AIF 2021 -- Maigh Eo vs Tír Eoghain

[Maroon Manc]

Before the start of the year if you'd said that Mayo starting 15 would go into the final as favourites people from Mayo would have thought you were crazy but that was the reality. In fairness everyone I met from either county was very confident and expected to win.

Both teams created a similar amount of chances but Tyrone certainly have more forwards who carry more of a threat inside the 45. 0-1 between 4 forwards is not good enough.

I reckon Horan would tell you his midfield pairing will score more then any other but they were dreadful, Loftus in particular missed so many chances that you'd expect him to score.

Mayo give away too many goal chances, that's always been the case under Horan and that's not going to change now. Their always going to have to hit around 20 points to win an All Ireland with the Dublin game been an anomaly. Talent wise their not that far away but you'd have to wonder what lasting affects this defeat will have.

Credit to Tyrone, they played at the level I expected them too and were deserved winners. Players like McGeary, Meyler and McCurry have really surprised me this year; Miles  better players then I thought they were.

[sid waddell]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

It's a fatalism complex, what can go wrong will go wrong, it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. Winning All-Irelands is put on such a pedestal that it becomes paralysing.

Armagh 1999-2006 had it too. If you go through those years, it showed up again and again.

1999, they froze against Meath when in a great position and collapsed.

2000, they gave away a stupid free to cost themselves a win in the drawn semi-final against Kerry. In the replay, they fell back into defence when in a great position.

2001, they had a systematic underperformance against Galway, somehow got themselves level, and then threw it away by stupidly getting blocked down.

In 2002 they won in spite of themselves. They collapsed against Sligo and should have been buried, even in the replay against Sligo they fell over the line. In the semi against Dublin they were the better team but did exactly what they did against Kerry in 2000, gave away a soft free to equalise the game right at the end - but whereas Kerry had Maurice Fitzgerald, Dublin had Ray Cosgrove.

In the final they were the better team, but still missed a penalty and gave Kerry the chance to get a draw out of it at the end. They hung on in spite of themselves.

2002 should have been the end of Armagh's fatalism complex, but it wasn't.

In 2003 they systematically underperformed in the final.

In 2004 they lost a game they should have been winning 100 times out of 100 with a systematic underperformance.

In 2005 they let it slip against Tyrone from a winning position.

In 2006 they handed Kerry the clinching goal in a game they were still very much in, with a terrible defensive mistake.

[Armagh18]

O'Connor was an absolutely huge loss to Mayo - it cannot be under estimated.

Mayo needed a leader up front - someone who could bring the game to us with an element of nastiness as well as guaranteed scores.

I would hazard to say our defenders couldnt believe how toothless the Mayo attack was on Saturday

Agreed. Conroy seemed to have the beating of Hampsey everytime but it largely just didn't happen for him. If they get O'Connor and McLaughlin back for next year and get O'Shea off the pitch they'll have as good a chance as anyone next year. O'Connor playing instead of O'Shea on Saturday and Mayo would have put up a far better score although whether Tyrone would have matched that we'll never know. 

[Armagh18]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

It's a fatalism complex, what can go wrong will go wrong, it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. Winning All-Irelands is put on such a pedestal that it becomes paralysing.

Armagh 1999-2006 had it too. If you go through those years, it showed up again and again.

1999, they froze against Meath when in a great position and collapsed.

2000, they gave away a stupid free to cost themselves a win in the drawn semi-final against Kerry. In the replay, they fell back into defence when in a great position.

2001, they had a systematic underperformance against Galway, somehow got themselves level, and then threw it away by stupidly getting blocked down.

In 2002 they won in spite of themselves. They collapsed against Sligo and should have been buried, even in the replay against Sligo they fell over the line. In the semi against Dublin they were the better team but did exactly what they did against Kerry in 2000, gave away a soft free to equalise the game right at the end - but whereas Kerry had Maurice Fitzgerald, Dublin had Ray Cosgrove.

In the final they were the better team, but still missed a penalty and gave Kerry the chance to get a draw out of it at the end. They hung on in spite of themselves.

2002 should have been the end of Armagh's fatalism complex, but it wasn't.

In 2003 they systematically underperformed in the final.

In 2004 they lost a game they should have been winning 100 times out of 100 with a systematic underperformance.

In 2005 they let it slip against Tyrone from a winning position.

In 2006 they handed Kerry the clinching goal in a game they were still very much in, with a terrible defensive mistake.

Agreed. Thanks for digging up old scars ffs. The only consolation is that we did get that one win. Should have had at the very least one more, if not another 2 or 3.

[CK_Redhand]

A few comments mentioning Tyrone players being better than people thought. I think a lot of this is down to management trust. In the past mccurry would have been off after 20 minutes against Kerry. Management now know to stick with the plan and the players will deliver. Even in the final mckenna was playing poorly but produced a moment of magic for the goal.  Also decision making has improved.  Maybe because they have lost a bit of fear, not looking over their shoulder at the line to see who is warming up to replace them.

[Maroon Manc]

A few comments mentioning Tyrone players being better than people thought. I think a lot of this is down to management trust. In the past mccurry would have been off after 20 minutes against Kerry. Management now know to stick with the plan and the players will deliver. Even in the final mckenna was playing poorly but produced a moment of magic for the goal.  Also decision making has improved.  Maybe because they have lost a bit of fear, not looking over their shoulder at the line to see who is warming up to replace them.

McKenna apart from the goal was woeful on the ball, got so much wrong. Would imagine his ability to run and the hope and that he'd produce one moment of magic kept him on which turned to be the case.

Spot on regarding the management, had full belief in the plan and never waivered from it. They knew all day long their was a goal on from the long kickouts. They've done an outstanding job that nobody saw coming.

[brokencrossbar1]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

It's a fatalism complex, what can go wrong will go wrong, it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. Winning All-Irelands is put on such a pedestal that it becomes paralysing.

Armagh 1999-2006 had it too. If you go through those years, it showed up again and again.

1999, they froze against Meath when in a great position and collapsed.

2000, they gave away a stupid free to cost themselves a win in the drawn semi-final against Kerry. In the replay, they fell back into defence when in a great position.

2001, they had a systematic underperformance against Galway, somehow got themselves level, and then threw it away by stupidly getting blocked down.

In 2002 they won in spite of themselves. They collapsed against Sligo and should have been buried, even in the replay against Sligo they fell over the line. In the semi against Dublin they were the better team but did exactly what they did against Kerry in 2000, gave away a soft free to equalise the game right at the end - but whereas Kerry had Maurice Fitzgerald, Dublin had Ray Cosgrove.

In the final they were the better team, but still missed a penalty and gave Kerry the chance to get a draw out of it at the end. They hung on in spite of themselves.

2002 should have been the end of Armagh's fatalism complex, but it wasn't.

In 2003 they systematically underperformed in the final.

In 2004 they lost a game they should have been winning 100 times out of 100 with a systematic underperformance.

In 2005 they let it slip against Tyrone from a winning position.

In 2006 they handed Kerry the clinching goal in a game they were still very much in, with a terrible defensive mistake.

Agreed. Thanks for digging up old scars ffs. The only consolation is that we did get that one win. Should have had at the very least one more, if not another 2 or 3.

I also agree. If Conor Gormley doesn't make that block in 2003 and we win back to back then we win another 2-3. Gormley makes the block, Tyrone win and a beast is created.

[seafoid]

Various bits from the Irish Times

Ten of the players Tyrone used against Mayo had been beaten out the gate by Dublin in 2018. Back then, it looked like Jim Gavin was building a forever empire and the idea that Tyrone – risk-averse, massed defence, one-man-up Tyrone – would be the ones to finally bring the Dubs' All-Ireland streak to an end would have seemed preposterous. 
But they did it. 

"The question I would say is: why do you have to wait a year or two," explained Dooher before the team departed Croke Park on Saturday evening. 
"You only get one chance and you make the most of it whenever you can. Let's face it, we had the rub of the green at times and we needed it. Particularly the semi-final, when we used up a right bit of luck. And today, too, we used up a right bit of it. But the way we look at it is: don't wait until tomorrow. You know, do what you can today. And don't put off anything that you can do today. And them boys did that. You never know. You might never be back again in an All-Ireland final. And you have to grasp that opportunity." 

 

Harte is a nephew of Mickey Harte, the manager of Tyrone's first three All-Ireland wins. He is also a son-in-law of Peter Canavan, the county's most celebrated Gaelic football player. He is immersed in a culture of All-Ireland winning know-how. 

"No goals, no goals! That was the big thing," says Logan when asked what went through his mind as the clock ran down. 

"There does come a tipping point in the line when you think 'you know what, we might be home,' but then you're even afraid to think that, because we've all had our shocks in football matches. So no goals was the big thing, and just who was out on their feet, and had we anybody left to put in. 
"So essentially that, and the same principles apply to all matches." 

Tyrone stretched their lead in every quarter. They had greater composure on the ball and without it. 

Mayo had possession and won the battle of the restarts - as did Kerry in the semi-final - but they struggled to execute what chances they created. In fact they did at times what former captain Andy Moran had warned about, running the ball at the Tyrone defence and into trouble. 

Aidan O'Shea saw a good bit of ball but often didn't have the option of support attackers running off him and was fairly quickly shut down and rendered ineffective. The great Mayo conundrum of how best to deploy him isn't getting any easier to solve. 

 

Tyrone stretched their lead in every quarter. They had greater composure on the ball and without it. 

Mayo had possession and won the battle of the restarts - as did Kerry in the semi-final - but they struggled to execute what chances they created. In fact they did at times what former captain Andy Moran had warned about, running the ball at the Tyrone defence and into trouble. 

 

Mayo had nearly the same number of turnovers and some smart tackling and dispossessions - Pádraig O'Hora's hand in on Mattie Donnelly 10 minutes into the second half for instance - but they had nothing like the same intensity on the ball. 

Tyrone's tackle count dwarfed their opponent's - by more than two to one or according to Sky Sports statistics three to one. 

[brokencrossbar1]

Horan should watch Groundhog day

https://youtu.be/GncQtURdcE4

I would be pissed off to be passed out on the roll of honour.
Tyrone didn't have an arse on their trousers in 1951
Now they are purring.

I wonder how many AI's Kerry and Dublin would have if 50%+ of their population was of an ingrained anti-Irish disposition and therefore not taking part in games, while the GAA fraternity of the day were on the defensive against a brutal regime intent on wiping out any semblance of Irish culture.

In another era Padraig Hampsey and any number of lads could have been caught up in the horrors of conflict and war. It makes the team getting to the 86 final so remarkable, Down's achievements of the 60s were off the scale in this context, and Crossmaglen too in the 90s noughties.

Continued political change in the north and integration of the wider populous in playing the games will only strengthen Tyrone's position going forward; 9/1 with the bookies to retain the title next year suggests they see this title as a flash in the pan, I'd suggest its the emerging of a powerhouse. At the present time Tyrone should be looking at 2-3 AI's per decade. Basically replicate Mayo's frequency of getting to the final but not shit the bed every time.

Nice to be team of the decade 2 out of 3 so far since the turn of the millennium

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/goalposts-smeared-with-excrement-in-newtownabbey-before-young-gaa-players-due-on-the-pitch-40842959.html

That's the club I'm involved with these days. Had stuff stolen over the summer and put on bonfires too in loyalist areas. The problems still exist and I know from direct experience that it is institutional on so many levels but we still go out on the pitch,  we still fill the fields with kids at the weekend, we keep the heart still beating and we will continue to. This club is in the heartland of a loyalist are that had to close down due to the Troubles. I was a very proud (and a very sore) man when we put a team out for the championship this year for the first time in 50 odd years.

[yellowcard]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

Interesting but also surely that is too simplistic given that at that point in time Mayo would not have had anywhere near the same level of fatalism attached to them.. How did that even manifest itself, did the Mayo player break down after being sledged about losing All Ireland finals?

I don't believe in any of the curse nonsense. When that last sole survivor passes away Mayo will still have to overcome the mental barrier of winning an AI final.

[brokencrossbar1]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

Interesting but also surely that is too simplistic given that at that point in time Mayo would not have had anywhere near the same level of fatalism attached to them.. How did that even manifest itself, did the Mayo player break down after being sledged about losing All Ireland finals?

I don't believe in any of the curse nonsense. When that last sole survivor passes away Mayo will still have to overcome the mental barrier of winning an AI final.

Said player had been dominating the kick outs and play in general. He reacted to what was said to him and lost his focus on the game and we went on to push on for the win. At that time they had been in a few AIs and had shit themselves when they should have won. There was the talk at the time about the curse and whether or not they were doomed. He choked and his team choked.

[yellowcard]

I genuinely believe that the 'curse' has actually become a curse. The more it is spoken about, coupled with the more often Mayo lose, the more in the minds of people the curse becomes a reality. There is a real subconscious belief in my opinion that they cannot win and this is a real mental block.

Every player in any sport at the top level has an ego. Some wear pinks boots they're that confident, some express it through bleached hair, some just get on with the business of the game and point to the scoreboard when the verbals start. I believe that this 'ego' within the Mayo set up is a false ego. Mentally they think they have it in the, but when push comes to shove they really don't. I often tell a story of an AI club final I played in which we won but never should have.  With 10 minutes to go a comment was made to a Mayo legend about Mayo teams crumbling in AI final and you could actually see him physically shrinking in front of you. That's deep seated. That was over 20 years ago. No amount of sports psychologists will break that. It's there forever until that man dies and then there honestly will be a flood of media coverage of it and it will be like a weight off peoples shoulders. I know it isn't real, I know it isn't logical but the mind is not fully understood and if you hear something often enough and repeat it often enough it becomes 'real'.

Interesting but also surely that is too simplistic given that at that point in time Mayo would not have had anywhere near the same level of fatalism attached to them.. How did that even manifest itself, did the Mayo player break down after being sledged about losing All Ireland finals?

I don't believe in any of the curse nonsense. When that last sole survivor passes away Mayo will still have to overcome the mental barrier of winning an AI final.

Said player had been dominating the kick outs and play in general. He reacted to what was said to him and lost his focus on the game and we went on to push on for the win. At that time they had been in a few AIs and had shit themselves when they should have won. There was the talk at the time about the curse and whether or not they were doomed. He choked and his team choked.

I'm sure there is a certain psychology involved at this stage, the mental baggage is too much for there not to be some level of doubt. Conversely for the opposition there must be some level of psychological boost in facing Mayo in an AI final knowing their history. But a curse, no I don't buy into that. They will still have to overcome the same mental barrier after the last remaining survivor from 1951 passes away. 

[Maroon Manc]

The curse is nonsense but losing 11 finals in 30 years is the real curse and it weighs down heavily on everyone in Mayo, its not going to be easy to shake off. Think they've always taken something from losing to Dublin as they arguably the greatest team of all time but losing to Tyrone is different. There's no positives at all.

[brokencrossbar1]

Not quoting @yellowcard as the thing will get too long but I agree with you to a point. I don't believe there is a 'curse' but I believe that subconsciously the fatalism of it all plays on the players minds and the supporters. Once the man dies this 'curse' is gone. There is no 'excuse' then and the media will stop talking about it. The real 'curse' then needs to be broken, the curse of not truly believing you are good enough. That's the curse of losing so many finals. That will be very hard to overcome

[Christmas Lights]

Was this against Ballina BC?