Gambling in the GAA - the ethical aspect

[Lone Shark]

Now I know that there's another thread on the front page at the moment that's talking about GAA betting in terms of tips and recommendations, but I wanted to look at another aspect - that of the current debate regarding the "problem" of betting in the GAA. It seems to have taken the lead in terms of issues facing our association, kicked off by certain players revealing their own personal battles, and comments like this from administrators - http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/other/gambling-in-gaa-at-crisis-point-says-galway-boss-noel-treacy-711702.html

Now in terms of putting my cards on the table, I've made a good share of my living from GAA betting, I enjoy an occasional bet myself (very occasional since signing on for a mortgage a few years ago) and while I had a few days when I lost the run of myself when I was younger, it was part of the learning experience - no more than a 19 or 20 year old drinking to excess an doing a few things they regret. It's not ideal and not to be encouraged, but most people do it and grow up from there.

However there has been a lot of talk lately about what's to be done about the whole thing, with everyone talking about the following as evils that need to be stamped out:

(1) Addiction
(2) Betting on underage games
(3) Excessive promotion of GAA betting
(4) Ease of access to GAA betting on mobile devices etc.

What I'd be interested in hearing people's views on, is (a) how they feel about all these aspects, and more importantly (b) what actual practical steps they think should be taken by legislators, or even by the GAA if possible.

For what it's worth, my thoughts are as follows:

(1) Of course this is a huge problem, however if someone is addicted, then what they bet on is irrelevant - denying them access to GAA betting will mean that they'll lose all their money on horses, or greyhounds, or Italian Serie C soccer instead. The industry as a whole has a lot or responsibility here, however the vast majority of bookies are generally quite good in this regard in my experience. Certainly in my time working for a huge firm I was instructed as to the various signs of recognising a problem gambler and how to respond, as well as to recognise it for myself - which was of course a huge danger in a 21 year old suddenly introduced to the industry.

(2) Just to be clear here, accepting bets from under-18s is illegal, always has been, and should remain so. That's not what we're talking about - we're talking about adults betting on games where under-18s take part - and I'm not sure how you enforce this. Is it every game involving any player under 18, in which case you could knock out a lot of adult games where a minor takes part (not to mention lots of big races with under-18 jockeys), or is it any game which is exclusively under-18s? In that case it would be very few, since most minor teams would have a handful of lads who would have turned 18 between the 1st of January and the time the game is played. i fully understand the spirit of what's wanted here, but I haven't a clue how you enforce it. Anyway, the whole world will be able to bet on schoolboy soccer internationals, so I don't know what we're going to achieve here.

(3) I can see why a ban on advertising might be advisable, even welcome. Again it would be difficult to draw the line between what is "advertising" and what isn't in the modern social media age, however there's a good case to be made for removing ads from TV, radio etc. Quite how we enforce that on Sky or BT sport channels I don't now, but I'm sure there's some way we can do it - otherwise we're just handicapping Irish bookies in their bid to compete for market share - and that's hardly a good move.

(4) I have a huge problem with this argument. By virtue of owning a smartphone, I agree that I have very easy access to betting channels. However I also have a device that at the touch of a button can dial up my local drug dealer, or record surreptitious footage from the dressing room of the camogie club, or look up detailed instructions for how to set up my own personal process for making explosive devices out of my garage. In a nutshell, I have a tool that can do so many things, and yet I remain responsible for how I choose to use that tool. As a general rule, I've never been a fan of this idea that we discourage certain behaviours by adding an extra layer of difficulty to the process of engaging in them. Addicts will make the effort to do so, and we only discourage casual bettors from having a completely harmless ten or twenty euro bet once a week on the live Sunday Game. 


Anyway, the debate is open. Ye have the floor.

[Milltown Row2]

Like anything else, kids watch others (older ones) placing bets and telling them how much money they make.... They never tell you the many lost bets they have done or how much they actually loose in the year.... I've always set a limit of sorts on my bets online, having a dual account keeps me on my toes as id have to explain losing money... I put a tenner in most weekends unless I've money in it from winnings (I take it out when there is £100) id be down each year but I can afford 10 or 20 quid a week.....

Like most things, educating lads about gambling is the way to go, explaining responsible gambling is ok providing its within your budget...

Can you imagine having a drink/drugs/smoking/gambling and addiction???

[seafoid]

Betting is far more accessible now. There will always be addictive personalities. So more addicts.

[johnneycool]

Firstly there should be an outright ban on betting on underage games, that to my mind is wrong and secondly there should be a betting tax on every bet and the sport the bet is place on should be remunerated accordingly.
Betting companies are getting a service, i.e. a game to make money on but they put absolutely nothing back into it.
I think there used to be a 10% betting tax and the horse racing set got a slice of it, not sure if its still in place though!

[Lone Shark]

Firstly there should be an outright ban on betting on underage games, that to my mind is wrong and secondly there should be a betting tax on every bet and the sport the bet is place on should be remunerated accordingly.
Betting companies are getting a service, i.e. a game to make money on but they put absolutely nothing back into it.
I think there used to be a 10% betting tax and the horse racing set got a slice of it, not sure if its still in place though!

This is my question though - why is betting on underage games wrong, so long as you strictly police the rule that underage people are not allowed to place bets? Secondly, how would you write such a rule? I've seen plenty of people advocate this idea, but I've yet to see it written down in any manner, let alone a workable one.

As for the betting tax idea, well unless you can get your various Mediterranean and Caribbean islands to work in tandem with you, all you're doing then is forcing Irish bookies to relocate overseas in order to compete. A margin of 4% in sports betting now is exceptional, and if you were to impose just a 1% betting tax you're asking companies to play over 25% of gross profit in taxes, before any of their costs are covered. Extra taxes on net profit for the industry might be workable, but this isn't.

This weekend the game between Dublin and Laois will be offered by over 30 online bookmakers. Such a tax would just hit Boylesports and Paddy Power, and the other 28+ would be unaffected. The only ones penalised would be the ones who actually employ people here in Ireland. 

[westbound]

Firstly there should be an outright ban on betting on underage games, that to my mind is wrong and secondly there should be a betting tax on every bet and the sport the bet is place on should be remunerated accordingly.
Betting companies are getting a service, i.e. a game to make money on but they put absolutely nothing back into it.
I think there used to be a 10% betting tax and the horse racing set got a slice of it, not sure if its still in place though!

This is my question though - why is betting on underage games wrong, so long as you strictly police the rule that underage people are not allowed to place bets? Secondly, how would you write such a rule? I've seen plenty of people advocate this idea, but I've yet to see it written down in any manner, let alone a workable one.

As for the betting tax idea, well unless you can get your various Mediterranean and Caribbean islands to work in tandem with you, all you're doing then is forcing Irish bookies to relocate overseas in order to compete. A margin of 4% in sports betting now is exceptional, and if you were to impose just a 1% betting tax you're asking companies to play over 25% of gross profit in taxes, before any of their costs are covered. Extra taxes on net profit for the industry might be workable, but this isn't.

This weekend the game between Dublin and Laois will be offered by over 30 online bookmakers. Such a tax would just hit Boylesports and Paddy Power, and the other 28+ would be unaffected. The only ones penalised would be the ones who actually employ people here in Ireland.

The way the betting tax worked in the past was that the punter paid it (not the bookmaker). Therefore it didn't affect the bookies profits. And it was 10% (and then reduced to 5%).
As a punter I don't agree with a betting tax, but there is no reason why it couldn't be implemented for all bets placed in Ireland. Nothing to do with where the company is based at all.

[Lone Shark]

The way the betting tax worked in the past was that the punter paid it (not the bookmaker). Therefore it didn't affect the bookies profits. And it was 10% (and then reduced to 5%).
As a punter I don't agree with a betting tax, but there is no reason why it couldn't be implemented for all bets placed in Ireland. Nothing to do with where the company is based at all.

All the reasons why that tax needed to be withdrawn several years ago would still apply today. For one thing, you would with one fell swoop be condemning 90% of the betting shops within 45 minutes of the border, from Dundalk to Buncrana, to closure. Almost all their business would move north of the border. Secondly, if I log on to Bet365.com for example and place a €100 bet while sitting on my couch here in Dysart (not that I could since they've closed my account years ago), that's a bet placed in Ireland yet there is absolutely no way for the Irish government to get their hands on the €5, or whatever amount is levied. Bet365 will say that the bet was placed on their server in Gibraltar, or Malta, or wherever, and that principle has been established in law so the Irish government will get nowhere contesting it.

[oneflewoverthecuckoonest]

ok this thread is basically about the gaa and betting with questions on financial kickbacks and underage game wagering.

apart from the two domestic firms, paddys and boyles, many overseas companies are more than happy to offer markets on our games, from inter county to club. in one  way, by offering this product, internationally, it is a compliment to the honesty attached to our  games. these same betting firms are very quick to pull markets on a variety of sports if they deem them contaminated or rigged. I have not heard any information from my various trading office sources to say that any coups have happened in gaa games. this indicates the positive, that whilst  the game is played for sporting purposes, the secondary commercial(gambling) aspect  is not impacting  on games.

I don't see what the problem is about pricing minor games. the firms offer prices on underage soccer games and rugby games and the fact that these games are open to betting does not impact on rugby or soccer. the amount wagered on minor games, save for all Ireland finals and semi finals is relatively light compared to senior games.

along with the idea of getting some sort of rake/return from sports wagering is long since dead. as lone shark mentions, most of the betting firms are now sited off shore and with the majority of betting on line, you cannot tax them or prevent them from trading underage games. as highlighted earlier, if these  underage games were dodgy, be in no doubt the markets would be closed.

if gamblers want to gamble, they will find a means of doing so. better to have it  in the open than to drive it underground or overseas.
this horse has  long since bolted.

[armaghniac]

The way the betting tax worked in the past was that the punter paid it (not the bookmaker). Therefore it didn't affect the bookies profits. And it was 10% (and then reduced to 5%).
As a punter I don't agree with a betting tax, but there is no reason why it couldn't be implemented for all bets placed in Ireland. Nothing to do with where the company is based at all.

All the reasons why that tax needed to be withdrawn several years ago would still apply today. For one thing, you would with one fell swoop be condemning 90% of the betting shops within 45 minutes of the border, from Dundalk to Buncrana, to closure. Almost all their business would move north of the border. Secondly, if I log on to Bet365.com for example and place a €100 bet while sitting on my couch here in Dysart (not that I could since they've closed my account years ago), that's a bet placed in Ireland yet there is absolutely no way for the Irish government to get their hands on the €5, or whatever amount is levied. Bet365 will say that the bet was placed on their server in Gibraltar, or Malta, or wherever, and that principle has been established in law so the Irish government will get nowhere contesting it.

All the same if you order from Amazon.co.uk you have to pay Irish vat, within the EU the possibility should exist for something the same with Internet taxes. Such things would be easily evaded though.

[westbound]

The way the betting tax worked in the past was that the punter paid it (not the bookmaker). Therefore it didn't affect the bookies profits. And it was 10% (and then reduced to 5%).
As a punter I don't agree with a betting tax, but there is no reason why it couldn't be implemented for all bets placed in Ireland. Nothing to do with where the company is based at all.

All the reasons why that tax needed to be withdrawn several years ago would still apply today. For one thing, you would with one fell swoop be condemning 90% of the betting shops within 45 minutes of the border, from Dundalk to Buncrana, to closure. Almost all their business would move north of the border. Secondly, if I log on to Bet365.com for example and place a €100 bet while sitting on my couch here in Dysart (not that I could since they've closed my account years ago), that's a bet placed in Ireland yet there is absolutely no way for the Irish government to get their hands on the €5, or whatever amount is levied. Bet365 will say that the bet was placed on their server in Gibraltar, or Malta, or wherever, and that principle has been established in law so the Irish government will get nowhere contesting it.

Fair enough, I didn't know that. I would have thought that there would have been a way to tax all bets placed on line.
Anyway, as i said above, I'm not in favour a betting tax! 

[macdanger2]

What bookies other than PP, Boyles and Ladbrokes offer GAA betting?

Last time I was on betfair, there was really only a market for the All Ireland and hardly any liquidity in other markets

[easytiger95]

Full disclosure before I comment - like Lone Shark, I also spent a couple of years working for a betting company, but more on the media side than the markets/odds side.

The basic problem with modern betting is convenience - back in the day, to get a bet on, you had to shift yourself to the local bookie, check the odds and write a slip. Smart technology has destroyed all this (or at least will - retail betting will go the way of the dinosaur eventually, except for on track stuff). Combine this with a dressing room culture of general laddishness, saturation advertising and a normalization of betting (when I was growing up, I would have got a clip around the ear if I'd been going into bookies) and you have a perfect storm - but it is across all codes - not isolated to or representative of the GAA.

Bookies offer markets on soccer at all levels and leagues - you couldn't possibly price them properly as a punter, but it is mostly coupon stuff. I think the nature of the GAA (huge amount of different club levels, difficulty of setting dates in the calendars etc) plus the smallness of the market (the smaller the market, the easier it is to affect the prices, leaving them always open to a coup) will mitigate against GAA ever becoming a big product for the companies. But it won't stop football teams, hurling teams, soccer teams, curling teams - whatever - having a punt.

Banning advertising won't do it (as there are so many different forms of it now, from sponsored events to native content?) - banning mobile phones might - but of course that is never going to happen.

[AZOffaly]

This is quite a sad read. I honestly had no idea that so many young lads were gambling so much money they didn't have. I do think the convenience of gambling, and the pervasiveness of the advertising has to have an effect. I have gambled on events when an ad comes on the telly basically reminding me that I can/should have a bet. Now I'm a €5 - €20 man, but I wouldn't even be gambling that much if that cockney guy wasn't on before every single game talking about bet this, bet that.

They stopped cigarette advertising, and stopped making it easy to purchase cigarettes and smoke cigarettes, and it does certainly seem to have had an effect on the numbers smoking, particularly youngsters.

Maybe they need to look at geo-blocking gambling sites, unless the bookmaker enforces a strict limit on betting amounts and frequency. (Which would be easy to do programmatically if you linked the rules to a username/card number etc etc.)

Also, stop the advertising, and particularly the advertising plastered all over sports. People said sports would suffer without advertising from Carrolls, Rothmans and Benson and Hedges, but others stepped in. If we stopped Paddy Power, Bet365, William Hill, Ladbrokes etc from wall to wall advertising and sponsorship of sporting events, then maybe less people would be inclined to bet.

The problem here, the ethical dilemma I suppose, is that while *every* cigarette is harmful, not every bet is indicative of a betting problem, nor is it even a bad thing. I like a little bet. I've a fiver on Tyrone to win the All Ireland. It just gives me a little more vested interest in the outcome of sporting events I am not otherwise emotionally involved in. But at what point do the potential dangers to other people outweigh the right of those firms to make money off of the likes of me? Perhaps Alcohol regulation is a more relevant analogy. You don't ban Alcohol, or Alcoholic Advertising, per se, but you don't allow Alcohol to be 'sponsors' of sporting events, nor do you make it nigh on impossible to regulate the sale of alcohol. You still have alcoholics, but you are at least not trying to actively recruit the next batch of alcoholics.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/gambling-in-the-gaa-i-could-go-to-bed-and-i-could-cry-myself-to-sleep-402576.html

[REDCOL]

The ethical aspects of Bookmakers identifying customers by their handwriting and using online accounts to identify winners and close them down is also an issue.

[Croí na hÉireann]

Was never a big gambler and haven't had money on a game since I realised that I was more invested in hoping the bet came in rather than enjoying and analysing the spectacle that was before me.