auschwitz day jews. v nazis

[macdanger2]

I presume there's a lot of wumming going on here? Serious lack of compassion if not

Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.

In the 8-11th centuries when the Jewish people were being persecuted in much of Christian Europe, the Moorish caliphate on the Iberian peninsula was considered a safe haven where Muslims, Jews and Christians were generally allowed to practice their faith in peace

[Asal Mor]

I went to Auschwitz and seemed to be one of the few who didn't find it disturbing. I thought it was fascinating. Like going to Kilmainham Jail. A trip to a dog pound or a psychiatric hospital, or just seeing someone in a bad way would affect me because the suffering is current. Auschwitz is just a place of historical interest. I felt like there were a lot of crocodile tears being shed there.

[tyssam5]

Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q.  Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?

Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.

I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.

The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.

I read a book 'IBM and the Holocaust' which gets into the industrialization and scale of the process (the need for the Business Machines (early computers) to quantify the numbers of Jews, their movement and destruction. Also a good example of the amount of money US companies made out of trading with the Nazis right up until about 1942 or so, you don't hear much from them about that part.

[Eamonnca1]

If Lawnseed is making the following point then I agree with it. The problem is not with the holocaust victims' views on Israel. The problem is Israel's cynical use of the holocaust as a cover for its every action.

The fact that someone tried to wipe out the entire Jewish race makes it sound plausible that someone would again. Hence whenever someone criticizes Israel, it's the easiest thing in the world for zionist propagandists to brand that person an anti-semite. Low-information observers (of which there's plenty in America, even especially in Congress) will swallow that line quickly since it's easy to follow and presses all the right emotional buttons.

Take the famous quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinijad where he was said to have wished to "wipe Israel off the map." Couple that with a dodgy nuclear program and you've got yourself an instant Darth Vader character that fits beautifully into the simple "good v evil" worldview that appeals to the right. Even more educated people like Christopher Hitchens fell for that one. Problem is, it's not exactly what he said. In English we have this expression "to wipe x off the map" meaning "to actually destroy x." But that's actually a metaphor, and this metaphor doesn't exist in Farsi. A more accurate translation of what he said would have been "we want to re-draw the map" or words to that effect. The Treaty of Versailes might have "wiped the Austro-Hungarian Empire off the map" but that doesn't mean the whole thing was annihilated.

You have to hand it to the zionists. They're masters of spin and know how to manipulate public opinion in all the right places. I will now stand by and prepare to be branded an anti-semite.

[omaghjoe]

If Lawnseed is making the following point then I agree with it. The problem is not with the holocaust victims' views on Israel. The problem is Israel's cynical use of the holocaust as a cover for its every action.

The fact that someone tried to wipe out the entire Jewish race makes it sound plausible that someone would again. Hence whenever someone criticizes Israel, it's the easiest thing in the world for zionist propagandists to brand that person an anti-semite. Low-information observers (of which there's plenty in America, even especially in Congress) will swallow that line quickly since it's easy to follow and presses all the right emotional buttons.

Take the famous quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinijad where he was said to have wished to "wipe Israel off the map." Couple that with a dodgy nuclear program and you've got yourself an instant Darth Vader character that fits beautifully into the simple "good v evil" worldview that appeals to the right. Even more educated people like Christopher Hitchens fell for that one. Problem is, it's not exactly what he said. In English we have this expression "to wipe x off the map" meaning "to actually destroy x." But that's actually a metaphor, and this metaphor doesn't exist in Farsi. A more accurate translation of what he said would have been "we want to re-draw the map" or words to that effect. The Treaty of Versailes might have "wiped the Austro-Hungarian Empire off the map" but that doesn't mean the whole thing was annihilated.

You have to hand it to the zionists. They're masters of spin and know how to manipulate public opinion in all the right places. I will now stand by and prepare to be branded an anti-semite.

Of course I would agree with that point Eamonn and so would most people but that wasn't his point or anything near to his point

And he hasn't given any indication either in his OP or subsequent posts that this is what his point was. You are trying to defend his post by supposing he meant something else and running with. There by distracting from his actual point.

You should agree or disagree and stop trying to lead him into you reasonable train of thought, as he clearly is not reasonable. And stop trying to distract by talking about Iran and Israel's portrayal in the media. The only way Iran is relevant to this conversation is in the context of the 1940s when the last shah was coming to power. The only way Isreal is relevant is...well they aren't relevant because they didnt even exist!

[omaghjoe]

Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q.  Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?

Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.

I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.

The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.

You have crossed the line into lala land now you do realize?

However you make a point and it is best be countered not by cat calling but by a reasonable approach

Really what you are taking about is how can you be sure of anything that occurred in the past. I will take you back to my first history lesson  at school when we learned not about Irish or European history but how it actually got it us, and that is sourcing and evidence.

Almost everything we see and read about in the past and present is secondary or tertiary evidence. That is evidence that is either using a witness account or is considered fact from the overwhelming evidence that backs it up.
The levels of evidence go like this:
an eye witness seeing something and writes about it (primary evidence - witness diary).....
this written text is then used in a more general analytic way to depict the event usually using multiple primary sources (secondary evidence - history book)....
that secondary source along with other secondary sources are then brought together to form the basis of fact (tertiary evidence - encyclopedia).

Now granted we can never be completely sure of anything that happened in the past, but our society uses this method of collecting evidence and analysis of this evidence using many different eye witness accounts along the analysis of many different historians to reduce the probability of events in the past being depicted inaccurately. Some events are disputed by different historians so these are not considered as fact rather as under dispute. However when there is enough evidence primary and secondary to support an event in the past it will be considered as fact and becomes tertiary evidence.

The Holocaust and WWII in general is one of the most studied events in history with acres of evidence collected from people that were actually there (survivors, guards, officers) and the events analysed and compiled by 1000s of historians. And one thing is for sure from it all and that is the death of approximately 6million people is considered fact by the historical community. Anything to the contrary is going against a massive amount of evidence and analysis of 1000s of historians.

On a side note I also think it a little strange that in this society (where you can seemingly say anything and defend its use by saying your were using your right of freedom of expression) that it is a crime for denying the Holocaust however that is nothing to base the fabrication of the Holocaust on.

To deny the Holocaust you would need to have pretty some good hardcore evidence as there is a mountain of it that says otherwise but I am all ears.....

[Hardy]

On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?

From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.

That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!

On Hitler and his extreme antisemitism, where did it stem from?

From being an evil, cruel and stupid piece of shit.

That's being a little simplistic, why vent all this mostly on the Jews? He put a huge bit of resource into it all the same!

I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.

Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.

Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.

I'm not denying he wasn't all of those things you mention.

Hitler had an agenda against the Jewish community because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin and dire poverty, he claimed they thrived while Germany starved. I'm sure one if a hundred reasons in his head.

Hitler didn't come up with that idea on his own. I think it was Hardy once posted an article that described how Jews moved into many communities in the Middle Ages and made money, much to the chagrin on the locals.

Not me, AFAIR.

[Old yeller]

Benny, can you answer this question please?
Q.  Do you believe that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War 2, carried out by the Nazi party, actually happened?

Am I a holocaust denier, you mean? If I say something that goes against everything you've heard, them I suppose I'll be thrown in with them, along with those who see Elvis everyday. That's usually how it goes.

I'd imagine there were Jews murdered, as were other groups, but not on the scale which history books tell us. As for the gas chamber thing, I'm up in the air about that one. I've read stuff about these camps being work camps, and a lot of people died from exhaustion, malnutrition etc rather than being gassed. That's not to say some weren't gassed. But I don't know. But the 6 million, I don't buy it.

The thing is, it's easy to laugh off any alternative as nuts, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since. Things like jailing deniers - you have to admit that sounds a bit fishy? History books, politicians, governments have lied to the people for centuries and still do. Just because it's in a book don't mean it's fact.

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in the Holocaust during World War II.[1][2] Holocaust denial includes any of the following claims: that the German Nazi government's Final Solution policy aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, and included no policy to exterminate Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[3][4][5]


Im not asking you if you are a holocaust denier, I'm stating a fact. You are a holocaust denier.

[Keyser soze]

Barmy f**kers.

[deiseach]

Study the history of the Jewish race, their traits, discrimination, Nazi Germany, and what has happened since.

[Asal Mor]

I don't remember Willy Wonka saying that. Must have been one of the deleted scenes.

[muppet]

I don't remember Willy Wonka saying that. Must have been one of the deleted scenes.

Willie Wonka denial!

[Eamonnca1]

I'm not terribly interested in what Lawnseed is getting at or what he's thinking. I prefer to play the ball rather than the man.

And my point about Iran is very relevant. My point is about misunderstandings and "lost in translation" moments that can have big consequences. My point is about how the holocaust is often hijacked by zionists as a means of undermining Iran and potentially creating more problems. Hardly a "distraction." We're supposed to have learned from the holocaust, not use it as a trump card in political games.

[Íseal agus crua isteach a]

I would highly recommend people watch this documentary, its six and half hours long though. We always hear the "allies" side of events  but what about the German side? Nice to hear the other side so we can add more perspective.
http://youtu.be/Vnu5uW9No8g

[ONeill]

Bad luck to all religious men, no matter what their cause.