Super 8s

[Dinny Breen]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

[RedHand88]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

I think the system is better for sure, but it could be improved by moving the week break to after the 3rd game, befire semi finals, and also by moving the neutral games to provincial grounds.
Dead rubber games are an inevitable side effect of any sort of league system unfortunately.

[RedHand88]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

Champions league, Europa league to name two.

[thewobbler]

I don't like the Super 8s. If anything I despise the concept.

But show me any knockout competition played over several months, in any sport, that doesn't involve luck of the draw. Even when seedlings are used there is always a group of death. Of last year's CL semifinalists, 2 of those were third seeds, and 1 was a second seed. It's virtually impossible to recognise which teams are on the rise and which teams are on the fall, in a seeding system.

So comments like "Cork only had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there" really don't help your argument at all. You might believe there is a perfectly balanced and fair knockout format out there. But if you do, you're  mistaken.

[Blowitupref]

What's more, of those games, Cork/Tyrone and Mayo/Meath were more or less do or die, lose and you couldn't make the All Ireland SF's. That's far better than what we had.

I think most would agree that Meath,Cork having dead rubbers to play after losing their do or die matches is not better than what we had.

Ronan McCarthy has already come out stating their game isn't a deadrubber as far as he's concerned. I'm certain the Meath management feel the same about Kerry coming to Navan in a game Kerry will want to win.

If you compare the old knockout QF format to the super 8's then the super 8's would be the preferred option of most I'd say.

Managers and players want more games and less training so it's the super 8's

Administrators want more revenue and a higher profile for the game so it's the super 8's

County boards like the home game element as do local businesses and getting rid of the Croke Park game will spread that business wider.

Fans get more games, more oppportunities to get kids to games which is what helps fuel the passion in the next generation.

Clubs won't get anymore games played if you went back to the QF's so I see little or no advantage to the old system over the current one. It's not perfect but it's still better IMO.

Ah come on now Zulu what do you expect a manager to say about these games? Leaving counties to hang on after they can't progress is not better no matter way you try to dress it up.  The players i'm sure would prefer to be back with their clubs than playing those dead rubber games this weekend.

[Redhand Santa]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

But sure under the old format Cork could still have got that easy draw and been in the quarter finals (and there was less complaints then). In that scenario they could potentially catch a provincial champion coming of the back of a 4 week break and be in a semi final after 1 decent game. At least this way they'd have to get through a potentially tough group.

I do think there should be an option to call of games in the last round if they mean nothing. But at the same time I think the people complaining about these matches are only looking a reason to complain about the format. If the match has nothing to do with you its pretty easy to ignore.

Last year I thought Kildare gave a good account of themselves in Kerry and looked to take it pretty serious and they had nothing to play for. That goes against some of the arguments above.

You might have less actual knockout games in the super 8 games but there is a lot more meaningful games. I'd classify all these games as being very important in this years series:

Tyrone v Roscommon
Tyrone v Cork
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Donegal v Kerry
Mayo v Meath
Donegal v Mayo
Meath v Kerry (albeit only for Kerry who need a big win to get top and probably avoid the Dubs)

All the games already were competitive for a large period of the match with the exception of Kerry v Mayo which was still a great occasion. In the old system you often had one decent quarter final and 3 hammerings. There was also years with double headers and crowds of under 30,000. The other big benefit of the new system has been bringing games around the country with benefits for towns and good atmospheres.

[Cunny Funt]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

But sure under the old format Cork could still have got that easy draw and been in the quarter finals (and there was less complaints then). In that scenario they could potentially catch a provincial champion coming of the back of a 4 week break and be in a semi final after 1 decent game. At least this way they'd have to get through a potentially tough group.

I do think there should be an option to call of games in the last round if they mean nothing. But at the same time I think the people complaining about these matches are only looking a reason to complain about the format. If the match has nothing to do with you its pretty easy to ignore.

Last year I thought Kildare gave a good account of themselves in Kerry and looked to take it pretty serious and they had nothing to play for. That goes against some of the arguments above.

You might have less actual knockout games in the super 8 games but there is a lot more meaningful games. I'd classify all these games as being very important in this years series:

Tyrone v Roscommon
Tyrone v Cork
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Donegal v Kerry
Mayo v Meath
Donegal v Mayo
Meath v Kerry (albeit only for Kerry who need a big win to get top and probably avoid the Dubs)

All the games already were competitive for a large period of the match with the exception of Kerry v Mayo which was still a great occasion. In the old system you often had one decent quarter final and 3 hammerings. There was also years with double headers and crowds of under 30,000. The other big benefit of the new system has been bringing games around the country with benefits for towns and good atmospheres.

Losing by 12 points in conceding 3-25 is giving a good account of oneself now? and that was Kerry's only win in the group last year.

[Redhand Santa]

Kildare were well on top in the first half but did fade away badly to be fair. It was a smaller defeat than one suffered in the quarter finals a few years ago.

[Zulu]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

I'd disagree with that. At county level the extra time with the players and the extra game is valuable. Besides, there's only one game this weekend that won't impact the SF situation so while we could around in circles on the Cork/Roscommon game none of the rest are pointless.

People saying it's only about money won't make it anymore true. It isn't and was never only about money though I'm sure the GAA appreciate it and so should any member of the GAA.

The season is like this because people wanted more games but retain the provincials. As for luck of the draw sure that's still there in the QF set up. The discussion isn't whether the super 8's are the best system the discussion is whether they are better than the only alternative we've been offered and, IMO, they are miles better.

[Zulu]

What's more, of those games, Cork/Tyrone and Mayo/Meath were more or less do or die, lose and you couldn't make the All Ireland SF's. That's far better than what we had.

I think most would agree that Meath,Cork having dead rubbers to play after losing their do or die matches is not better than what we had.

Ronan McCarthy has already come out stating their game isn't a deadrubber as far as he's concerned. I'm certain the Meath management feel the same about Kerry coming to Navan in a game Kerry will want to win.

If you compare the old knockout QF format to the super 8's then the super 8's would be the preferred option of most I'd say.

Managers and players want more games and less training so it's the super 8's

Administrators want more revenue and a higher profile for the game so it's the super 8's

County boards like the home game element as do local businesses and getting rid of the Croke Park game will spread that business wider.

Fans get more games, more oppportunities to get kids to games which is what helps fuel the passion in the next generation.

Clubs won't get anymore games played if you went back to the QF's so I see little or no advantage to the old system over the current one. It's not perfect but it's still better IMO.

Ah come on now Zulu what do you expect a manager to say about these games? Leaving counties to hang on after they can't progress is not better no matter way you try to dress it up.  The players i'm sure would prefer to be back with their clubs than playing those dead rubber games this weekend.

Again, I can accept you could be right but I don't accept it's better to go back to the knockout QF's to avoid 1 game out of all the games played in the super 8's being pointless. Basically, there are far more good things about the super 8's than bad when the only other thing on the table is the knockout QF.

[Blowitupref]

What's more, of those games, Cork/Tyrone and Mayo/Meath were more or less do or die, lose and you couldn't make the All Ireland SF's. That's far better than what we had.

I think most would agree that Meath,Cork having dead rubbers to play after losing their do or die matches is not better than what we had.

Ronan McCarthy has already come out stating their game isn't a deadrubber as far as he's concerned. I'm certain the Meath management feel the same about Kerry coming to Navan in a game Kerry will want to win.

If you compare the old knockout QF format to the super 8's then the super 8's would be the preferred option of most I'd say.

Managers and players want more games and less training so it's the super 8's

Administrators want more revenue and a higher profile for the game so it's the super 8's

County boards like the home game element as do local businesses and getting rid of the Croke Park game will spread that business wider.

Fans get more games, more oppportunities to get kids to games which is what helps fuel the passion in the next generation.

Clubs won't get anymore games played if you went back to the QF's so I see little or no advantage to the old system over the current one. It's not perfect but it's still better IMO.

Ah come on now Zulu what do you expect a manager to say about these games? Leaving counties to hang on after they can't progress is not better no matter way you try to dress it up.  The players i'm sure would prefer to be back with their clubs than playing those dead rubber games this weekend.

Again, I can accept you could be right but I don't accept it's better to go back to the knockout QF's to avoid 1 game out of all the games played in the super 8's being pointless. Basically, there are far more good things about the super 8's than bad when the only other thing on the table is the knockout QF.

Out of the 4 games this weekend we have one really important game that has a big interest for all and the reason for that importance is because it's old fashion knock out game.

If as you say players want more games then fine and have a group system for the qualifiers or provincial championship.

The last eight of any competition should be knock out and if needs be the provincial winners gets home advantage. Round 4 qualifier winners should get at least a two week break before playing a quarter final and a similar break to AI semi finals but we can't expect common sense to part of our championship nowadays can we?

[Zulu]

While that's true this year if Cork had beaten Tyrone then we'd have Tyrone at home against the Dubs having to win while Cork would have Roscommon at home having to win. Tyrone against Dublin in Omagh in a must win game would be a massive occasion. The super 8's can deliver more than they have so far and that's with a number of very good and one great game played already. That's good for the sport.

You can't have group games in the provincial championships IMO as they are uneven and I see little point in Leitrim, Waterford, Limerick, Wicklow, Antrim having to play, and lose, numerous games to get knocked out a championship. Perhaps groups could be used instead of qualifiers but map that out. No point saying what we have is no good unless you've something better. The qualifiers and knockout QF's isn't better IMO.

[Dinny Breen]

I think the value of it is a matter of opinion and I certainly think that management will like the extra two weeks with the players and the additional game. However, that's not really important in the context of the discussion. Are the super 8's better, even if there are some dead rubbers, than the old QF knockout? For me they are and I suspect all managers and players would agree.

Yea it's a bullshit opinion coming from managers, players aren't stupid and pretty much know they are no consequences coming from defeat or victory. The logical thing would have been to not train let the the players back to their clubs and meet up again the morning of the match and give fringe players some game time. My opinion is that the players think it's complete and utter bullshit having to play the game.

As for your question I think the Super 8s are a joke, Cork had to beat Limerick & Laois to get there. Meath beat Offaly, Laois & Clare to get there. It's nothing to do with meritocracy, a lucky draw is all you need. What other competition on the planet has knock-out then league then knockout to decide it's winners. It's not about fairness, it's not about meritocracy it's about money and money only.

Champions league, Europa league to name two.

Teams get seeded straight into the group stage do they not? So a different format. Any other competition?

[Rossfan]

Three  tweaks needed for next year
1- Phase 2 to have the 2 winners the first day play each other and the 2 losers likewise. It would help with the dead rubber problem.
2- No more 2 away games/Dublin 2 home games. Change the Rule from Croke Park round to " Suitable venue in a Neutral County".
3-  Break between Quarters and Semi Finals. Mad having a Semi Dinal 6 days after a Quarter Final game.

[Zulu]

I think they are good tweaks Rossfan.

For me, it's simple. Are the super 8's the best realistic format we have? We can post various formats here all we like but they aren't being considered so if the super 8's are scrapped after next year and we return to the qualifiers and knockout QF's will we have a better format? For me, we wouldn't.