Joe Brolly

[lenny]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

Come on, he's talked about as one of the best players to ever play the game so he should be judged in those parameters.

All good players are targeted, it's always been the case. Cooper is nothing new there and it's also far more difficult (and naive) to target him when Kerry have such an abundance of other talented players. I'd actually love to see how Cooper would handled the attention someone like Paddy Bradley, Peter Canavan or Conor McManus had/have in their county careers.

What Cooper has returned in those big games does not cut it for a player with his exalted reputation. Darragh O'Se and Donaghy were too players in particular who I felt were superb for Kerry when they needed big performances at critical junctures, I've always felt Cooper has a yellow streak in him when the going gets tough and today was another case of that.

So we should've just left it as we'll agree to disagree like a said a few posts back?

If Gooch is talked about as an all time great he should be judged on the type of standards you'd expect of an all time great. For me he falls far behind a fair few other forwards of his generation.

I'd have guys like Canavan, Joyce, McDonnell, Bradley etc. He's played on a great team all his career, he's never been weighed down with the burden of carrying teams like the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Bradley or McManus have been at varying stages of their careers.

Peter canavan is widely regarded as a great but he got destroyed almost every time by kieran mckeever.

[God14]

Really? 1995? 1996?

[Il Bomber Destro]

In addition to some of the points already made IMO the Gooch also failed to produce the goods against Cross in a few club games. James Morgan completely nullified him in 1 particular game that springs to mind. It is easy to produce for Kerry as they coast through 75% of their games against crap teams. A player should always be judged on what he does when his team is in trouble, not when they are cruising!. IMO, he is not even in discussions for all time great status. Not in same league as Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell and a few others.

+1 to all this. What irks me is the censure around any sort of reasonable criticism of Cooper.

[Wildweasel74]

Canavan got the better of McKeever in 1992 league final and in 1996 when Mckeever was working in Dublin and not get in the training, 95 McKeever marked him rightly and again this is back in the day when defenders marked 1 on 1, any other time McKeever and Lockhart were well fit for him

[Il Bomber Destro]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

Come on, he's talked about as one of the best players to ever play the game so he should be judged in those parameters.

All good players are targeted, it's always been the case. Cooper is nothing new there and it's also far more difficult (and naive) to target him when Kerry have such an abundance of other talented players. I'd actually love to see how Cooper would handled the attention someone like Paddy Bradley, Peter Canavan or Conor McManus had/have in their county careers.

What Cooper has returned in those big games does not cut it for a player with his exalted reputation. Darragh O'Se and Donaghy were too players in particular who I felt were superb for Kerry when they needed big performances at critical junctures, I've always felt Cooper has a yellow streak in him when the going gets tough and today was another case of that.

So we should've just left it as we'll agree to disagree like a said a few posts back?

If Gooch is talked about as an all time great he should be judged on the type of standards you'd expect of an all time great. For me he falls far behind a fair few other forwards of his generation.

I'd have guys like Canavan, Joyce, McDonnell, Bradley etc. He's played on a great team all his career, he's never been weighed down with the burden of carrying teams like the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Bradley or McManus have been at varying stages of their careers.

Peter canavan is widely regarded as a great but he got destroyed almost every time by kieran mckeever.

Canavan was a player who consistently produced the goods in big games when it really mattered and he did it for a lot of his career where he was imperative to the team. Today was yet another day when Kerry badly needed something from Cooper but he didn't deliver.

[Zulu]

In addition to some of the points already made IMO the Gooch also failed to produce the goods against Cross in a few club games. James Morgan completely nullified him in 1 particular game that springs to mind. It is easy to produce for Kerry as they coast through 75% of their games against crap teams. A player should always be judged on what he does when his team is in trouble, not when they are cruising!. IMO, he is not even in discussions for all time great status. Not in same league as Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell and a few others.

+1 to all this. What irks me is the censure around any sort of reasonable criticism of Cooper.

Did any of those players ever play a bad game? Did they ever fail to produce in big games? Did most of those players primarily play in an era when you simply put your best defender on their best forward rather than have 14 men in your own half?

[HiMucker]

Watched the All Ireland on sky for the first time....Don'k know or care what Joe had to give out about today.
Looking forward to many more summers not having to listen to his self publicising bullshit 

+1 done the same.  Even sacrificed the HD

[Il Bomber Destro]

In addition to some of the points already made IMO the Gooch also failed to produce the goods against Cross in a few club games. James Morgan completely nullified him in 1 particular game that springs to mind. It is easy to produce for Kerry as they coast through 75% of their games against crap teams. A player should always be judged on what he does when his team is in trouble, not when they are cruising!. IMO, he is not even in discussions for all time great status. Not in same league as Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell and a few others.

+1 to all this. What irks me is the censure around any sort of reasonable criticism of Cooper.

Did any of those players ever play a bad game? Did they ever fail to produce in big games? Did most of those players primarily play in an era when you simply put your best defender on their best forward rather than have 14 men in your own half?

Of course they did but they also performed big time when the pressure and onus was really on. How many times can we say that about Cooper? Would Cooper be capable of producing a performance like Conor McManus did in the Ulster final this year? I highly doubt it.

[imtommygunn]

He probably would. He's a league above some of those players you mentioned.

[lenny]

In addition to some of the points already made IMO the Gooch also failed to produce the goods against Cross in a few club games. James Morgan completely nullified him in 1 particular game that springs to mind. It is easy to produce for Kerry as they coast through 75% of their games against crap teams. A player should always be judged on what he does when his team is in trouble, not when they are cruising!. IMO, he is not even in discussions for all time great status. Not in same league as Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell and a few others.

+1 to all this. What irks me is the censure around any sort of reasonable criticism of Cooper.

Did any of those players ever play a bad game? Did they ever fail to produce in big games? Did most of those players primarily play in an era when you simply put your best defender on their best forward rather than have 14 men in your own half?

Of course they did but they also performed big time when the pressure and onus was really on. How many times can we say that about Cooper? Would Cooper be capable of producing a performance like Conor McManus did in the Ulster final this year? I highly doubt it.

Hes miles better than mcmanus. Youre an idiot.

[Zulu]

Well Murphy was mentioned as being ahead of Cooper and he did nothing all year. I'm pretty sure Cooper has done pretty well in some Munster finals too. Cooper has done enough to be considered by many to be a great player but unlike most of the players you are comparing him with he is playing in an era of massed defence. Surely most of Mikey Sheehy or Pat Spillane's best games were against teams they were easily beating too? Is their standing in the game diminished?

McConville for example isn't next nor near the footballer that Cooper is and I'm sure he'd say that himself.

[imtommygunn]

Murphy played very well in parts though went missing here and there.

Cooper miles ahead of half that list. Wind up or anti kerry grudge.

[Zulu]

Dunno imtommygunn, thought Murphy was very poor this year but either way Cooper deserves his standing in the game. We can debate his place amongst the greats all day long but he deserves to be in the discussion unlike a good few of the players who are being claimed to be better.

[rrhf]

You could count on 1 hand the amount of bad games canavan had in his career. Cooper has illuminated many games and is one of the most skillful players of the modern era. Why he doesn't shoot more is beyond me but on form he is a pleasure to watch.

[Il Bomber Destro]

He probably would. He's a league above some of those players you mentioned.

He's actually not.