people available fix up PEOPLE's houses at low or no cost

I would force companies to bring back manufacturing jobs to these neighborhoods eg companies  provide equipment to the Federal government. Eg the military exclusively wear New Balance sneakers and every single pair is made here in the states to the best of my knowledge. Having the government pay an extra $5 per pair of sneakers is a whole lot cheaper than paying to police and incarcerate someone with nothing to do than hang around the streets

I could go on and on and on, but that would be a good start

Milltown Row2

There are some immediate fixes and they need to be universal across all states, that's the proposals you'd highlighted at the start of your post, I don't see much wrong with them..

The second one is the hardest as it's going to take decades and multiple presidents to push those social reforms through, and we've seen in the past that a new president will scrap previous policies to suit his own agenda.

The one thing you've left out is health, I understand the complexity of trying a NHS model in the states, Christ even here it's falling apart at times, but it's a god send and my family are reaping the benefits of it at the minute... that question or attempt to fix it is also barrier, but certainly if you're creating more jobs through the points you raised it will generate more money thus creating a better chance to have health insurance..

Outside looking in America just looks so divided, not just through race but the haves and have nots, the gap is getting wider.

I've friends that have done extremely well for themselves in the states, and the job opportunities their kids have got will set them up for life, two of their kids are working in Wall Street, the other still at college, so it still looks like the land of opportunity but I'd say that's the lucky ones.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

J70

Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 09:12:36 PM
Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 08:38:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 08:23:45 PM
Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 07:53:07 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: Chief on August 12, 2020, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 12, 2020, 06:37:48 PM
Why would we do that?

All of this stuff is interconnected

How is police discrimination against the black community, and crime rates within the black community linked?

Your hardly making the racist argument that the latter justifies the former are you?

Not at all

Keep in mind in a city like Chicago 20% of all officers are black and the Chief is Black. For all we know the officer who shot the gunman last Sunday was black

If an officer is responding to a 911 call in what is deemed/defined (by statistics) to be a high crime area, he or she has a much greater likelihood of encountering a suspect who is armed (and willing to shoot)  than they would be  in a rich area where they are called to help get a cat out of a tree.

So what you guys refer to as "discrimination" in many cases may not be discrimination at all. They are errors or misjudgments caused by poor training or poor judgement erercized in extremely Tense and  life threatening situations

Chicago is so dangerous, Spike Lee coined the phrase Chiraq. More people were murdered in this ONE city in the last 5 years, than were murdered during the 30 years of conflict of The Troubles

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gq.com/story/chi-raq-controversy-spike-lee/amp

Doesn't explain Rodney King, George Floyd or the countless other blatant acts of violent rascism by police against African Americans.

To be clear Whitey - black people aren't making this stuff up or misunderstanding it in any way shape or form.

They see incidents for what they are - occasionally it's  well intentioned yet tragic mistakes by honest cops - but more often dirty violent racism

Yes-I completely agree and there are bad apples who never should have been let in to begin with or should have been kicked out once they were in.....no reasonable person would dispute that. Ang doing forward hopefully we'll see more and more of them kicked out

And Black people absolutely have every right to feel aggrieved for how they have been treated by certain elements of law enforcement.....no can can dispute that either

But for white liberals (who would $hit themselves 10 times over if they even had to even walk through one of these neighborhoods) to start calling for the police to be either defunded or disbanded is lunacy of the highest order. That's not what the Black community wants.....that's what THEY  want

Some of these besieged communities actually want MORE police

And for people like Eamonn or Sid or whoever start cherry picking  incidents involving the police  to create  a narrative, how is that any different from a white person cherry picking incidents of Black criminality to also create a narrative

There are 20,000,000 traffic stops in the United States every year and 99.99999% of those pass without incident. The likes of Eamonn and Sid use the 0.000001% to tar every police officer with a label that is not only very divisive, but is also becoming very dangerous

Listen - I can't claim to speak for the black community, and would never try to.

The best I can do is analogise to here when the RUC was disbanded - it was a great thing. Fresh start for all - don't get me wrong, some of the ancient distrust lingers - but it's a vast improvement.

I can only think a wholesale reform such as that would be a good way forward in America too.

Give it whatever label you want, but new forces with ombudsman's and policing boards made up of community representatives would have least give formal redress to grievances.



Absolutely agree with everything you say, but the RUC analogy is somewhat inaccurate

Many of the inner city communities are virtual war zones with Black people shooting Black people day in and day out. Chicago will have close to 800 murders this year alone

The cops are being asked to step in the middle and play peacemaker and not alone do they get little support from the community, but they often get dogs abuse after having put  their lives in danger-just look at the videos of what occurred last Sunday in Englewood

Yes, there are bad cops and crooked cops, but isolated incidents get sensationalized by people with other agendas to push.

Isolated incidents that actually occur or that happen to be recorded? How many bad or corrupt or covered-up incidents occur for every one that is recorded and makes it to youtube?

I agree with many of your suggestions on your other post BTW on how to start addressing the root causes.

Eamonnca1

There are certain people, we'll call them 'unionists,' who think that any discrimination suffered by catholics prior to or during the Troubles, was self-inflicted. They argue that catholics chose to isolate themselves from the state, setting up their own education system, and refusing to work because they were feckless and lazy, as well as violent. Meanwhile the "gallant RUC" did a dangerous job in dangerous circumstances and how dare anyone criticize anything they did.  They were so brave, so heroic, that any criticism of the force was unpatriotic and inappropriate.

Sound familiar?

whitey

https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Gmac

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 13, 2020, 05:24:55 PM
There are certain people, we'll call them 'unionists,' who think that any discrimination suffered by catholics prior to or during the Troubles, was self-inflicted. They argue that catholics chose to isolate themselves from the state, setting up their own education system, and refusing to work because they were feckless and lazy, as well as violent. Meanwhile the "gallant RUC" did a dangerous job in dangerous circumstances and how dare anyone criticize anything they did.  They were so brave, so heroic, that any criticism of the force was unpatriotic and inappropriate.

Sound familiar?
we should change this threads name to the uk  polIcing crisis .

J70

#1044
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.

Gmac

Quote from: J70 on August 13, 2020, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.
hitler , Mussolini, Stalin , nazis , stormtroopers, gestapo all good though?

J70

Quote from: Gmac on August 13, 2020, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 13, 2020, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.
hitler , Mussolini, Stalin , nazis , stormtroopers, gestapo all good though?

I think you need to expand on your attempt at equivalency.

sid waddell

Quote from: Gmac on August 13, 2020, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 13, 2020, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.
hitler , Mussolini, Stalin , nazis , stormtroopers, gestapo all good though?
All are deeply appropriate and historically accurate comparisons for Trump, his goon squad and the murderous American police.

"Kamaltoe" is an pathetic insult used by a moronic white supremacist sc**bag who hates the fact that a strong and highly intelligent black woman can make a US presidential ticket.


whitey

#1048
Quote from: J70 on August 13, 2020, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.

Had you not heard that nick name? I thought it was quite clever

Did you know if you mis-pronounce her name it's a form of racism and also passive aggressive

She must have been right during the debates about poor Joe being a racist, because he sure as hell doesn't know how to pronounce it correctly

(I actually wasn't going to use the nickname until I saw my crazy lefty cousin accuse Pence of racism for mispronouncing her name. I figured I give all you lefties something real to get agitated about)

Gmac

Quote from: sid waddell on August 13, 2020, 08:38:58 PM
Quote from: Gmac on August 13, 2020, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on August 13, 2020, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: whitey on August 13, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
https://cwbchicago.com/2020/08/carjackings-today-in-wicker-park-logan-square-and-ones-caught-on-camera.html

If this stuff keeps up it really going to help Trump

Both Joe and Kamaltoe are in favor of defunding the police

Kamaltoe.

Are you for f**king real?

Embarrassing.
hitler , Mussolini, Stalin , nazis , stormtroopers, gestapo all good though?
All are deeply appropriate and historically accurate comparisons for Trump, his goon squad and the murderous American police.

"Kamaltoe" is an pathetic insult used by a moronic white supremacist sc**bag who hates the fact that a strong and highly intelligent black woman can make a US presidential ticket.
of course she can there's nothing holding you back in this country , thanks for acknowledging Sid .