Armagh v Derry - Ulster Final, 14th May, 2023 @ 4pm

[twohands!!!]

Do 2nd from group 1 play 3rd from group 2 etc or will there be another draw?

From the GAA website.. so no actual information on that

All-Ireland SFC knock-out stage

The four preliminary quarter-finals will consist of the second placed teams being at home to third place teams, subject to avoiding of repeat provincial final pairings and where possible repeat pairings from Round One.

That means there has to be a draw.

[illdecide]

Winning Ulster is def the way forward. Group 2 looks tough and wouldn't want Armagh in it for losing Ulster. Beat Derry and group 4 should be (on paper) be the easier draw.

[Wildweasel74]

3 teams go through in all, losing the Ulster final, you still be strong enough to get over Westmeath.

[Redhand Santa]

Come third and you could be playing away to Mayo or Roscommon and even if won that would be out in a quarter final the week after with no break.

[twohands!!!]

3 teams go through in all, losing the Ulster final, you still be strong enough to get over Westmeath.

3 teams from every group go through but 1 of those teams will be gone the following weekend and 1 the weekend after.
A team's chance of winning Sam is massively improved by topping their group.
Winning Sam becomes harder if you finish 2nd and a good bit harder if you finish 3rd.
Topping your group is harder if you are in the group with the strongest 2nd seed (which the loser of the Ulster final will be)

Ideally a first seed wants to be in a group with the weakest 2nd seed, the weakest 3rd seed and the weakest 4th seed.
Of these having the weakest 2nd seed is far more advantageous than having the weakest 4th seed.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/05/02/jim-mcguinness-derry-emerging-as-strongest-contenders-for-one-of-the-most-open-all-irelands-in-memory/
Against Fermanagh it was high balls in the square that caused them most problems, and Monaghan attacked that area at the weekend as well. Derry conceded a brace of goals in both of those Ulster games and that is something I'm sure Armagh will be targeting in the provincial final

[Captain Obvious]

Winning this Ulster final more important than ever now as they should win their group with Monaghan,Clare,Donegal.  Ulster final loser could well finish 3rd in the group which would then be away match against maybe Mayo and played a week before the All Ireland quarter final.

[tbrick18]

The manner in which Armagh beat Down should frighten this Derry team a bit. 4 goals. Gallagher might need to make some adjustments because if it becomes a scoring match Armagh have better quality up front.

At least it should be a much better quality game than last year's snooze-fest of a final!

Putting my doubts aside Ill go Derry by 2.

14 scores to 12, not that impressive.
2 of the goals were fortunate, one a mis hit shot that dropped short.
Ok, conditions were poor which would have affected both sets of forwards and the armagh defence shut down out, but remember down were missing a few from u20s as well.

I haven't seen anything from armagh this year to suggest they have better forwards or defence.
But I could be wrong.

What I think will happen is that armagh will be able to keep it tight by being overly physical. But I think, or maybe hope, well have too much for armagh in terms of players and tactics.

Fascinating post.
14 scores t0 12...not that impressive...Game was over 5 minutes into 2nd half.
2 of the goals were fortunate....a tactic Armagh used from minute 1  libg ball in, it only worked 4 times!!
Missing U20's...Down were physically not up to it to a man.. very much doubt u20's would have made adifference in that regard.
I'm only trying to point out that whilst Armagh were the better side, they didn't exactly blow Down out of the water. That's what I mean by "not that impressive". Yes they won and deservedley so on the day, but there was nothing in that game that you'd come away from saying that Armagh are an amazing side, especially given the fact Down are Div 3 and missing some first choice players.

"Haven't seen anything from Armagh... " How many times have you seen them play 70minutes this year?
Full 70 twice. Once against Tyrone and once against Down. I stand by my point that I haven't seen anything....but once again, doesn't mean they couldn't beat Derry. I'm only commenting on what I've seen. I'm struggling to see where the optimism is coming from for Armagh given the length of time McGeeney has been there and the fact they've just been relegated.

Where does this" overly physical " stuff come from?
Overly physical might be the wrong term. What I mean by that is that they are very highly conditioned and extremely fit and they play a very physical game. That can wear teams down. Armagh look bigger than Derry and I think this approach could work against Derry.

Which tactics were too much for the Dubs in the league  final.
FFS. The league final was a dead rubber. No-one cared. The team went on holidays the week leading into it and half of them only returned the night before the game. We were without McKaigue and Glass went off injured. That game will have no bearing on anything. We beat them in the league when it mattered and more importantly, we came from behind to win. That's progress and improvement. When did Armagh last beat Dublin in anything?

Derry may well beat us in the Ulster Final  but this myth of Gallagher the master tactician is wearing a bit thin.
A lot of people confusing their dislike of Gallagher on the side line to his tactical approach. His tactics are now being mirrored up and down the country. Galway are doing it. Tyrone tried to. I believe Armagh played ultra defensively in a few games this year. If he was such a poor tacticion, why are so many imitating his tactics? What are McGeeney's tactics? Does he have any outside of route one into the box? But once again, doesn't mean we're a shoe in to win.

Galway embarrassed Derry in Croke Park last year and the League Final showed nothing to suggest that any lessons were taken on board from that.
Catch a grip. We'd just won our first Ulster in over 2 decades. We'd come on in leaps and bounds and had 2 games in Croker. Galway fairly beat us on the day. IMO, partly due to fitness and partly due to the occassion getting to some of the players who didn't perform as well as they could have. They embarrassed us in the league, and if you look at how we played against them in the SF, we did much better. Again that's progress.

I've no issue with people thinking we won't win an AI, I don't see too many Derry people suggesting we are going to anyway.
Time will tell where we are at, but I do have to laugh when people come out with this talk about Armagh having better forwards and defence than Derry with nothing really to base that on.

[Armaghtothebone]

The manner in which Armagh beat Down should frighten this Derry team a bit. 4 goals. Gallagher might need to make some adjustments because if it becomes a scoring match Armagh have better quality up front.

At least it should be a much better quality game than last year's snooze-fest of a final!

Putting my doubts aside Ill go Derry by 2.

14 scores to 12, not that impressive.
2 of the goals were fortunate, one a mis hit shot that dropped short.
Ok, conditions were poor which would have affected both sets of forwards and the armagh defence shut down out, but remember down were missing a few from u20s as well.

I haven't seen anything from armagh this year to suggest they have better forwards or defence.
But I could be wrong.

What I think will happen is that armagh will be able to keep it tight by being overly physical. But I think, or maybe hope, well have too much for armagh in terms of players and tactics.

Fascinating post.
14 scores t0 12...not that impressive...Game was over 5 minutes into 2nd half.
2 of the goals were fortunate....a tactic Armagh used from minute 1  libg ball in, it only worked 4 times!!
Missing U20's...Down were physically not up to it to a man.. very much doubt u20's would have made adifference in that regard.
I'm only trying to point out that whilst Armagh were the better side, they didn't exactly blow Down out of the water. That's what I mean by "not that impressive". Yes they won and deservedley so on the day, but there was nothing in that game that you'd come away from saying that Armagh are an amazing side, especially given the fact Down are Div 3 and missing some first choice players.
Absolutely blew Down out of the water. Down fans leaving with 20 minutes to go. Ditto Cavan. Ditto Antrim.  All div. 3 teams and the results were what you would expect.

"Haven't seen anything from Armagh... " How many times have you seen them play 70minutes this year?
Full 70 twice. Once against Tyrone and once against Down. I stand by my point that I haven't seen anything....but once again, doesn't mean they couldn't beat Derry. I'm only commenting on what I've seen. I'm struggling to see where the optimism is coming from for Armagh given the length of time McGeeney has been there and the fact they've just been relegated.

Kerry are odds on to retain Sam. What has anybody seen from them this year?
We have been competitive in every game this year. Could and maybe should have won against Roscommon. Would have been lucky to do so against Kerry but any 1 point game has a multitude of what ifs.


Where does this" overly physical " stuff come from?
Overly physical might be the wrong term. What I mean by that is that they are very highly conditioned and extremely fit and they play a very physical game. That can wear teams down. Armagh look bigger than Derry and I think this approach could work against Derry.

Which tactics were too much for the Dubs in the league  final.
FFS. The league final was a dead rubber. No-one cared. The team went on holidays the week leading into it and half of them only returned the night before the game. We were without McKaigue and Glass went off injured. That game will have no bearing on anything. We beat them in the league when it mattered and more importantly, we came from behind to win. That's progress and improvement. When did Armagh last beat Dublin in anything?

Last year national league division 1...blew them away.

Derry may well beat us in the Ulster Final  but this myth of Gallagher the master tactician is wearing a bit thin.
A lot of people confusing their dislike of Gallagher on the side line to his tactical approach. His tactics are now being mirrored up and down the country. Galway are doing it. Tyrone tried to. I believe Armagh played ultra defensively in a few games this year. If he was such a poor tacticion, why are so many imitating his tactics? What are McGeeney's tactics? Does he have any outside of route one into the box? But once again, doesn't mean we're a shoe in to win.

Gallagher isn't doing anything that McAlinden and Canavan weren't doing 25 years ago.
McGuiness mproved it. Harte tweaked it.

Galway embarrassed Derry in Croke Park last year and the League Final showed nothing to suggest that any lessons were taken on board from that.
Catch a grip. We'd just won our first Ulster in over 2 decades. We'd come on in leaps and bounds and had 2 games in Croker. Galway fairly beat us on the day. IMO, partly due to fitness and partly due to the occassion getting to some of the players who didn't perform as well as they could have. They embarrassed us in the league, and if you look at how we played against them in the SF, we did much better. Again that's progress.

I've no issue with people thinking we won't win an AI, I don't see too many Derry people suggesting we are going to anyway.
Time will tell where we are at, but I do have to laugh when people come out with this talk about Armagh having better forwards and defence than Derry with nothing really to base that on.

[markl121]

Tickets only going to clubs and season tickets. Only going on general sale if any are returned from clubs 

[tonto1888]

The manner in which Armagh beat Down should frighten this Derry team a bit. 4 goals. Gallagher might need to make some adjustments because if it becomes a scoring match Armagh have better quality up front.

At least it should be a much better quality game than last year's snooze-fest of a final!

Putting my doubts aside Ill go Derry by 2.

14 scores to 12, not that impressive.
2 of the goals were fortunate, one a mis hit shot that dropped short.
Ok, conditions were poor which would have affected both sets of forwards and the armagh defence shut down out, but remember down were missing a few from u20s as well.

I haven't seen anything from armagh this year to suggest they have better forwards or defence.
But I could be wrong.

What I think will happen is that armagh will be able to keep it tight by being overly physical. But I think, or maybe hope, well have too much for armagh in terms of players and tactics.

Fascinating post.
14 scores t0 12...not that impressive...Game was over 5 minutes into 2nd half.
2 of the goals were fortunate....a tactic Armagh used from minute 1  libg ball in, it only worked 4 times!!
Missing U20's...Down were physically not up to it to a man.. very much doubt u20's would have made adifference in that regard.
I'm only trying to point out that whilst Armagh were the better side, they didn't exactly blow Down out of the water. That's what I mean by "not that impressive". Yes they won and deservedley so on the day, but there was nothing in that game that you'd come away from saying that Armagh are an amazing side, especially given the fact Down are Div 3 and missing some first choice players.

"Haven't seen anything from Armagh... " How many times have you seen them play 70minutes this year?
Full 70 twice. Once against Tyrone and once against Down. I stand by my point that I haven't seen anything....but once again, doesn't mean they couldn't beat Derry. I'm only commenting on what I've seen. I'm struggling to see where the optimism is coming from for Armagh given the length of time McGeeney has been there and the fact they've just been relegated.

Where does this" overly physical " stuff come from?
Overly physical might be the wrong term. What I mean by that is that they are very highly conditioned and extremely fit and they play a very physical game. That can wear teams down. Armagh look bigger than Derry and I think this approach could work against Derry.

Which tactics were too much for the Dubs in the league  final.
FFS. The league final was a dead rubber. No-one cared. The team went on holidays the week leading into it and half of them only returned the night before the game. We were without McKaigue and Glass went off injured. That game will have no bearing on anything. We beat them in the league when it mattered and more importantly, we came from behind to win. That's progress and improvement. When did Armagh last beat Dublin in anything?

Derry may well beat us in the Ulster Final  but this myth of Gallagher the master tactician is wearing a bit thin.
A lot of people confusing their dislike of Gallagher on the side line to his tactical approach. His tactics are now being mirrored up and down the country. Galway are doing it. Tyrone tried to. I believe Armagh played ultra defensively in a few games this year. If he was such a poor tacticion, why are so many imitating his tactics? What are McGeeney's tactics? Does he have any outside of route one into the box? But once again, doesn't mean we're a shoe in to win.

Galway embarrassed Derry in Croke Park last year and the League Final showed nothing to suggest that any lessons were taken on board from that.
Catch a grip. We'd just won our first Ulster in over 2 decades. We'd come on in leaps and bounds and had 2 games in Croker. Galway fairly beat us on the day. IMO, partly due to fitness and partly due to the occassion getting to some of the players who didn't perform as well as they could have. They embarrassed us in the league, and if you look at how we played against them in the SF, we did much better. Again that's progress.

I've no issue with people thinking we won't win an AI, I don't see too many Derry people suggesting we are going to anyway.
Time will tell where we are at, but I do have to laugh when people come out with this talk about Armagh having better forwards and defence than Derry with nothing really to base that on.

I've never liked Gallagher form his playing days but he knows how to get this Derry team to play a brand of football which suits them and works for them. It isn't always the prettiest but I'm sure you or anyone else from Derry don't give much thought to that.

[Walter Cronc]

Tickets only going to clubs and season tickets. Only going on general sale if any are returned from clubs 

There certainly won't be any returned from the clubs. I've been told not all members guaranteed the usual 2 tickets. Clones capacity is 28k is it not? It was 36k in it's pomp but think a section of the hill had to be reduced.

[marty34]

Tickets only going to clubs and season tickets. Only going on general sale if any are returned from clubs 

There certainly won't be any returned from the clubs. I've been told not all members guaranteed the usual 2 tickets. Clones capacity is 28k is it not? It was 36k in it's pomp but think a section of the hill had to be reduced.

How much are the tickets?

[Walter Cronc]

Gerry Arthur's £30, seats behind goals £25 and terrace/hill £20

[Derryman forever]

The manner in which Armagh beat Down should frighten this Derry team a bit. 4 goals. Gallagher might need to make some adjustments because if it becomes a scoring match Armagh have better quality up front.

At least it should be a much better quality game than last year's snooze-fest of a final!

Putting my doubts aside Ill go Derry by 2.

14 scores to 12, not that impressive.
2 of the goals were fortunate, one a mis hit shot that dropped short.
Ok, conditions were poor which would have affected both sets of forwards and the armagh defence shut down out, but remember down were missing a few from u20s as well.

I haven't seen anything from armagh this year to suggest they have better forwards or defence.
But I could be wrong.

What I think will happen is that armagh will be able to keep it tight by being overly physical. But I think, or maybe hope, well have too much for armagh in terms of players and tactics.

Fascinating post.
14 scores t0 12...not that impressive...Game was over 5 minutes into 2nd half.
2 of the goals were fortunate....a tactic Armagh used from minute 1  libg ball in, it only worked 4 times!!
Missing U20's...Down were physically not up to it to a man.. very much doubt u20's would have made adifference in that regard.
I'm only trying to point out that whilst Armagh were the better side, they didn't exactly blow Down out of the water. That's what I mean by "not that impressive". Yes they won and deservedley so on the day, but there was nothing in that game that you'd come away from saying that Armagh are an amazing side, especially given the fact Down are Div 3 and missing some first choice players.
Absolutely blew Down out of the water. Down fans leaving with 20 minutes to go. Ditto Cavan. Ditto Antrim.  All div. 3 teams and the results were what you would expect.

"Haven't seen anything from Armagh... " How many times have you seen them play 70minutes this year?
Full 70 twice. Once against Tyrone and once against Down. I stand by my point that I haven't seen anything....but once again, doesn't mean they couldn't beat Derry. I'm only commenting on what I've seen. I'm struggling to see where the optimism is coming from for Armagh given the length of time McGeeney has been there and the fact they've just been relegated.

Kerry are odds on to retain Sam. What has anybody seen from them this year?
We have been competitive in every game this year. Could and maybe should have won against Roscommon. Would have been lucky to do so against Kerry but any 1 point game has a multitude of what ifs.


Where does this" overly physical " stuff come from?
Overly physical might be the wrong term. What I mean by that is that they are very highly conditioned and extremely fit and they play a very physical game. That can wear teams down. Armagh look bigger than Derry and I think this approach could work against Derry.

Which tactics were too much for the Dubs in the league  final.
FFS. The league final was a dead rubber. No-one cared. The team went on holidays the week leading into it and half of them only returned the night before the game. We were without McKaigue and Glass went off injured. That game will have no bearing on anything. We beat them in the league when it mattered and more importantly, we came from behind to win. That's progress and improvement. When did Armagh last beat Dublin in anything?

Last year national league division 1...blew them away.

Derry may well beat us in the Ulster Final  but this myth of Gallagher the master tactician is wearing a bit thin.
A lot of people confusing their dislike of Gallagher on the side line to his tactical approach. His tactics are now being mirrored up and down the country. Galway are doing it. Tyrone tried to. I believe Armagh played ultra defensively in a few games this year. If he was such a poor tacticion, why are so many imitating his tactics? What are McGeeney's tactics? Does he have any outside of route one into the box? But once again, doesn't mean we're a shoe in to win.

Gallagher isn't doing anything that McAlinden and Canavan weren't doing 25 years ago.
McGuiness mproved it. Harte tweaked it.

Galway embarrassed Derry in Croke Park last year and the League Final showed nothing to suggest that any lessons were taken on board from that.
Catch a grip. We'd just won our first Ulster in over 2 decades. We'd come on in leaps and bounds and had 2 games in Croker. Galway fairly beat us on the day. IMO, partly due to fitness and partly due to the occassion getting to some of the players who didn't perform as well as they could have. They embarrassed us in the league, and if you look at how we played against them in the SF, we did much better. Again that's progress.

I've no issue with people thinking we won't win an AI, I don't see too many Derry people suggesting we are going to anyway.
Time will tell where we are at, but I do have to laugh when people come out with this talk about Armagh having better forwards and defence than Derry with nothing really to base that on.

Mc alinden and Harte had 15 men in the opposition half?
I missed that now.