Joe Brolly

[Il Bomber Destro]

Well Murphy was mentioned as being ahead of Cooper and he did nothing all year. I'm pretty sure Cooper has done pretty well in some Munster finals too. Cooper has done enough to be considered by many to be a great player but unlike most of the players you are comparing him with he is playing in an era of massed defence. Surely most of Mikey Sheehy or Pat Spillane's best games were against teams they were easily beating too? Is their standing in the game diminished?

McConville for example isn't next nor near the footballer that Cooper is and I'm sure he'd say that himself.

There are many forwards McConville is nowhere near as skilful as. On the other hand there are very few who could produce so regularly for club and county when the chips were down. The most influential footballer I ever saw play for my county.

When it comes to the best footballers I have ever seen Jack O'Shea and Anthony Tohill were great but my favourite by some distance was Maurice Fitzgerald. Cooper is a good player. Is he better than Canavan at his peak? I am not so sure.

There's shouldn't even be debate between Canavan and Cooper. Canavan was on another level entirely and it was fitting that in his last game before retirement in his mid 30s he was still being decisive in a closely fought All Ireland final.

[thewobbler]

f**k me this thread has descended into a steaming pile of unequivocally unfounded proclamation horseshit.

It is actually possible to acknowledge both Canavan and Cooper as all-time greats - they are not mutually exclusive claims - and it's also possible to concede that each of them has endured some disappointing and anonymous games in their star-studded careers, without weakening those claims.

[Il Bomber Destro]

f**k me this thread has descended into a steaming pile of unequivocally unfounded proclamation horseshit.

It is actually possible to acknowledge both Canavan and Cooper as all-time greats - they are not mutually exclusive claims - and it's also possible to concede that each of them has endured some disappointing and anonymous games in their star-studded careers, without weakening those claims.

But that is not true and completely endemic of the censure of any justified criticism of Cooper. Cooper is a long way down the pecking order of forwards over the past 15 years. The body of evidence is building against him the whole time. Yesterday was a further addition to a game where he really needed to step up and didn't.

He's meant to be an all time great, he's played on a great team surrounded by great players. For me there is an expectation that Cooper would step up and deliver big performances when Kerry needed him and he has consistently failed in that regard. That in itself is outside the profile of a great player.

[redhandefender]

Both are have been pure class as someone said above!

I can't remember a game where canavan was ever anonymous though! In saying that he played in a different era where he had a lot more space so don't think that should be the marker. Also gooch has come back from a brutal injury at a late stage in his career.

Both are class, no sure fire way of saying who was better so leave it at that

[thewobbler]

Bomber Destro, jesus you're wired up white and red to the hilt.

How many big games did Canavan win for Tyrone between 1997 and 2000, when he should have been at the absolute peak of his powers? The answer is none. You'll no doubt put this down to injuries (while ignoring Gooch's cruciate of 2013) and teammates (while ignoring that Kerry have been a patchwork quilt of team for the past few years, with a walking black card at full-back, no presence at 6, no passing ability in their half-forward line, and reliant on a group of old men to carry them through).

[Il Bomber Destro]

Both are have been pure class as someone said above!

I can't remember a game where canavan was ever anonymous though! In saying that he played in a different era where he had a lot more space so don't think that should be the marker. Also gooch has come back from a brutal injury at a late stage in his career.

Both are class, no sure fire way of saying who was better so leave it at that

I don't think it should be brushed off at all. I think there is a huge body of evidence now to question Cooper's standing in the game. As I said we're judging him on the profile of a great player. He might look a great player when they're steamrolling Mayo and Cork and other counties but in the close tight games where the great players really shine through he has been found wanting consistently.

You couldn't say that about Canavan, McManus, Bradley, McDonnell, McConville, Joyce etc who would deliver on a regular basis when it really mattered.

I also don't take on board the point about modern game, targeting etc. Cooper played on a brilliant Kerry side filled with brilliant players and many match winners. He would not have received anywhere near the level of attention guys like Murphy, Canavan, Bradley and McManus would have received in their careers. He was never double marked like those lads were in their county careers. For me he is an inferior player to all the ones I mentioned above and I think Declan O'Sullivan and Donaghy to name two Kerry forwards were more influential players for Kerry.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Bomber Destro, jesus you're wired up white and red to the hilt.

How many big games did Canavan win for Tyrone between 1997 and 2000, when he should have been at the absolute peak of his powers? The answer is none. You'll no doubt put this down to injuries (while ignoring Gooch's cruciate of 2013) and teammates (while ignoring that Kerry have been a patchwork quilt of team for the past few years, with a walking black card at full-back, no presence at 6, no passing ability in their half-forward line, and reliant on a group of old men to carry them through).

Canavan was a consistent big game player even in defeat. Tyrone were utterly reliant on him and the opposition knew it for the majority of his career.

[BennyHarp]

f**k me this thread has descended into a steaming pile of unequivocally unfounded proclamation horseshit.

It is actually possible to acknowledge both Canavan and Cooper as all-time greats - they are not mutually exclusive claims - and it's also possible to concede that each of them has endured some disappointing and anonymous games in their star-studded careers, without weakening those claims.

You'd expect nothing less of a thread with this title!

[Il Bomber Destro]

Anyone who puts Bradley in the same sentence as Cooper, Mc Conville or Mc Manus knows FA. Feel free to show us the big games Bradley delivered in, got all his main scores via the back door against rubbish teams.

What a completely ignorant and stupid comment. Bradley was outstanding for Derry on a consistent basis. One standout game was where he nearly beat Dublin on his own in an AI qf, one of the greatest individual displays I witnessed. Along with Muldoon he was also fantastic when Derry played Kerry in the 04 sf. Bradley didn't get too far with Derry as they just didn't have the players around him but he was an extraordinary talent.

Third all time top scorer in the Ulster Championship in a period where Ulster returned three different AI champions, another who were runners up and two other counties who reached a semi final.

[thewobbler]

Bomber Destro, jesus you're wired up white and red to the hilt.

How many big games did Canavan win for Tyrone between 1997 and 2000, when he should have been at the absolute peak of his powers? The answer is none. You'll no doubt put this down to injuries (while ignoring Gooch's cruciate of 2013) and teammates (while ignoring that Kerry have been a patchwork quilt of team for the past few years, with a walking black card at full-back, no presence at 6, no passing ability in their half-forward line, and reliant on a group of old men to carry them through).

Canavan was a consistent big game player even in defeat. Tyrone were utterly reliant on him and the opposition knew it for the majority of his career.

And he was consistently kept scoreless by McKeever, Lockhart and McNulty in these big games you keep talking about. Don't confuse being a reliable free-taker with being an influence on open play.

Look, I'm not denigrating Canavan at all - he's a genuine all-time great - but you seem hell bent on rewriting history to the tune that when it matters Canavan always delivered and Gooch always failed to. Which is utter nonsense, and suggests that due to your blinkered love of all things Tyrone, you are incapable of objective assessment.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Bomber Destro, jesus you're wired up white and red to the hilt.

How many big games did Canavan win for Tyrone between 1997 and 2000, when he should have been at the absolute peak of his powers? The answer is none. You'll no doubt put this down to injuries (while ignoring Gooch's cruciate of 2013) and teammates (while ignoring that Kerry have been a patchwork quilt of team for the past few years, with a walking black card at full-back, no presence at 6, no passing ability in their half-forward line, and reliant on a group of old men to carry them through).

Canavan was a consistent big game player even in defeat. Tyrone were utterly reliant on him and the opposition knew it for the majority of his career.

And he was consistently kept scoreless by McKeever, Lockhart and McNulty in these big games you keep talking about. Don't confuse being a reliable free-taker with being an influence on open play.

Look, I'm not denigrating Canavan at all - he's a genuine all-time great - but you seem hell bent on rewriting history to the tune that when it matters Canavan always delivered and Gooch always failed to. Which is utter nonsense, and suggests that due to your blinkered love of all things Tyrone, you are incapable of objective assessment.

Prove it.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Joe Brolly is a bully.  Even if Colm Cooper wasn't a great player there is no need make it personal and single out 1 player when Kerry have a bad game.  You wouldn't see it happen in the hurling championship.

For what it's worth.

Dr Crokes lost an All Ireland replay to Crossmaglen and were favourites to win the All Ireland when Cooper done his cruciate against Castlebar Mitchels in the Semi final.  He has 4 All Irelands, 4 National Leagues, 8 All Stars.  Kerry have contested the All Ireland final in all but 4 years since he made his debut in 2002.  He is 32 now and still perhaps not quite as good as he was before he did his cruciate.  Brolly has 1 All Ireland and was known for having a bit yellow streak when he played.

So Cooper is above criticism?

[westbound]

Is this thread going around in circles?

And what's it got to do with Joe brolly?

[redhandefender]

Just to bring it back to topic, Joe Brolly is a k**b!

[screenexile]

Just to bring it back to topic, Joe Brolly is a k**b!

You're a f**king knob!!