MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[RedHand88]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

The mother's life was always protected in NI law. Abortion was legal when her life was in danger.
You are wrong to use that as an excuse to radically change the law.

[Eamonnca1]

There's nothing "radical" about respecting a woman's bodily autonomy.

[omaghjoe]

On demand abortion... f**k sakes what's the point in debating that shit??

Anyone who talks about "abortion on demand" is basically trying to make it sound like women just decide on a whim to get an abortion, as if it's as easy as choosing from a fast food menu.

Lads dont get in such a hissy fit. you dont hear me complain when you call it pro Choice yet the person who's life was taken had no choice at all...
Anyway I googled "on Demand definition" and I got
"as soon as or whenever required." Dont think theres too much in that really to be getting thick about.

[omaghjoe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

[RedHand88]

The flood gates have already opened.

[Milltown Row2]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

[general_lee]

At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?

When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didn't fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

[tonto1888]

Whatever your views on the rights & wrongs of abortion, saying that it is not human life until it is born (and has a birth certificate) is stretching the narrative into the "mental as fcuk" realms.

The disputed phrase was 'a human'.

If it's not a human.... what is it??

A foetus. Potentially human.

Theres nothing potential about any stage of the human lifecycle they have been a human since conception.

Is that science or Catholic theology?

I love the fact 'science' is invoked to exactly match what the church settled on, having allowed abortion for over a thousand years,  with zero backup.

This is why you list last year. Total gobbeldygook

You and Eamonn seem to be the only ones mentioning Catholicism
If your against anything they're for, at least admit to it.

Dont take my word on the science at all it pretty basic level stuff children learn about it at 3-6 years old, we havent even got into unique DNA or anything else.
But at least look into it yourself and be open minded to your opinion when exploring the facts.
Let the facts form your opinion not the other way around I mean that genuinely

Its quite the coincidence that the antis here are using theological phrases and passing them off as science and claiming unanimity.

Science is not even almost united and certainly not around your position derived from a middle eastern moral code.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml

Science is completely united that a foetus is a human (and BTW human life = human, there is no difference). Its science fact, not theory, not even consensus.... its science fact.

Not sure what the middle eastern moral code is your on about but trying to relate this debate to Catholicism is just a straw man

I mean a simple google search will show you that science is not untied on this

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

[t_mac]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

Does that exclude in the case of someone very young, the trauma of pregnancy and birth, the mental well being of the mother during and after the birth, the resentment that mother may feel towards the child which might as we have seen repeatedly on the news manifest itself in ugly forms, would you rather a child live, have a horrible few years and die in awful circumstances.  I am not a woman, I don't have sisters, but I have a mother, a wife and daughters, in a situation with a stable home and stable minds I think best endeavours would ensure any unplanned child is cared for and loved, but that is not the case in many many instances, I think each case is unique and, due to huge cuts, there little or no governmental support out there  so for me the best person to adjudge what is right for them is the mother and her wider support group, if such exists. 

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

Does that exclude in the case of someone very young, the trauma of pregnancy and birth, the mental well being of the mother during and after the birth, the resentment that mother may feel towards the child which might as we have seen repeatedly on the news manifest itself in ugly forms, would you rather a child live, have a horrible few years and die in awful circumstances.  I am not a woman, I don't have sisters, but I have a mother, a wife and daughters, in a situation with a stable home and stable minds I think best endeavours would ensure any unplanned child is cared for and loved, but that is not the case in many many instances, I think each case is unique and, due to huge cuts, there little or no governmental support out there  so for me the best person to adjudge what is right for them is the mother and her wider support group, if such exists.

You have not listed one reason that I would view as acceptable for having an abortion. You have listed tough scenarios.

.

[tonto1888]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

How many pregnancies were there?

[Rudi]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

[t_mac]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

Does that exclude in the case of someone very young, the trauma of pregnancy and birth, the mental well being of the mother during and after the birth, the resentment that mother may feel towards the child which might as we have seen repeatedly on the news manifest itself in ugly forms, would you rather a child live, have a horrible few years and die in awful circumstances.  I am not a woman, I don't have sisters, but I have a mother, a wife and daughters, in a situation with a stable home and stable minds I think best endeavours would ensure any unplanned child is cared for and loved, but that is not the case in many many instances, I think each case is unique and, due to huge cuts, there little or no governmental support out there  so for me the best person to adjudge what is right for them is the mother and her wider support group, if such exists.

You have not listed one reason that I would view as acceptable for having an abortion. You have listed tough scenarios.

.

I am not condoning abortion, and I have no desire, nor do I care, if I can't give you a view as to when abortion is acceptable.  I am merely stating that each circumstance is different and the final decision should be for the mother and her wider family / support network if she happens to have one.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

How many pregnancies were there?

657,076

1 out of every 3 wains was dumped in the bin.

On demand id say