MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[RedHand88]

Do you need someone to explain to you the scientific difference between a sperm cell and an unborn baby?

I think you need the explanation

Sperm - A single haploid set of chromosomes derived from father. Is not a human being.

Foetus - Developing/Developed organism where every cell is diploid and contains a full set of 23 human chromosonal pairs. Contains all the genetic information for personality, hair colour, height, predisposition for illness, intelligence etc.
By any scientific definition, is a human being.


To say a foetus is not a human life is to ignore basic biological science.

You are interchangeably using terms like human being and human life. Think about that

A human being is a human life. Do you disagree??

[Eamonnca1]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

[omaghjoe]

Whatever your views on the rights & wrongs of abortion, saying that it is not human life until it is born (and has a birth certificate) is stretching the narrative into the "mental as fcuk" realms.

The disputed phrase was 'a human'.

If it's not a human.... what is it??

A foetus. Potentially human.

Theres nothing potential about any stage of the human lifecycle they have been a human since conception.

Is that science or Catholic theology?

I love the fact 'science' is invoked to exactly match what the church settled on, having allowed abortion for over a thousand years,  with zero backup.

This is why you list last year. Total gobbeldygook

You and Eamonn seem to be the only ones mentioning Catholicism
If your against anything they're for, at least admit to it.

Dont take my word on the science at all it pretty basic level stuff children learn about it at 3-6 years old, we havent even got into unique DNA or anything else.
But at least look into it yourself and be open minded to your opinion when exploring the facts.
Let the facts form your opinion not the other way around I mean that genuinely

Its quite the coincidence that the antis here are using theological phrases and passing them off as science and claiming unanimity.

Science is not even almost united and certainly not around your position derived from a middle eastern moral code.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml

Science is completely united that a foetus is a human (and BTW human life = human, there is no difference). Its science fact, not theory, not even consensus.... its science fact.

Not sure what the middle eastern moral code is your on about but trying to relate this debate to Catholicism is just a straw man

[gallsman]

I find the prospect of abortion not only being legal but also normalised and socially acceptable as the death knell of any morality in society.

To see SF then parading this as some sort of victory is a major insult to a big base of their long term voting core.

Yeah, we should go back 50, or 30, or 20 years before society started this great moral decline.

Back when an oppressed woman would keep her f**king mouth shut and members of the church as society's moral guardian could rape kids to their hearts' content without having to worry about any consequences.

The good old days, eh?

[screenexile]

I find the prospect of abortion not only being legal but also normalised and socially acceptable as the death knell of any morality in society.

To see SF then parading this as some sort of victory is a major insult to a big base of their long term voting core.

It's good to see nobody is getting away with hyperbole on here anyway... what nonsense!!!

What do you mean by socially acceptable?? As if women in that situation feel it's ok to have an abortion and it's no big deal?

I've been following the debate on this for a long time and in countries that have had legal abortion for a lot longer than here and I've yet to hear a story where it hasn't been a difficult decision for the woman involved.

There may be anecdotal cases which I haven't seen but to pass this off as women having sex all over the place without protection and having a dozen abortions doesn't sound within the realms of possibility.

I actually agree about the celebrating I don't think it's a situation worth celebrating and having a party over but then I'm not a woman who has had her rights denied for such a long time!!

[omaghjoe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

[Baile Brigín 2]

Whatever your views on the rights & wrongs of abortion, saying that it is not human life until it is born (and has a birth certificate) is stretching the narrative into the "mental as fcuk" realms.

The disputed phrase was 'a human'.

If it's not a human.... what is it??

A foetus. Potentially human.

Theres nothing potential about any stage of the human lifecycle they have been a human since conception.

Is that science or Catholic theology?

I love the fact 'science' is invoked to exactly match what the church settled on, having allowed abortion for over a thousand years,  with zero backup.

This is why you list last year. Total gobbeldygook

You and Eamonn seem to be the only ones mentioning Catholicism
If your against anything they're for, at least admit to it.

Dont take my word on the science at all it pretty basic level stuff children learn about it at 3-6 years old, we havent even got into unique DNA or anything else.
But at least look into it yourself and be open minded to your opinion when exploring the facts.
Let the facts form your opinion not the other way around I mean that genuinely

Its quite the coincidence that the antis here are using theological phrases and passing them off as science and claiming unanimity.

Science is not even almost united and certainly not around your position derived from a middle eastern moral code.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml

Science is completely united that a foetus is a human (and BTW human life = human, there is no difference). Its science fact, not theory, not even consensus.... its science fact.

Not sure what the middle eastern moral code is your on about but trying to relate this debate to Catholicism is just a straw man

Science is not united on that you madman.

[Baile Brigín 2]

I find the prospect of abortion not only being legal but also normalised and socially acceptable as the death knell of any morality in society.

To see SF then parading this as some sort of victory is a major insult to a big base of their long term voting core.

May we remind ourselves that the church allowed abortion up until the 18th century. In fact one of St Brigids miracles was performing one. Odd that gets ignored

[omaghjoe]

Whatever your views on the rights & wrongs of abortion, saying that it is not human life until it is born (and has a birth certificate) is stretching the narrative into the "mental as fcuk" realms.

The disputed phrase was 'a human'.

If it's not a human.... what is it??

A foetus. Potentially human.

Theres nothing potential about any stage of the human lifecycle they have been a human since conception.

Is that science or Catholic theology?

I love the fact 'science' is invoked to exactly match what the church settled on, having allowed abortion for over a thousand years,  with zero backup.

This is why you list last year. Total gobbeldygook

You and Eamonn seem to be the only ones mentioning Catholicism
If your against anything they're for, at least admit to it.

Dont take my word on the science at all it pretty basic level stuff children learn about it at 3-6 years old, we havent even got into unique DNA or anything else.
But at least look into it yourself and be open minded to your opinion when exploring the facts.
Let the facts form your opinion not the other way around I mean that genuinely

Its quite the coincidence that the antis here are using theological phrases and passing them off as science and claiming unanimity.

Science is not even almost united and certainly not around your position derived from a middle eastern moral code.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml

Science is completely united that a foetus is a human (and BTW human life = human, there is no difference). Its science fact, not theory, not even consensus.... its science fact.

Not sure what the middle eastern moral code is your on about but trying to relate this debate to Catholicism is just a straw man

Science is not united on that you madman.

So where are these scientists  that dont believe a human is a human?

[Eamonnca1]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

[omaghjoe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

[TwoUpTwoDown]

At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?

[Milltown Row2]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

[screenexile]

On demand abortion... f**k sakes what's the point in debating that shit??

[Eamonnca1]

On demand abortion... f**k sakes what's the point in debating that shit??

Anyone who talks about "abortion on demand" is basically trying to make it sound like women just decide on a whim to get an abortion, as if it's as easy as choosing from a fast food menu.