http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/splitting-into-two-groups-of-16-is-inevitable-for-football-creedon-35735543.html
Splitting Dublin in 2 would soon stop the blue roar!
Nope.
We either do it in 'threes', i.e. senior, intermediate & junior, or we use the existing league structure (4 divisions).
If there are only two tiers, that still leaves a lot of teams with nothing to play for.
I don't know why people are insisting on reinventing the wheel when we have structures that work perfectly well elsewhere, we just need to adopt them for the championship.
Quote from: Jinxy on May 21, 2017, 01:03:48 PM
Nope.
We either do it in 'threes', i.e. senior, intermediate & junior, or we use the existing league structure (4 divisions).
If there are only two tiers, that still leaves a lot of teams with nothing to play for.
I don't know why people are insisting on reinventing the wheel when we have structures that work perfectly well elsewhere, we just need to adopt them for the championship.
4*8 is too narrow. Maybe 16 and 2*8
When you nose dive Laois into D4 your voice doesn't hold much weight on these issues.
Quote from: Jinxy on May 21, 2017, 01:03:48 PM
Nope.
We either do it in 'threes', i.e. senior, intermediate & junior, or we use the existing league structure (4 divisions).
If there are only two tiers, that still leaves a lot of teams with nothing to play for.
I don't know why people are insisting on reinventing the wheel when we have structures that work perfectly well elsewhere, we just need to adopt them for the championship.
+1.
A structured Senior/Inter/Junior with promotion and relegation as happens in the club scene everywhere.
12/12/8 the most appropriate and base it on the Super 8 and then NFL positions.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 21, 2017, 05:47:44 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on May 21, 2017, 01:03:48 PM
Nope.
We either do it in 'threes', i.e. senior, intermediate & junior, or we use the existing league structure (4 divisions).
If there are only two tiers, that still leaves a lot of teams with nothing to play for.
I don't know why people are insisting on reinventing the wheel when we have structures that work perfectly well elsewhere, we just need to adopt them for the championship.
+1.
A structured Senior/Inter/Junior with promotion and relegation as happens in the club scene everywhere.
12/12/8 the most appropriate and base it on the Super 8 and then NFL positions.
12/12/8 sounds the business.
Use the present Junior Championship and add the 8 into it? Would the Kerry Junior team be stronger than Leitrim, Wicklow, Carlow? If Kerry won this championship, it has to pick a new team for the following year. It would not be promoted to intermediate. A County who's 'A' team win Junior would be promoted.
First teams only.
Have a Junior B if you want to preserve the present Junior thingy.
A Connacht title would mean far more to Roscommon than an Intermediate AI title. And the matches in the former would draw far more than the matches in the later.
Sin é.
Quote from: Syferus on May 21, 2017, 09:51:40 PM
A Connacht title would mean far more to Roscommon than an Intermediate AI title. And the matches in the former would draw far more than the matches in the later.
Sin é.
That's the rub Syf. Tradition is the immovable mass and the changing times are the unstoppable force.
I'm afraid the physicists got a problem here as the immovable force ain't going nowhere. Of course Ross would prefer a Connacht Title above any amount of mickey mouse new competitions and Kerry and Cork wouldn't do away with their Munster finals and the list goes on and on...
Seriously, we do need some radical change or we're on the last bus to nowhere but tradition is the stumbling block that can't be moved.
So we can talk about change but there will be none I'm afraid.
Quote from: Syferus on May 21, 2017, 09:51:40 PM
A Connacht title would mean far more to Roscommon than an Intermediate AI title. And the matches in the former would draw far more than the matches in the later.
Sin é.
Roscommon lads would have a better chance of winning a naked pool competition than Connacht title this year.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-we-can-look-forward-to-lots-more-drivel-until-structure-is-changed-35763070.html
Quote from: mayoaremagic on May 21, 2017, 10:54:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 21, 2017, 09:51:40 PM
A Connacht title would mean far more to Roscommon than an Intermediate AI title. And the matches in the former would draw far more than the matches in the later.
Sin é.
Roscommon lads would have a better chance of winning a naked pool competition than Connacht title this year.
Mayoaremagic. Thats right. Just watch them make Sam disappear at the sight of a Dublin or Kerry jersey
A two tier championship will be the final nail in the coffin for the GAA in the counties in the 2nd tier. THEY ALREADY HAVE A LEAGUE BASED ON PERFORMANCES AND DO NOT WANT ANOTHER COMPETITION PLAYING THE SAME TEAMS. Is it that hard for people to grasp?
Every team sport in the world is dominated by 3/4 teams and everyone plays for pride. The GAA is based on local rivalries and that pride is of even more significance.
We do not need more competitions - we need the league played in better weather, perhaps at the same time as the championship. Shorten the season, stop chasing money and restore the importance of club activity where county players can take meaningful part.
Provincial titles provide 4 opportunities to counties to win a significant competition; granted Leinster is under the cosh of Dublin but too may of the Leinster counties are accepting it as a fait accompli and are beaten before they start. You have to take you that off to Westmeath who have reached the last two finals and were competitive for first 35 minutes each year. Bigger counties like Meath and Kildare should be more capable of taking on the Dubs and if they did the Leinster Championship would be in pretty good health.
Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 28, 2017, 08:00:48 PM
A two tier championship will be the final nail in the coffin for the GAA in the counties in the 2nd tier. THEY ALREADY HAVE A LEAGUE BASED ON PERFORMANCES AND DO NOT WANT ANOTHER COMPETITION PLAYING THE SAME TEAMS. Is it that hard for people to grasp?
Every team sport in the world is dominated by 3/4 teams and everyone plays for pride. The GAA is based on local rivalries and that pride is of even more significance.
We do not need more competitions - we need the league played in better weather, perhaps at the same time as the championship. Shorten the season, stop chasing money and restore the importance of club activity where county players can take meaningful part.
Provincial titles provide 4 opportunities to counties to win a significant competition; granted Leinster is under the cosh of Dublin but too may of the Leinster counties are accepting it as a fait accompli and are beaten before they start. You have to take you that off to Westmeath who have reached the last two finals and were competitive for first 35 minutes each year. Bigger counties like Meath and Kildare should be more capable of taking on the Dubs and if they did the Leinster Championship would be in pretty good health.
You're correct, we don't need a 2 tier championship, we need a 3 tier championship. It works perfectly at club level and there is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't be a great success at county level. The ulster championship used to be very competitive with nearly all games hard to predict and never was ther too much in games. Nowadays we are seeing 3 counties who are well out on their own and the 3 matches so far have been complete mismatches. How can games like today be of interest to most supporters?
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.
The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.
When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
Quote from: Syferus on May 28, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.
The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.
When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
With so many one sided games the interest is seriously waning at the moment. You say that in hurling there is very little interest in the lower tier competitions which is fair enough. You have to compare it though with what interest there was in those counties before the tiered competitions were set up. Counties like derry, tyrone, donegal don't get that many supporters to their matches in the ring/rackard but I would bet that the number has increased compared to the numbers who turned up to watch them before those competitions were set up.
Jesus man, that's utter nonsense. There was about 20,000 at the Cavan Dublin league game and huge crowds at many other league games. You talk about the provincials like they are not dying on their feet when the evidence is they are.
Why are you talking about traveling half the country to see random match ups (whatever the blue blazes they are? Is the All Ireland final one of these random match ups?). Roscommon supporters could probably get to 10 non-Connacht counties in not much more time to get to some county grounds within the province. Offaly, Westmeath, Longford all boarder Roscommon. Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Laois, Tipp or Kildare not a million miles away. Other counties wold be even better set.
If Waterford had beaten Cork it would have been brilliant for them but an upset like that once every second generation isn't better than giving every Waterford footballer over an 80 year period a proper season. The provincial system means that most IC footballers in Ireland are just waiting for their season to end after the league. Linking the league to the championship would give every footballer a pathway to the bigtime and supporters more genuine contests.
Even supporters of the provincials acknowledge they would have no value if they weren't linked to the championship whereas the league is growing in strength as a stand alone competition so imagine the crowds and passion if played in April and May with all teams at full strength.
Quote from: Zulu on May 28, 2017, 10:17:22 PM
Jesus man, that's utter nonsense. There was about 20,000 at the Cavan Dublin league game and huge crowds at many other league games. You talk about the provincials like they are not dying on their feet when the evidence is they are.
Why are you talking about traveling half the country to see random match ups (whatever the blue blazes they are? Is the All Ireland final one of these random match ups?). Roscommon supporters could probably get to 10 non-Connacht counties in not much more time to get to some county grounds within the province. Offaly, Westmeath, Longford all boarder Roscommon. Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Laois, Tipp or Kildare not a million miles away. Other counties wold be even better set.
If Waterford had beaten Cork it would have been brilliant for them but an upset like that once every second generation isn't better than giving every Waterford footballer over an 80 year period a proper season. The provincial system means that most IC footballers in Ireland are just waiting for their season to end after the league. Linking the league to the championship would give every footballer a pathway to the bigtime and supporters more genuine contests.
Even supporters of the provincials acknowledge they would have no value if they weren't linked to the championship whereas the league is growing in strength as a stand alone competition so imagine the crowds and passion if played in April and May with all teams at full strength.
I love how you immediately contradicted yourself by pointing to a Division 1 match, and one involving a county twice the size of the province of Connacht at that.
You said this -
"Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail."
I pointed out that this is rubbish but you now say it's because it's a division one game? Of course the games involving the best teams will generate bigger crowds and the most populated counties will bring have bigger crowds but you claim people aren't interested in going to games if it's not down the road and against a local rival, that's clearly nonsense. Why is Roscommon v Leitrim better than Dublin v Mayo?
Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 28, 2017, 08:00:48 PM
A two tier championship will be the final nail in the coffin for the GAA in the counties in the 2nd tier. THEY ALREADY HAVE A LEAGUE BASED ON PERFORMANCES AND DO NOT WANT ANOTHER COMPETITION PLAYING THE SAME TEAMS. Is it that hard for people to grasp?
Every team sport in the world is dominated by 3/4 teams and everyone plays for pride. The GAA is based on local rivalries and that pride is of even more significance.
We do not need more competitions - we need the league played in better weather, perhaps at the same time as the championship. Shorten the season, stop chasing money and restore the importance of club activity where county players can take meaningful part.
Provincial titles provide 4 opportunities to counties to win a significant competition; granted Leinster is under the cosh of Dublin but too may of the Leinster counties are accepting it as a fait accompli and are beaten before they start. You have to take you that off to Westmeath who have reached the last two finals and were competitive for first 35 minutes each year. Bigger counties like Meath and Kildare should be more capable of taking on the Dubs and if they did the Leinster Championship would be in pretty good health.
The Leinster championship is under the cosh of one county? What about Munster or Connacht? Even the Ulster championship is limited to two or three teams and has been for many years. There isn't a provincial championship worth watching anymore. The league is way better than the provincials and every year the evidence keeps piling up but some people keep trying to tell us that a once in a 100 years win for some county is reason enough to keep a format that is failing our sport.
12-12-8+ is how it should be.
No county has every club playing senior championship, so why should every county play for Sam.
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.
Quote from: ONeill on May 29, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.
They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 29, 2017, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: ONeill on May 29, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.
They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.
No, they're not. You think Cork v Kerry will fill the new park at the moment? Or most Ulster championship games will fill a new Casement?
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 01:23:05 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 29, 2017, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: ONeill on May 29, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.
They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.
No, they're not. You think Cork v Kerry will fill the new park at the moment? Or most Ulster championship games will fill a new Casement?
Time to go to bed, Paraic.
A structured championship would give counties more than 2 matches over the summer. Say Roscommon were in the second tier. I am sure they would burst a gut to get to the top tier rather than roll over in front of Galway/Mayo again. They wouldn't have the same psychological weakness with Kildare or Derry.
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 01:44:21 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 01:23:05 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 29, 2017, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: ONeill on May 29, 2017, 12:26:31 AM
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.
They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.
No, they're not. You think Cork v Kerry will fill the new park at the moment? Or most Ulster championship games will fill a new Casement?
Time to go to bed, Paraic.
Someday, as a self improvement strategy, try to go through a full 24 hours without talking complete bollocks.
Quote from: Syferus on May 28, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.
The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.
When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
Syf, a very famous American journalist once onserved that nobody even went broke by underestimating the taste of the public. RTE's audience would watch 2 flies on a window if it was called sport and analysed at half time.
For a lot of people the GAA is the summer and they will go to matches as long as the standard is watchable and the prices are reasonable
To a degree the GAA and RTE both rely on the fact that as long as there are games called Gaelic football that there will sufficient gate and viewing public.
There is a real danger that the audience, especially younger folk won't buy into the product on display. Especially outside the top 5 counties.
The argument that the provincials are the cash cow that sits along the final 8 is falling away and that decline could accelerate quickly.
Anybody thinking that a USFC final would fill a stadium in Belfast at sitting prices is detached from the real world
I def think something is needed to improve the product, make it more interesting and more attractive especially to young people. I have 3 lads aged 6, 9 and 14 all play GAA and all play soccer. They are glued to Soccer on sky sports, Match of the Day, and You Tube. It is rare that they watch any GAA games on the TV during Championship and to be honest I find it hard to sell it to them watching Tyrone and Derry yesterday would put anyone off the game and non-event on the scoreboard and a horrible spectacle to view given Tyrone's defensive shape. I use to watch and record - and re watch - every Sunday Game. Now though the GAA seem to have given in to soccer's pull. Its a ridiculous situation where the bottom 2 divisions in the league get zero coverage from RTE and eir sport. something needs to change.
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2017, 09:25:57 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 28, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.
The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.
When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
Syf, a very famous American journalist once onserved that nobody even went broke by underestimating the taste of the public. RTE's audience would watch 2 flies on a window if it was called sport and analysed at half time.
For a lot of people the GAA is the summer and they will go to matches as long as the standard is watchable and the prices are reasonable
Have to agree with Syf on this. There is no interest in the general public for a 2/3 tier competition. The crowds would be poor and many would look down their nose on such competitions. The Sunday game would give games from these tiers the usual couple of minutes coverage in the evening Highlights program. The Top tier would just get bigger and stronger as Money from Sky and various media outlets would be pumped back into the Bigger counties as reward for their achievements. So the gap would get bigger and bigger! I know Mayo won the Nicky Rackard last year and our local Hurling Club had the Cup many times. Few knew what it was and only the odd person like myself had pictures of the Kids taken with it. I know Hurling is a different Animal. As north of the Midlands there is virtually little nothing of the game played and if it is it is generally of a poor standard.
There is no quick fix of this continuous problem. I say continuous because this problem has been there since the foundation of the Gaa and more so since the intercounty scene kicked in in the 20's (?) where before this a Club represented the county. Because of the Varying sizes and populations of Counties there is always going to be an imbalance.
To properly fix a lot of these problems would probably mean amalgamations of smaller counties and Franchises to create multiple entities for larger counties like Cork and Dublin. Would the Population have an appetite for a change in traditional boundaries? I don't think so! Would a Longford/Westmeath team be happy to win a Leinster and All Ireland title as one entity? Or would they just be happy to plod along and do what they have done for the past 100+ years? For me that is the only way forward! But it is to radical and we as a GAA nation are too stuck in our traditional ways!
The non event on the scoreboard yesterday might be addressed by the tiered championship but it won't address the spectacle on the pitch. Who thinks Tyrone versus Monaghan or Donegal would be any better in terms of men behind the ball and low risk football?
Your TV package should include a condition that for every Senior game you show you must also show an Inter and a Junior.
There's little public interest in 75% of the Qualifiers going by the 2016 attendances because most of the teams have no hope of a trophy at the end of the competition.
Senior/Inter/Junior 12/12/8 with promotion and relegation is the way to go.
August weekend to be All Ireland Finals weekend.
Saturday U17 and U20
Sunday Senior
Monday Junior and Inter.
Keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions with everybody entering them.
Quote from: mcklatchee on May 29, 2017, 09:44:56 AM
Anybody thinking that a USFC final would fill a stadium in Belfast at sitting prices is detached from the real world
That reflects the fact that some of the recent Ulster finalists, Monaghan and Donegal are relatively distant from Belfast. If Down and/or Armagh were any use and Tyrone were involved you'd fill the place no problem.
I'm not sure that the present structure explains why Down and Armagh are not much use, when the less populous Monaghan is stronger.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 29, 2017, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: mcklatchee on May 29, 2017, 09:44:56 AM
Anybody thinking that a USFC final would fill a stadium in Belfast at sitting prices is detached from the real world
That reflects the fact that some of the recent Ulster finalists, Monaghan and Donegal are relatively distant from Belfast. If Down and/or Armagh were any use and Tyrone were involved you'd fill the place no problem.
I'm not sure that the present structure explains why Down and Armagh are not much use, when the less populous Monaghan is stronger.
Populous? Total population would lead to a very false understanding in both Down and armagh.
Monaghan are competently managed by someone who has earned their stripes, been in situ for a stable period and is prepared to reduce the game to its basic functions irrespective of what does to the long term health of the game.
There's your difference
Hurling is only played seriously in 14 counties. North of a line from Galway to Dublin the only places hurling matters are Antrim and the Ards peninsula. Most football fans would not watch a hurling match. So I don't think you can compare the hurling setup with the future of football. The audience is much smaller.
Take a county like Laois right now. What kind of structure would work for them? Donie Kingston is a fabulous player who would walk onto the Mayo team. He might only get 3 matches this year.
There are passionate supporters in all counties. How to harness that is the question.
Quote from: From the Bunker on May 29, 2017, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 29, 2017, 09:25:57 AM
Quote from: Syferus on May 28, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.
The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.
When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
Syf, a very famous American journalist once onserved that nobody even went broke by underestimating the taste of the public. RTE's audience would watch 2 flies on a window if it was called sport and analysed at half time.
For a lot of people the GAA is the summer and they will go to matches as long as the standard is watchable and the prices are reasonable
Have to agree with Syf on this. There is no interest in the general public for a 2/3 tier competition. The crowds would be poor and many would look down their nose on such competitions. The Sunday game would give games from these tiers the usual couple of minutes coverage in the evening Highlights program. The Top tier would just get bigger and stronger as Money from Sky and various media outlets would be pumped back into the Bigger counties as reward for their achievements. So the gap would get bigger and bigger! I know Mayo won the Nicky Rackard last year and our local Hurling Club had the Cup many times. Few knew what it was and only the odd person like myself had pictures of the Kids taken with it. I know Hurling is a different Animal. As north of the Midlands there is virtually little nothing of the game played and if it is it is generally of a poor standard.
There is no quick fix of this continuous problem. I say continuous because this problem has been there since the foundation of the Gaa and more so since the intercounty scene kicked in in the 20's (?) where before this a Club represented the county. Because of the Varying sizes and populations of Counties there is always going to be an imbalance.
To properly fix a lot of these problems would probably mean amalgamations of smaller counties and Franchises to create multiple entities for larger counties like Cork and Dublin. Would the Population have an appetite for a change in traditional boundaries? I don't think so! Would a Longford/Westmeath team be happy to win a Leinster and All Ireland title as one entity? Or would they just be happy to plod along and do what they have done for the past 100+ years? For me that is the only way forward! But it is to radical and we as a GAA nation are too stuck in our traditional ways!
Personally, I think all teams have to have a shot at the All Ireland which is why I'd prefer linking the league to the championship which gives you the tiered format, a trophy all teams can aim to win, knockout football but everyone still has a chance to win Sam. Now you can debate the correct format all day but the reality is that the provincials have no place in it. Play them as stand alones if you want but they must be removed from the championship proper.
I still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.
We still have a great sport but the competition formats we have and the sterility of managers approach to the game is killing it as a spectacle. Like a previous poster said, I wouldn't encourage kids to watch the game anymore as it would only put them off it. Better to just to play now if you want to enjoy the game.
We have a great sport being gnawed at its bones by consumerism and negative tactics. It's future is far from assured.
Zulu as usual avoids the idea of splitting his scared cow - Dublin - even though it is the county most responsible for the widening gap between counties.
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.
All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.
The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.
There have been plenty of us warning of what was going to happen for years on here.........going down the elite (I hate that word being used in GAA) road has ruined the game.......fellas thinking they are too good for club........county supporters and sponsors who know nothing about the grassroots........and how players actually get to play for county teams........all now supported by county boards and the GAA hierarchy chasing money.......Cake Curran tried to get it across on the Sunday Game by likening the GAA to the Catholic Church........nobody listens.......the game and the GAA will never be the same........Zulu makes one good point......the game is ok to play especially at younger age groups but once you get to the elite stage of 14 up the development squads, county squads etc ruin the whole thing for the majority as they rule the roost and EvERYONE else must fall into line........can't see how this can be fixed.......in fairness this has all come at a time when the world is being ruined by money greed social media etc so it is not just a GAA problem......
Quotei still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.
Tyrone won the Ulster championship for first time in years last year and anyone of Monaghan,Donegal,Tyrone could win Ulster this year. No other provincial has 3 teams that are capable of winning their province at this moment in time and those three teams are established division one teams and for as terrible as Ulster is as you claim sides like Fermanagh,Armagh not currently capable of winning Ulster were still able to reach the All Ireland quarter final recently and give a very good account of themselves.
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.
All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.
The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.
Reservoir Dubs doesn't count, Zulu.
This all boils down to two diametrically opposed positions - you want a system that only strengthens and uplifts the few, whereas most want a system that uplifts all areas that are passionate about the sport and allows them to compete at the highest level. Sadly some don't understand that a tiered system is never going to achieve that goal. No county that is regularly playing at Inter is ever going to be any better prepared to compete at Senior if and when they make it there. The elitism of hurling being superimposed on our sport would make me lose interest in it very fast.
Amalgamation and, in the case of Dublin and Cork, splitting is preferable to a tiered system because at least the former isn't a death sentence for interest in inter-county for those unfortunate counties stuck outside the top 8 or 12.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 29, 2017, 04:39:28 PM
Quotei still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.
Tyrone won the Ulster championship for first time in years last year and anyone of Monaghan,Donegal,Tyrone could win Ulster this year. No other provincial has 3 teams that are capable of winning their province at this moment in time and those three teams are established division one teams and for as terrible as Ulster is as you claim sides like Fermanagh,Armagh not currently capable of winning Ulster were still able to reach the All Ireland quarter final recently and give a very good account of themselves.
Yes, there may be three potential winners but it's the same three that have been there for a decade. I accept there are more middling teams which means more can get to a QF but there are no All Ireland winners in Ulster at the moment.
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.
All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.
The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.
Reservoir Dubs doesn't count, Zulu.
This all boils down to two diametrically opposed positions - you want a system that only strengthens and uplifts the few, whereas most want a system that uplifts all areas that are passionate about the sport and allows them to compete at the highest level. Sadly some don't understand that a tiered system is never going to achieve that goal. No county that is regularly playing at Inter is ever going to be any better prepared to compete at Senior if and when they make it there. The elitism of hurling being superimposed on our sport would make me lose interest in it very fast.
Amalgamation and, in the case of Dublin and Cork, splitting is preferable to a tiered system because at least the former isn't a death sentence for interest in inter-county for those unfortunate counties stuck outside the top 8 or 12.
Will you please stop talking bollocks for a minute?
Amalgamations and splitting teams wouldn't be a death sentence for interest, are you bonkers? You may as well suggest our IC teams play soccer to develop the GAA as to suggest Cork and Dublin be split. So if you want to propose solutions that haven't a hope in hell in ever happening then carry on talking to yourself.
Again, I don't actually support the tiered format of junior, intermediate and senior but it's clearly a load of rubbish to suggest playing intermediate will hinder you at senior. Loads of teams at various levels have climbed the ladder to compete at the highest level. Your argument lacks any logic, why would a mid ranking team playing in the current format improve by playing and losing to the odd top team but couldn't improve by playing regular football every second week against teams they can compete against? If they are the best of that bunch then they'll be able to compete against the weaker top teams at least. There's actually so little sense to what your arguing that I could be here all day picking holes in it.
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 05:51:51 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.
All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.
The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.
Reservoir Dubs doesn't count, Zulu.
This all boils down to two diametrically opposed positions - you want a system that only strengthens and uplifts the few, whereas most want a system that uplifts all areas that are passionate about the sport and allows them to compete at the highest level. Sadly some don't understand that a tiered system is never going to achieve that goal. No county that is regularly playing at Inter is ever going to be any better prepared to compete at Senior if and when they make it there. The elitism of hurling being superimposed on our sport would make me lose interest in it very fast.
Amalgamation and, in the case of Dublin and Cork, splitting is preferable to a tiered system because at least the former isn't a death sentence for interest in inter-county for those unfortunate counties stuck outside the top 8 or 12.
Will you please stop talking bollocks for a minute?
Amalgamations and splitting teams wouldn't be a death sentence for interest, are you bonkers? You may as well suggest our IC teams play soccer to develop the GAA as to suggest Cork and Dublin be split. So if you want to propose solutions that haven't a hope in hell in ever happening then carry on talking to yourself.
Again, I don't actually support the tiered format of junior, intermediate and senior but it's clearly a load of rubbish to suggest playing intermediate will hinder you at senior. Loads of teams at various levels have climbed the ladder to compete at the highest level. Your argument lacks any logic, why would a mid ranking team playing in the current format improve by playing and losing to the odd top team but couldn't improve by playing regular football every second week against teams they can compete against? If they are the best of that bunch then they'll be able to compete against the weaker top teams at least. There's actually so little sense to what your arguing that I could be here all day picking holes in it.
Well said. The simple fact is if Derry had 3 or 4 championship games v teams like armagh, down, meath and tipperary it would be a hell of a lot more beneficial to the development of players than being out of their depth and being destroyed by tyrone or donegal or dublin or mayo. With a tiered system counties like dublin and kerry would almost always be senior but counties like derry would most likely yo yo between senior and intermediate. When a really good group of players comes along we would be senior but at the moment we are barely an intermediate team. It works perfectly at club level, there is no reason at all it wouldn't work well at county. In derry teams like ardmore and doire trasna aren't asked to play slaughtneil or ballinderry in the lesgue or championship, so why do we put up with the mismatches at county level which are becoming much more frequent and boringly predictable.
The logical sensible Zulu meets Syfín ;D
You'd be forgiven for thinking Senior/Inter/Junior was some mad radical new thing that was never ever used before.
Instead we have it in all Counties so as the small depopulated rural parish team aren't thrown into the same competition as big town teams or areas of rising population near cities etc.
In Roscommon Ballinameen don't play in the same championship as Brigids or Clann.
As for splitting Dublin - would that help Carlow win the Senior AI??
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
Why should others come to the question of what the hell they are doing putting in all this effort? What is negative about people pushing themselves to be the best they can be in whatever field they choose?
Why shouldn't the onus be on other counties to also step up to the plate? The likes of Antrim, Down and Derry as cited by yourself, and others outside Ulster like Kildare, need to get their houses in order. The size of population in those counties is conducive to producing good GAA teams. I know you can roughly halve the populations of Antrim, Down and Derry, but they are still very sizeable places.
I understand population isn't a foolproof recipe for success. If it was, my own county, Kilkenny, wouldn't be consistently eating at the top table as we're relatively small. But get good youth structures in place, put local squabbling apart and work for the overall good, and each county will have it's unique problems, treat players properly and success will invariably follow to a greater or lesser degree. A huge difference between the haves and have-nots is the value in the county jersey. In all successful counties without exception, the county team is the pinnacle. The respect players have in Dublin, Kerry, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Cork etc. have for the county jersey is phenomenal. Not all counties have that and it doesn't just materialise, it needs to be cultivated. Instead of praying the big boys slacken off, the aim should be to emulate them and do things even better.
Quote from: Kilkevan on May 29, 2017, 07:24:28 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
Why should others come to the question of what the hell they are doing putting in all this effort? What is negative about people pushing themselves to be the best they can be in whatever field they choose?
Why shouldn't the onus be on other counties to also step up to the plate? The likes of Antrim, Down and Derry as cited by yourself, and others outside Ulster like Kildare, need to get their houses in order. The size of population in those counties is conducive to producing good GAA teams. I know you can roughly halve the populations of Antrim, Down and Derry, but they are still very sizeable places.
I understand population isn't a foolproof recipe for success. If it was, my own county, Kilkenny, wouldn't be consistently eating at the top table as we're relatively small. But get good youth structures in place, put local squabbling apart and work for the overall good, and each county will have it's unique problems, treat players properly and success will invariably follow to a greater or lesser degree. A huge difference between the haves and have-nots is the value in the county jersey. In all successful counties without exception, the county team is the pinnacle. The respect players have in Dublin, Kerry, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Cork etc. have for the county jersey is phenomenal. Not all counties have that and it doesn't just materialise, it needs to be cultivated. Instead of praying the big boys slacken off, the aim should be to emulate them and do things even better.
Bravo for you, you come from one of the 3 counties who just happen to have shared 95% of all hurling titles and you think it's some sort of an achievement for your players to have pride in the county jersey. I don't think there would be too many problems getting the best players out to play for derry or antrim if we were going for our 30th sam maguire.
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
The let's hope Dublin stop spending millions and getting millions more in grants approach to bringing parity. Even Kerry have splurtered horribly in their attempts to catch Dublin and they probably have the most resources outside of the capital to work with. Once the GAA started dumping millions into Dublin to try and case after rugby and soccer it was only a matter of time before all of their advantages met with consistent and near-total success.
Sadly that crazy sort of thinking probably is closer to the GAA's weak-willed approach that's unwilling to address the abatross they hung around their own necks than than it is to a sensible and coherent approach to draining the money doping from the game and making it a truly amateur sport again.
Kilkenny man......how do you propose your footballers get better????? You mention Cork but surely on a hurling context only.........superpowers like cork and Meath are now in the also rans............Meath actually had more to celebrate in hurling last year! I can guarantee you now that the only counties who will get to the standard that Dublin are at now are Kerry, Mayo for another couple of years and then maybe Donegal and Tyrone could get close for a year or two, Monaghan as well.....and that is why they are putting their lives into it.......because they have even an outside chance..........Carlow had a great win over Wexford but it will prob do more long term harm than good when Dublin roll over the top of them in second gear and they realise just how far they are behind........if you were an Antrim or Fermanagh footballer last week or a Derry man today would you be thinking well that was worth it......the biggest surprise to me is that 10000 people turn up yesterday for a game that was so predictable........even when two good teams meet such as Tyrone v Donegal next it will make for horrific viewing....
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
The let's hope Dublin stop spending millions and getting millions more in grants approach to bringing parity. Sadly that crazy sort of thinking probably is closer to the GAA's weak-willed approach that's unwilling to address the abatross they hung around their own necks than than it is to a sensible and coherent approach to cpdraining the money doping from the game and making it a truly amateur sport again.
If it was all down to money Dublin would be running away with all the hurling all irelands also because they have similar amounts pumped into hurling in dublin. If anything hurling has started to regress aagain in dublin. Dublin quite simply have a great manager, great team and group of players at the moment. Some of their players like brogan, flynn etc are coming right to the end of their careers and I have a feeling they will slip back in the next year or 2. As it is most of their latter stage of the championship matches in the last few years have been very tight which shows that even now they're not that far ahead of teams like kerry, mayo and donegal.
Quote from: Zulu on May 29, 2017, 05:40:07 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on May 29, 2017, 04:39:28 PM
Quotei still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.
Tyrone won the Ulster championship for first time in years last year and anyone of Monaghan,Donegal,Tyrone could win Ulster this year. No other provincial has 3 teams that are capable of winning their province at this moment in time and those three teams are established division one teams and for as terrible as Ulster is as you claim sides like Fermanagh,Armagh not currently capable of winning Ulster were still able to reach the All Ireland quarter final recently and give a very good account of themselves.
Yes, there may be three potential winners but it's the same three that have been there for a decade. I accept there are more middling teams which means more can get to a QF but there are no All Ireland winners in Ulster at the moment.
Munster and Leinster wouldn't mind having three potential winners instead of one. Some of the best moments in the championship happened in the provincial championships last summer, Donegal v Monaghan and Tyrone v Donegal were highly competitive games in Ulster, in Connacht you had Galway beating Mayo and winning their first senior provincial title for years, Tipperary great run probably started with that win over Cork.
One can talk about different formats or the "great" super 8s but at the moment and I don't see this changing anytime soon, Kerry and Dublin are the only capable All Ireland winners, Mayo at a push but they are more known for finding different ways to lose the All Ireland than actually winning it.
Quote from: lenny on May 29, 2017, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
The let's hope Dublin stop spending millions and getting millions more in grants approach to bringing parity. Sadly that crazy sort of thinking probably is closer to the GAA's weak-willed approach that's unwilling to address the abatross they hung around their own necks than than it is to a sensible and coherent approach to cpdraining the money doping from the game and making it a truly amateur sport again.
If it was all down to money Dublin would be running away with all the hurling all irelands also because they have similar amounts pumped into hurling in dublin. If anything hurling has started to regress aagain in dublin. Dublin quite simply have a great manager, great team and group of players at the moment. Some of their players like brogan, flynn etc are coming right to the end of their careers and I have a feeling they will slip back in the next year or 2. As it is most of their latter stage of the championship matches in the last few years have been very tight which shows that even now they're not that far ahead of teams like kerry, mayo and donegal.
The only reason Dublin haven't won a hurling AI is the best hurlers are also top footballers, and it's a football first county. Once the Kilkennys and Costellos start choosing hurling that will come, it should be very frightening how fast Dublin have become a major power in hurling thanks to the money they've pumped into the sport.
What other county in living memory have done what Dublin have and became a major power without having any tradition or even primary status in their county to work in the sport's advantage? Hurling is such a closed shop apart from Dublin, Westmeath giving a half-interested Galway a shock is the closest to a breakthrough we've seen in a very long time.
The footballers have even more advantages to rely on.
Dublin are sponsored by AIG, a billion dollar entity. Roscommon, another D1 team, are sponsored by a single developer and wear their own supporter club as their shirt sponsors. The GAA have warped the system so badly even at the supposed highest level the gap is frighteningly large.
Dublin won several hurling All Irelands in the past.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2017, 09:37:19 PM
Dublin won several hurling All Irelands in the past.
Wexford won a four in a row in football..
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 29, 2017, 09:37:19 PM
Dublin won several hurling All Irelands in the past.
Wexford won a four in a row in football..
There are a few hurling counties other than Wexford who won football all Irelands before they focused on hurling. Limerick, Cork and Tipp won all Irelands before the 1920s
Didn't Kerry win a hurling title in 1891 and Limerick won the first football. No bearing whatsoever on today's code balance.
Quote from: lenny on May 29, 2017, 08:25:22 PM
Quote from: Kilkevan on May 29, 2017, 07:24:28 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
Why should others come to the question of what the hell they are doing putting in all this effort? What is negative about people pushing themselves to be the best they can be in whatever field they choose?
Why shouldn't the onus be on other counties to also step up to the plate? The likes of Antrim, Down and Derry as cited by yourself, and others outside Ulster like Kildare, need to get their houses in order. The size of population in those counties is conducive to producing good GAA teams. I know you can roughly halve the populations of Antrim, Down and Derry, but they are still very sizeable places.
I understand population isn't a foolproof recipe for success. If it was, my own county, Kilkenny, wouldn't be consistently eating at the top table as we're relatively small. But get good youth structures in place, put local squabbling apart and work for the overall good, and each county will have it's unique problems, treat players properly and success will invariably follow to a greater or lesser degree. A huge difference between the haves and have-nots is the value in the county jersey. In all successful counties without exception, the county team is the pinnacle. The respect players have in Dublin, Kerry, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Cork etc. have for the county jersey is phenomenal. Not all counties have that and it doesn't just materialise, it needs to be cultivated. Instead of praying the big boys slacken off, the aim should be to emulate them and do things even better.
Bravo for you, you come from one of the 3 counties who just happen to have shared 95% of all hurling titles and you think it's some sort of an achievement for your players to have pride in the county jersey. I don't think there would be too many problems getting the best players out to play for derry or antrim if we were going for our 30th sam maguire.
There's a lot more to it than that and you know it. I would say there's also a strong attachment to how county players are treated and perceived to be treated. Cork went back a long way and are perhaps only now returning to being Cork and a large part of that was how players were treated/perceived to be treated. I listed a number of necessities for building success, not just attachment to the county team. Address some of those rather than myopically focusing on one point.
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 08:58:03 PM
Kilkenny man......how do you propose your footballers get better????? You mention Cork but surely on a hurling context only.........superpowers like cork and Meath are now in the also rans............Meath actually had more to celebrate in hurling last year! I can guarantee you now that the only counties who will get to the standard that Dublin are at now are Kerry, Mayo for another couple of years and then maybe Donegal and Tyrone could get close for a year or two, Monaghan as well.....and that is why they are putting their lives into it.......because they have even an outside chance..........Carlow had a great win over Wexford but it will prob do more long term harm than good when Dublin roll over the top of them in second gear and they realise just how far they are behind........if you were an Antrim or Fermanagh footballer last week or a Derry man today would you be thinking well that was worth it......the biggest surprise to me is that 10000 people turn up yesterday for a game that was so predictable........even when two good teams meet such as Tyrone v Donegal next it will make for horrific viewing....
There is no interest in football in Kilkenny. Probably never will be and outside of a very small group nobody cares how bad the footballers are. Trying to improve Kilkenny football is flogging a dead horse.
Cork have had a bad run of things in both hurling and football in recent years and can be considered also fans in that timr in hurling too. Every successful county goes through good and bad patches though and I would be very surprised if Cork don't get back in both in time.
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 29, 2017, 08:58:41 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 06:33:50 PM
I think a three tier championship as per the club scene is the best option in the short term.......in the long term the only hope is that the top teams begin to ask themselves "what the hell are we putting in all of this effort for and putting the rest of our lives on hold for?"..... and hopefully they will come back to the pack.........if you were a young lad from Down Derry Armagh Antrim Fermanagh etc would you be willing to put your life on hold over the next few years just to try and close the gap? When Harte goes Tyrone will prob come back to the pack and prob the same in Monaghan post orourke.......when Donegal lose another few especially Murphy they will come back down too......then we might see a competitive ulster championship again anyway.........dunno what we can do with the dubs and Kerry though!!!!!
The let's hope Dublin stop spending millions and getting millions more in grants approach to bringing parity. Sadly that crazy sort of thinking probably is closer to the GAA's weak-willed approach that's unwilling to address the abatross they hung around their own necks than than it is to a sensible and coherent approach to cpdraining the money doping from the game and making it a truly amateur sport again.
If it was all down to money Dublin would be running away with all the hurling all irelands also because they have similar amounts pumped into hurling in dublin. If anything hurling has started to regress aagain in dublin. Dublin quite simply have a great manager, great team and group of players at the moment. Some of their players like brogan, flynn etc are coming right to the end of their careers and I have a feeling they will slip back in the next year or 2. As it is most of their latter stage of the championship matches in the last few years have been very tight which shows that even now they're not that far ahead of teams like kerry, mayo and donegal.
The only reason Dublin haven't won a hurling AI is the best hurlers are also top footballers, and it's a football first county. Once the Kilkennys and Costellos start choosing hurling that will come, it should be very frightening how fast Dublin have become a major power in hurling thanks to the money they've pumped into the sport.
What other county in living memory have done what Dublin have and became a major power without having any tradition or even primary status in their county to work in the sport's advantage? Hurling is such a closed shop apart from Dublin, Westmeath giving a half-interested Galway a shock is the closet to a breakthrough we've seen in a very long time.
Offaly in 1981, Syf. Came out of nowhere. Won 4 all Irelands in less than 20 years
http://spailpin.blogspot.ie/2017/05/the-football-championship-pageant-not.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Spailpin+(An+Spailp%C3%ADn+F%C3%A1nach)
I think a big problem in football anyway is that we went through a period in the 70s/early 80s when Dublin and Kerry dominated and it was all ok.......other provincial winners took their beating and got on with it.......no back door......no sky Tv.......no social media.......nobody knew any different.......then we had a great period when so many different teams competed and football was at its zenith from the mid 80s to late noughties ......this was the pinnacle and still fresh in all of our memories........we long for those days again......but the world has moved on....Ireland is now a much more international outgoing place......our young people want to be part of success but want it given to them, not to have to really dig in and work for it......that is why I can't see teams closing gaps......our rural communities are decimated......those counties just won't be able to compete.......Kerry and Dublin dominating again does not carry the same appeal as before.......we long for a time when Cork Meath Galway Armagh Down Derry Wexford Monaghan Laois Kildare are all at or near the top table.......with Tyrone Mayo Donegal and Monaghan .......Cavan Westmeath Leitrim Sligo and Clare winning provincial titles......Fermanagh limerick Louth and Antrim in finals......we went through a very special 20 year period and now we are in a demise that I think the modern world will make it very difficult to emerge from......i really can't see Antrim or Fermanagh competing again......Armagh have fired all they can at it with mcgeeney as manager but they just don't have it.........that said down v Armagh is a game to look forward to as we genuinely don't know who is going to win....... a rarity nowadays.......this thread is about splitting the championship into 2 x 16s.........it would need to be 8 at most and then 24.......oh that's right it's going to be 8 from next year.......but feck the other 24.......and the players in the other 24 will really start to says what's the point!!!!!
Quote from: Syferus on May 29, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
The only reason Dublin haven't won a hurling AI is the best hurlers are also top footballers, and it's a football first county. Once the Kilkennys and Costellos start choosing hurling that will come, it should be very frightening how fast Dublin have become a major power in hurling thanks to the money they've pumped into the sport.
Dublin aren't a major power in hurling and haven't been in decades. They've improved certainly and moved from being no hopers into a team which in a given year could compete for a Leinster championship. The closest they went to an All Ireland was in 2013 when neither Kilkenny nor Tipperary turned up and so it was a very level playing field. They've also moved back into arguably being provincial contenders, though this year they are a total mess, at a time when other more traditional competitors had gone back a good bit. There was a gap which had been vacated by Wexford and has been by Offaly and Dublin have slotted into that position. Saying they're a major power simply does not stack up.
I don't disbelieve that they can, maybe will, win an All Ireland at some point in the future. The hurling culture isn't there for them to dominate though. Football will always be the quickest route to success in Dublin and that will pull what hurlers there are away from the small ball game. Equally, hurling isn't sown into Dublin's fabric. Go to any part of Kilkenny and Tipperary, the real hurling strongholds in Cork and Waterford and you see young fellas, and girls, carrying hurls around with them like they're an additional body appendage. You can throw all the money you like at Dublin hurling but you just can't buy that kind of thing in a sport which is notoriously difficult to perfect.
Back to football, what caused Dublin to be so weak for years? It's still only ten to fifteen years ago where Dublin couldn't win even in Leinster. Being from Kilkenny, I wouldn't have the in-depth football knowledge most of you would have but something must have caused that. Could those conditions present again? I'm a believer that these things are cyclical and that Dublin will come back to the pack again. Take ourselves in hurling as a case in point, not so long ago other counties were despairing at our dominance, now we're no longer the front runners for the All Ireland, and perhaps not even for Leinster, and that's because of the cyclical nature of sport.
Quote from: The Trap on May 29, 2017, 11:15:18 PM
oh that's right it's going to be 8 from next year.......but feck the other 24.......and the players in the other 24 will really start to says what's the point!!!!!
Why are people so confused about next year's so called "super 8". I'm not sure who came up with that term but it seems to have misled a lot of people.
AFAIK nothing has changed to stop every county making it to the last 8 like other years. You have your 4 provincial winners and then 4 who come through the back door. There is no set elite counties that are getting preference over other counties.
Like in any competition the best teams should rise to the top but of course we all know that the game has become a lot more professional and the teams with the bigger playing population, best underage structures and money to spend on them and many other factors will tend to do the best.
I think the provincials really have become boring and of no benefit any more.
Munster has always been won by Kerry or Cork. Cork seem to have lost their way every since the blanket defence style of play has been brought in and don't seem interested in adapting to it. Tipperary & Clare have improved and are capable of beating Cork but not Kerry.
Leinster has been completely taken over by the Dubs and none of the other counties seem even interested in competing with them any more. Dublin have only lost one Leinster match since 2005 and every match they play is a total damp squid as they know before hand it will be a walk in the park and there's no atmosphere or passion.
The Dubs have to wait every year until August before they get a match of any intensity as do Kerry.
Connacht used to be a little bit interesting with Mayo and Galway big rivals and Roscommon or Sligo throwing in the odd surprise. However, again in the last 7 or 8 years Mayo have kicked on and became a lot more professional and dominated the province with them only losing out in 2010 and 2016 since 2009.
Ulster, which used to be the only entertainment the rest of the country got from May to August doesn't have the tough 1st round matches it was renowned for any more with the demise of Down, Derry and Armagh. Donegal and Monaghan however have shown that you can turn things around and they along with Tyrone still make it a fiercely competitive championship.
Only in Ireland would you see us play a totally unbalanced championship structure with uneven numbers in each province where most games are a total walk over, yet we do have a competition where we have the top 8 teams in a league structure yet we rarely get to see them play each other.
I would love to see more full blooded championship games such as
Donegal v Kerry, Dublin v Tyrone, Mayo v Monaghan, Cork v Galway etc.
Most years we get 2 or 3 exciting games in the whole year.
I think next years championship will be very interesting as yes you'll probably have your usual suspects as provincial winners but I think there will be a lot more fight in teams coming through the back door.
Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?
If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2017, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?
If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.
Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on May 30, 2017, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2017, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?
If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.
Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.
Teams gel after a few matches. Just look at Down in the league. 2 matches in they had zero points and were favs for relegation
I'd say counties like Ros and Cavan would improve with more matches.
The answer is simple.
Start a rating system whereby your performance in league, and provincial championship determine your ranking for the All Ireland draw, and, create 4 equal brackets, and a straight knockout championship.
In this structure, you no longer have 2 championship matches, but 8 league + 2 championship games, which gives 10 games that are linked to winning the All Ireland.
This is the system for US college basketball, and march madness is by far the best tournament in sports IMO.
In the US, they love the system because you have conferences which drives year on year local rivalry, and the tournament which provides the opportunity for a shock result (which happens every year)
It would be a simple solution to the current debacle
What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2017, 11:29:27 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on May 30, 2017, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on May 30, 2017, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
Unless you bring in some sort of handicap system the best teams are going to be in the closing stages.
But isn't that the whole point of having a competition?
If teams have more matches they develop more experience. Many matches are won by a point later in the summer.
The idea of structured reform would be to give teams more matches.
Because teams of a similar standard are playing eachother, not because poor teams have built up a head of steam after a few qualifier rounds.
Teams gel after a few matches. Just look at Down in the league. 2 matches in they had zero points and were favs for relegation
I'd say counties like Ros and Cavan would improve with more matches.
Aye and then they beat an awful Derry team, a Meath side who looked like they had a few pints with their pre-match meal and struggled to a draw with an already safe Cork. A run of games can help a side but it is definitely not the reason for closer games in later stages of the championship.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 12:01:07 PM
What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?
4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.
In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.
This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.
As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 12:01:07 PM
What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?
4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.
In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.
This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.
As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament
There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2017, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.
Players at Junior IC can do that already.. that people seem to have forgotten that a Junior level already exists shows how much people really care about the lower tiers.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2017, 02:02:05 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 12:01:07 PM
What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?
4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.
In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.
This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.
As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament
There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.
There absolutely is in basketball. Kansas v UC Davis, Villanova v Mount St Mary, is David verses goliath. But they look at the spread and if they smaller college keeps the score tight then its viewed as a moral victory. But every year a 2 v 15 seed produces an upset. So the smaller colleges earn the right to play by winning their conference against like sized teams and then get to enjoy playing marque teams.
I think it would be a simple and effective solution. If you don't want to play a top ranked team, start winning league games!!!!
Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2017, 02:02:05 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 30, 2017, 12:01:07 PM
What would those "equal brackets" be?
Will they be graded as in the NFL?
Will 2 teams from each get to AI Qtr Finals?
4 groups of 8, each group having a 1/4 final, semi final and final, with the winner going to the semis
Grade them, top 4 rated teams go in as 1 seeds in each group and so on. This would result in provincials and league games now being important and bring in championship type pressure to the games.
In effect the semi in each group would be an All Ireland 1/4 final.
This creates a simple and clear draw. No advantages given or disadvantages given to when you are knocked out of the championship.
As I say, it works for NA colleges and march madness is a fantastic tournament
There isn't a massive population or money disparity between #1 and #7 in NCAA football or basketball.
There absolutely is in basketball. Kansas v UC Davis, Villanova v Mount St Mary, is David verses goliath. But they look at the spread and if they smaller college keeps the score tight then its viewed as a moral victory. But every year a 2 v 15 seed produces an upset. So the smaller colleges earn the right to play by winning their conference against like sized teams and then get to enjoy playing marque teams.
I think it would be a simple and effective solution. If you don't want to play a top ranked team, start winning league games!!!!
I think no team lower than #8 has ever won the NCAA basketball tournament, once in '85. Indeed no one below #8 has ever made the championship game. No one below #11 has even reached the Final Four.
Also it should be noted that it is easier to assemble a competitive team when you only ever need five players on the court and not 22 in American football or 15 in Gaelic football, which is part of the reason smaller colleges have attracted big players in the past. In Gaelic football a good Roscommon team isn't going to be able to recruit Emlyn Mulligan or Jamie Clarke from one of the smaller counties to complete a team like those colleges can.
Further to that point, those colleges pump a massive amount of their manpower and budget into their teams as well because it is in most cases what they're known for and acts as a walking promotion of the college. Villanova ain't a threat to anyone in football but North and South Carolina are both big enough to be competitive in football and basketball.
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2017, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.
And a chance to play at Croke Park which is not to be sniffed at. They aren't without their problems but I think the Meagher, Rackard and Ring Cups have been generally successful in hurling and it's quite a major thing to win one of them. I would say for the very reason you cited that they are championships in their own right.
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2017, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.
And gping up to the next grade plus relegation will keep the Senior and Inter teams honest.
We have 11 Counties who will in all likelihood never win an AI due to population reasons. Monaghan are the best of those the last few years. Offaly 198w and Ros 1980 were the last AI finalists of those 11.
6 more Counties are hurling first and highly unlikely to win a football AI. Tipp best if these at present.
Last AI Final appearances Tipp 1920(?).
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2017, 02:39:27 PM
Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?
There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.
If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list. Absolute scream in the sports book
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2017, 02:39:27 PM
Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?
There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.
If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list. Absolute scream in the sports book
Just did a fact check, and I was a bit loose with the facts...but a quick summary
16 v 1 - no upsets
15 v 2 - 8 upsets
14 v 3 - 21 upsets
13 v 4 - 26 upsets
but every year there is an upset.
Quote from: Kickham csc on May 30, 2017, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 30, 2017, 02:39:27 PM
Every year there's a 2 v 15 upset?
There might have been 1 year where there wasn't, but yes and always a few scares. A bit like Waterford and Cork at the weekend or Antrim Donegal a cuple of years ago.
If you haven't experienced it, put Vegas and the first two days of March madness in your bucket list. Absolute scream in the sports book
I know March Madness very well. There's actually been 8 upsets of this nature EVER, since it became a 64 team field. Given that with the regions, there's 4 of these matchups every year, it actually works out at a 6% chance, or thereabouts.
There was one in 2016, one in 2013 2 in 2012 and 4 more since 1991.
Edit. I didn't see your second reply. So snap. I was just being pedantic, because I knew there was nothing like a 15v2 every year. 12 v 5, now there's one. My old reliable in the betting.
I think some people are viewing this in the wrong way. The vast majority of players in every sport around the world happily play without a great chance of winning things. Most players simply want regular games against opponents they can compete against. If they get that they know they may win something but at least if they don't there is still merit in their season. We aren't giving that to our IC players which is why our format is inherently flawed.
Whatever the best format is, it isn't this one because it doesn't give players regular, structured games against teams of similar ability. If that changes then there will be merit in playing IC football irrespective of your teams ability.
Zulu you are 100% correct......plus we have to remember this is an amateur game......no player can make a living out of it.......you can't transfer to a better team.......it's areal conundrum
Quote from: The Trap on May 30, 2017, 05:21:07 PM
Zulu you are 100% correct......plus we have to remember this is an amateur game......no player can make a living out of it.......you can't transfer to a better team.......it's areal conundrum
Is it?
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-backroom-team-picture-98181
That's a problem syferus.....some way more amateur than others......but most lads will not make a good living out of the gaa....even in Dublin.....
Quote from: The Trap on May 30, 2017, 05:39:24 PM
That's a problem syferus.....some way more amateur than others......but most lads will not make a good living out of the gaa....even in Dublin.....
Yeah, exactly. But if we want a fair competition the very first thing that needs to be looked at is the funding each senior team has, even before format changes are talked about. It's a bit like changing the seating arrangements in a house that's on fire otherwise.
Quote from: Syferus on May 30, 2017, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: The Trap on May 30, 2017, 05:21:07 PM
Zulu you are 100% correct......plus we have to remember this is an amateur game......no player can make a living out of it.......you can't transfer to a better team.......it's areal conundrum
Is it?
That is pretty funny.
Pathetic, but funny.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-backroom-team-picture-98181
Quote from: Kilkevan on May 30, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 30, 2017, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
There's been so much discussion on this topic, both on this board and elsewhere, that I think a few things can be almost agreed upon:
-If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't devise a system based on the provincials.
-A graded system, whatever it may be, would seem like a sensible option.
-Any system needs to be included in a calendar that meets the needs of the clubs and club players.
The problem, as I see it, is culture. Antrim are used to being allowed to attempt to win the Ulster Championship and the Sam Maguire. Any move to take either away is likely be resisted by all GAA people in the county; players and supporters in particular. The result is lack of interest in the competition entered, players not committing and fans not attending.
The GPA members confirmed their opposition to such a move only last year. Would board members be happy for a tiered-system to be introduced if it meant their county not entering the race for Sam?
The question is, how do you change this general view? If the footballers of the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow and Waterford prefer the current system to the tiered one, I think we have a long way to go in getting the changes that are being suggested by many in the media.
Nobody has offered the players a tiered system like they have at club level so we don't know their views. People talk about the tommy murphy not being a success but that was a competition for division 4 teams knocked out of the championship. Therefore it wasn't seen as a championship competition because you only got into it when you were knocked out of the main championship. ie it was a competition for drop outs. In a tiered system you have a senior championship, an intermediate championship and a junior championship. Teams have a chance of winning an all Ireland championship and an all Ireland medal.
And a chance to play at Croke Park which is not to be sniffed at. They aren't without their problems but I think the Meagher, Rackard and Ring Cups have been generally successful in hurling and it's quite a major thing to win one of them. I would say for the very reason you cited that they are championships in their own right.
I don't know what way the GPA worded the question to their members but the feedback was that there was no appetite for a secondary competition. We can only guess at whether they'd go for a club style championship.
I think Zulu's point above is excellent and hits the nail right on the head.
It's pretty obvious that the game has changed a lot and the top 6 teams in the country are quite a bit ahead of the rest, especially since the new defensive systems that these teams play make it very hard for the so called smaller team to get scores.
Whilst teams might not want to be in a lesser competition and be at least in with a chance of winning Sam, most enjoy going on a run through the back door. Look at Derry last year. They got hockeyed again to Tyrone who they used to have such a competitive rivalry with for years but now they go into these games knowing they have little chance and so it's a poor match. However, once they got into the qualifiers their mood lifted and got back some belief in themselves and went on to beat both Cavan and Meath & almost made it to a quarterfinal.
I'd say a lot of their supporters enjoyed the season maybe a lot better than some of the Tyrone, Donegal or Kerry fans did.
As a Tyrone fan, the Derry game was poor and boring, the Cavan game was exciting I agree but the Ulster final was terrible to watch although rewarding to win of course. The Mayo match again was poor to watch but at least we played 3 teams who were in the same division as us unlike Kerry.
The Kerry fans got to an AI semifinal at a canter beating Clare twice and Tipp once and then losing out to the Dubs as usual. If they had 3 or games against teams in their own division it would be a lot more interesting for them.
We seem to place far to much emphasis on trying to help the weaker teams do better and hope for the big shock performance.
This is why I'm quite interested in seeing how next year's group stages go as we will at least see more of the big teams playing each other.
We already have the best teams and the so called weaker counties playing off against each other in different sections. It's called the league and arguably the best format the GAA have and why more effort isn't put in to making the league more important than changing the championship for the sake of changing I'll never know.
The All Ireland championship is a cup competition and the beauty of any cup competition is the underdog story. The super 8 will sadly end the opportunity of any underdog (Fermanagh 04,Wexford 08, Tipperary last summer) reaching All Ireland semi again.
Quote from: Blowitupref on May 31, 2017, 05:15:17 PM
We already have the best teams and the so called weaker counties playing off against each other in different sections. It's called the league and arguably the best format the GAA have and why more effort isn't put in to making the league more important than changing the championship for the sake of changing I'll never know.
The All Ireland championship is a cup competition and the beauty of any cup competition is the underdog story. The super 8 will sadly end the opportunity of any underdog (Fermanagh 04,Wexford 08, Tipperary last summer) reaching All Ireland semi again.
Totally agree
Are we the only sporting organization in the world that discounts the importance of league games to the extent of "6 months training for 1 game", no you played in provincial cup games (3), and the league (7-8) and then played in a knockout championship"
The championship should be knock out, and if a county wants to improve, focus on youth
That's all well and good lads but we've 130 years of tradition so the only way of increasing the value of the league is to link it to the championship. Games played in muck and shite with teams taking it semi seriously is not providing players with games. The league has grown in importance almost in spite of the GAA.
We have all these grounds around the country yet we leave most of them idle for the majority of the year. All IC footballers should be getting at least 8 games which are part of the All Ireland and all counties should be hosting a minimum of 5 or 6 games at the local grounds each year.
I can only speak for myself but I can't get excited about the games going on now. In both codes it doesn't really matter if there's an odd upset or two, the only games that really matter are those from QF onwards.
Based on this year's final League placings (Promoted teams jump relegated teams)
Senior
Dublin Kerry Donegal Monaghan
Mayowestros Tyrone Galway Kildare
Cavan Ros Meath Cork
Inter
Clare Down Louth Tipp
Derry Fermanagh Armagh Sligo
Offaly Longford Westmeath Wexford
Junior
Laois Antrim Carlow Leitrim
Limerick Waterford Wicklow London
What about Kilkenny New York.
Quote from: Zulu on May 31, 2017, 05:51:27 PM
That's all well and good lads but we've 130 years of tradition so the only way of increasing the value of the league is to link it to the championship. Games played in muck and shite with teams taking it semi seriously is not providing players with games. The league has grown in importance almost in spite of the GAA.
We have all these grounds around the country yet we leave most of them idle for the majority of the year. All IC footballers should be getting at least 8 games which are part of the All Ireland and all counties should be hosting a minimum of 5 or 6 games at the local grounds each year.
I can only speak for myself but I can't get excited about the games going on now. In both codes it doesn't really matter if there's an odd upset or two, the only games that really matter are those from QF onwards.
That's because of the qualifiers. As soon as they came in the intensity and championship cut was missing. As much as anything, the qualifiers have been a major problem for the Provincial Championships. Offaly v Westmeath will be greatly contested, cut and thrust etc. But if it was straight knockout, then it would be another notch up.
That's true of course but the old knockout system was massively flawed and would be a disaster for the GAA in today's 24 hour sports coverage world. The provincials worked because they were regional cup competitions within a cup competition, they aren't anymore and no longer work. We need a modern competition structure for a modern sporting landscape, if we don't adjust soon we may find ourselves in trouble. The GAA are lucky in that there isn't a real domestic sporting competitor as we are making an ass of our shop window competitions.
AZ,
Qualifiers are total knock out yet the games get very poor attendances.
Last year's figures were inflated by Mayowestros' presence from Round 2.
Problem with Offaly v Westmeath is we (the other 30) know that it is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things as neither of them will win Leinster or the AI.
Only games involving the top 5 or 6 will generate outside interest as people will be curious as to how the bigger teams are shaping up new players etc.
Get rid of the pre season competitions i.e. McKenna Cup, start the leagues in Jan, instead of 3 large divisions split them in half geographically, run the games off with top 2 in each group then going to semi final and bottom 2 into relegation playoff. then bring provincial championships forward which are stand alone and not related to All ireland, once these comps are completed 3 tiered all ireland starts as straight knock out. Example from this year
Div 1 North
Cavan
Tyrone
Donegal
Monaghan
Div 2 South
Dublin
Kerry
Roscommon
Mayo
Thats 3 group games, then 1 semi final and possible 1 final, Max 5 league games.
The thinking too their is no more keeping up with the joneses, teams who are in the Junior don't have to do the 5 gym sessions in the morning to keep up with dublin, they can get their best players out because there isn't the same amount of commitment for little chance of reward, gives smaller counties something to build towards and also counties who are in transition a chance to build, same as at club level.
Quote from: Zulu on May 30, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
I think some people are viewing this in the wrong way. The vast majority of players in every sport around the world happily play without a great chance of winning things. Most players simply want regular games against opponents they can compete against. If they get that they know they may win something but at least if they don't there is still merit in their season. We aren't giving that to our IC players which is why our format is inherently flawed.
Whatever the best format is, it isn't this one because it doesn't give players regular, structured games against teams of similar ability. If that changes then there will be merit in playing IC football irrespective of your teams ability.
We already have a competition like that, it's called the league. Championship however is a knockout competition where the strongest team wins by knocking the other teams out. How any GAA player coach or supporter can fail to understand the difference in these 2 things I don't know.
How anyone can fail to understand that that's not the point is utterly stunning. Of course we all know what the league is, I didn't think anyone would fail to follow that.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 01, 2017, 12:05:27 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 30, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
I think some people are viewing this in the wrong way. The vast majority of players in every sport around the world happily play without a great chance of winning things. Most players simply want regular games against opponents they can compete against. If they get that they know they may win something but at least if they don't there is still merit in their season. We aren't giving that to our IC players which is why our format is inherently flawed.
Whatever the best format is, it isn't this one because it doesn't give players regular, structured games against teams of similar ability. If that changes then there will be merit in playing IC football irrespective of your teams ability.
We already have a competition like that, it's called the league. Championship however is a knockout competition where the strongest team wins by knocking the other teams out. How any GAA player coach or supporter can fail to understand the difference in these 2 things I don't know.
And at club level we also have leagues at senior, intermediate and junior, and championships at the same levels. They work brilliantly. There is absolutely no reason they wouldn't work at county.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 01, 2017, 11:28:45 AM
AZ,
Qualifiers are total knock out yet the games get very poor attendances.
Last year's figures were inflated by Mayowestros' presence from Round 2.
Problem with Offaly v Westmeath is we (the other 30) know that it is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things as neither of them will win Leinster or the AI.
Only games involving the top 5 or 6 will generate outside interest as people will be curious as to how the bigger teams are shaping up new players etc.
Qualifiers are by their nature diluted. It's already two beaten teams, and they are not provincial championships, so the crowd isn't bothered.
f**king about with the championship sorta means f**k all. I think we should go either with an open draw knock-out of get rid of the qualifiers and keep the league as is done in almost all other sports nowadays. Boys harp on about champions league, have you ever sat down and watched a European cup or champions league that didn't involve your chosen side? The vast majority are f**king muck, most lads at soccer matches are there for the singing.
The easiest change to make is to change points structure in the league the same as rugby. That breeds intent and favours attacking play. The simply structure is;
Win-4 pts
Draw -2 pts
score 3 goals or more - 1 point
Finish within 3 points - 1 point
Well if the highlighted part was 'give players regular, structured games against teams of similar ability'. Well the only way to do that is through a league structure as far as I can see.
And that would be my favoured solution, link the league to the championship via seeding based on league position and get rid of the provincials. However, a senior, intermediate and junior championship offers that too.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 01, 2017, 11:28:45 AM
AZ,
Qualifiers are total knock out yet the games get very poor attendances.
Last year's figures were inflated by Mayowestros' presence from Round 2.
Problem with Offaly v Westmeath is we (the other 30) know that it is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things as neither of them will win Leinster or the AI.
Only games involving the top 5 or 6 will generate outside interest as people will be curious as to how the bigger teams are shaping up new players etc.
Qualifiers are by their nature diluted. It's already two beaten teams, and they are not provincial championships, so the crowd isn't bothered.
The Rhubarbs were bothered enough to turn up.
How many expected at Westies v Biffos? 5k?
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
5.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
I guarantee you less would turn up than for the first round of Leinster Championship that neither side have a chance of winning.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Not many. You ve to create an incentive. A bit like the Europa League winners get into the Champions League. The intermediate champions show get into the super 8.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
I guarantee you less would turn up than for the first round of Leinster Championship that neither side have a chance of winning.
Too much room for ambiguity left in that sentence :)
How was last year's Offaly v Westmeath? wasn't it an all out game which went to the wire?
Quote from: trileacman on June 01, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
f**king about with the championship sorta means f**k all. I think we should go either with an open draw knock-out of get rid of the qualifiers and keep the league as is done in almost all other sports nowadays. Boys harp on about champions league, have you ever sat down and watched a European cup or champions league that didn't involve your chosen side? The vast majority are f**king muck, most lads at soccer matches are there for the singing.
The easiest change to make is to change points structure in the league the same as rugby. That breeds intent and favours attacking play. The simply structure is;
Win-4 pts
Draw -2 pts
score 3 goals or more - 1 point
Finish within 3 points - 1 point
The GAA could learn a lot from rugby league
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
I guarantee you less would turn up than for the first round of Leinster Championship that neither side have a chance of winning.
I disagree. Maybe initially crowds might not be great and the success of it would be dependent on the attitude of the players but I don't accept that fans can't be won over. The rugby example is proof that that's true. People want to attend live sport and want to support their county. If they had something they could get on board with they would come.
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2017, 05:32:27 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Not many. You ve to create an incentive. A bit like the Europa League winners get into the Champions League. The intermediate champions show get into the super 8.
When is the Super 8 to be played, the middle of July? If it is in the middle of July, the Intermediate Championship would then have to be finished by the end of June? That would effectively relegate it to a pre-season tournament.
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
I guarantee you less would turn up than for the first round of Leinster Championship that neither side have a chance of winning.
I disagree. Maybe initially crowds might not be great and the success of it would be dependent on the attitude of the players but I don't accept that fans can't be won over. The rugby example is proof that that's true. People want to attend live sport and want to support their county. If they had something they could get on board with they would come.
You tend to disagree with a lot of things that involve not ghettoising counties and not protecting Dublin as a single entity.
Both the Waterford manager and the London manager have spoken out in favour of at least a 2 tier championship in recent weeks.
When guys like this at the coalface, and who are the ones likely to be affected, are the ones who are coming out in favour of it, you would have to think that there it will arrive before too much longer.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
The Roscommon Inter Final usually attracts more than the Senior one
The Inter Championship game ( rather chuffed that it's being called after this visionary ;D :-[) would attract plenty because it would be 2 middling teams taking part in a Competition they could win.
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 01, 2017, 05:32:27 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Not many. You ve to create an incentive. A bit like the Europa League winners get into the Champions League. The intermediate champions show get into the super 8.
The Inter Champions go up to Senior next year -as happens in every County.
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2017, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 01, 2017, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 01, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
How many would turn up for the Rossfan Intermediate Championship clash?
Quite a lot (potentially). Who would have thought you could get 60K at a Munster Leinster game before rugby went pro? I think if teams were at full strength and really trying to win it then fans would respond. You'll always get more bandwagonners when your county are one of the best teams in the country but I see no reason why significant numbers won't go to games if they know they are going to watch a genuine contest between teams that want to win.
I guarantee you less would turn up than for the first round of Leinster Championship that neither side have a chance of winning.
I disagree. Maybe initially crowds might not be great and the success of it would be dependent on the attitude of the players but I don't accept that fans can't be won over. The rugby example is proof that that's true. People want to attend live sport and want to support their county. If they had something they could get on board with they would come.
You tend to disagree with a lot of things that involve not ghettoising counties and not protecting Dublin as a single entity.
Best leave the discussion to the adults, - the ghettoization of counties - Jesus wept!
You want to not only split Dublin but Cork also and have smaller counties join up before looking at competition structures. I'm not a bit surprised but you're actually proposing the worst way forward. Unlike other proposals that many might disagree with, yours has no merit whatsoever and you haven't even been able to flesh it out. Is your idea to just get rid of teams in existence for over a 100 years and the world will be right again?
We need to change competition structures, distribute funding better and help counties develop improve but there's nothing you can do to make Waterford footballers All Ireland competitors. Most counties will rarely, if ever, challenge for All Irelands so the focus should be on providing them with a season that has a purpose and realistic goals.
Time to utilise the ignore function Zulu. ;D
Run the leagues, Seed the provincial draws based on finishing league position, and let the lower seeds play first before the big guns come in. Straight knockout, but all games count towards your All Ireland position, as well as a divisional and provincial interim target.
That would be very easy to implement.
This year would be as follows....
Leinster
Dublin 1
Kildare 2
Meath 3
Louth 4
Offaly 5
Longford 6
Laois 7
Westmeath 8
Wexford 9
Carlow 10
Wicklow 11
First round Wicklow v Longford; Carlow v Laois; Wexford v Westmeath
Quarter Finals Dublin v Wicklow/Longford; Kildare v Carlow/Laois; Meath v Wexford/Westmeath; Offaly v Louth
Semi Finals Dublin/Wicklow/Longford v Offaly/Louth; Kildare/Carlow/Laois v Meath/Wexford/Westmeath
And so on for the other provinces.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 02, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
Run the leagues, Seed the provincial draws based on finishing league position, and let the lower seeds play first before the big guns come in. Straight knockout, but all games count towards your All Ireland position, as well as a divisional and provincial interim target.
That would be very easy to implement.
This year would be as follows....
Leinster
Dublin 1
Kildare 2
Meath 3
Louth 4
Offaly 5
Longford 6
Laois 7
Westmeath 8
Wexford 9
Carlow 10
Wicklow 11
First round Wicklow v Longford; Carlow v Laois; Wexford v Westmeath
Quarter Finals Dublin v Wicklow/Longford; Kildare v Carlow/Laois; Meath v Wexford/Westmeath; Offaly v Louth
Semi Finals Dublin/Wicklow/Longford v Offaly/Louth; Kildare/Carlow/Laois v Meath/Wexford/Westmeath
And so on for the other provinces.
UEFA do coefficients which take the last 5 years into account
Nope current year performance only :) And no warm balls in a bowl.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 02, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
all games count towards your All Ireland position,.
Could you expand/explain that bit AZ?
Your league position has a direct correlation in terms of where you come into the provincial championship, or who you play.
So you want to stick with the Provincial strait jacket system of 1890 to 2000?
Quote from: Rossfan on June 02, 2017, 11:54:01 AM
So you want to stick with the Provincial strait jacket system of 1890 to 2000?
Yes, I want to have provincial championships. I like them, the players like them and I think in general the GAA public like them.
I want and like them too but think we need 3 separate graded AI Championships after the Provincials to end the current situation where 75% of Qualifier games are quite frankly pointless.
One thing I and I suspect most of the GAA world don't want is an AI Championship limited to the 4 Provincial winners only.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 02, 2017, 11:55:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 02, 2017, 11:54:01 AM
So you want to stick with the Provincial strait jacket system of 1890 to 2000?
Yes, I want to have provincial championships. I like them, the players like them and I think in general the GAA public like them.
I think they have been devalued in football by the qfs.
I wouldn't miss them.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 02, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
Run the leagues, Seed the provincial draws based on finishing league position, and let the lower seeds play first before the big guns come in. Straight knockout, but all games count towards your All Ireland position, as well as a divisional and provincial interim target.
That would be very easy to implement.
This year would be as follows....
Leinster
Dublin 1
Kildare 2
Meath 3
Louth 4
Offaly 5
Longford 6
Laois 7
Westmeath 8
Wexford 9
Carlow 10
Wicklow 11
First round Wicklow v Longford; Carlow v Laois; Wexford v Westmeath
Quarter Finals Dublin v Wicklow/Longford; Kildare v Carlow/Laois; Meath v Wexford/Westmeath; Offaly v Louth
Semi Finals Dublin/Wicklow/Longford v Offaly/Louth; Kildare/Carlow/Laois v Meath/Wexford/Westmeath
And so on for the other provinces.
While I like the linking of the league to the championship and the straight knockout element I just think that keeping the provincials means it will become stale. At the end of the day there are probably two thirds of counties without any chance of winning a provincial title. Many teams might wonder what the point of the league is if they still can't escape the shackles of Kerry, Dublin or Mayo.
Play the provincials as stand alone competitions. If they are valued by players and supporters in their own right they should still be fiercely contested, if they don't then why are we trying to keep them? League dictates your seeding and the knockout element of the All Ireland is 1 v 32, 2 v 31 etc.
I think we are going to get a new economic system sooner rather than later and that it will spread money around the country instead of having it hoarded in Dublin as per the current system. That should be good for a better spread of winners
Quote from: Zulu on June 02, 2017, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 02, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
Run the leagues, Seed the provincial draws based on finishing league position, and let the lower seeds play first before the big guns come in. Straight knockout, but all games count towards your All Ireland position, as well as a divisional and provincial interim target.
That would be very easy to implement.
This year would be as follows....
Leinster
Dublin 1
Kildare 2
Meath 3
Louth 4
Offaly 5
Longford 6
Laois 7
Westmeath 8
Wexford 9
Carlow 10
Wicklow 11
First round Wicklow v Longford; Carlow v Laois; Wexford v Westmeath
Quarter Finals Dublin v Wicklow/Longford; Kildare v Carlow/Laois; Meath v Wexford/Westmeath; Offaly v Louth
Semi Finals Dublin/Wicklow/Longford v Offaly/Louth; Kildare/Carlow/Laois v Meath/Wexford/Westmeath
And so on for the other provinces.
While I like the linking of the league to the championship and the straight knockout element I just think that keeping the provincials means it will become stale. At the end of the day there are probably two thirds of counties without any chance of winning a provincial title. Many teams might wonder what the point of the league is if they still can't escape the shackles of Kerry, Dublin or Mayo.
Play the provincials as stand alone competitions. If they are valued by players and supporters in their own right they should still be fiercely contested, if they don't then why are we trying to keep them? League dictates your seeding and the knockout element of the All Ireland is 1 v 32, 2 v 31 etc.
Hang on, are you suggesting that when all is said and done you've come up with a proposal that would see Dublin v London in the first round of a knockout championship?
Yes, but if London want to avoid that then get out of division 4 and isn't that what we want? The team that finishes bottom of division 4 isn't going to win anything anyway but in my proposal that team have a pathway to avoid Dublin. All you have to do to avoid any of the top four teams in Ireland in round one is finish in the top four in division four. Is that too hard an ask?
There's no perfect system but in this system all division 2 teams play division 3 teams and the top four in division 4 play the bottom four in division 1 in round one. That's a lot of competitive games with the possibility of one or two major upsets.
Zulu you're usually pretty sensible but a 32 Co KO competition where the weakest play the strongest in Round 1 is an awful suggestion.
Be more humane to not allow them partake at all.
If we're to have a single competition along you're lines then later the bottom 16 play round 1
Then the 8 winners play the D2 teams in Round 2
Eight Round 2 winners play D1 teams in Round 3.
That's not a bad idea Rossfan but there's two issues I see straight away. One, the top teams may have to wait a month or more for their first championship game and will have to play opponents that have two games under their belt. I think the competition should be the same for all. Two, my proposal puts the league at the centre of the season, do well and you get rewarded (in the current season but you can also improve every year) do poorly and you're punished. I see no issue with that at the elite level of our sport.
If London, Waterford, Carlow etc. want to play in the All Ireland I don't see how it's being harsh to have them play Dublin in knockout football. They can avoid it by doing better. The system I propose means every league game (all of them against your peers) matters and if you're a weak team you've a once off shot at beating a big gun and knocking them out of the competition. I'd say London would take the Dubs going to Ruislip for a knockout game every day of the week.
There's absolutely merit in London playing in a separate competition to Dublin but I don't really see the advantage of them playing Laois or Down rather than Dublin just because Dublin are too good.
EDIT: Sorry that last line isn't very clear. Basically if there's an appetite for an A and B All Ireland that's fine but as long as the likes of London object to playing for something other than Sam I don't see why it's unfair for them to play Dublin or Kerry, it's what they signed up to.
The All Ireland should only be teams in Ireland, so throw London out and let them play in the All British championship.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:31:16 PM
The All Ireland should only be teams in Ireland, so throw London out and let them play in the All British championship.
Sure let's limit it down to the 26 counties that actually make up Ireland while we're at it..
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2017, 05:46:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:31:16 PM
The All Ireland should only be teams in Ireland, so throw London out and let them play in the All British championship.
Sure let's limit it down to the 26 counties that actually make up Ireland while we're at it..
There is no point in your usual offensive coat trailing, London is not in Ireland pure and simple.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:51:57 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2017, 05:46:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:31:16 PM
The All Ireland should only be teams in Ireland, so throw London out and let them play in the All British championship.
Sure let's limit it down to the 26 counties that actually make up Ireland while we're at it..
There is no point in your usual offensive coat trailing, London is not in Ireland pure and simple.
True, but why are you taking that stance? I know New York make it 33, but aren't London useful to have in the absence of Kilkenny?
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:51:57 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2017, 05:46:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 02, 2017, 05:31:16 PM
The All Ireland should only be teams in Ireland, so throw London out and let them play in the All British championship.
Sure let's limit it down to the 26 counties that actually make up Ireland while we're at it..
There is no point in your usual offensive coat trailing, London is not in Ireland pure and simple.
Brits out. Keep Kilburn Irish
New York doesn't enter the qualifiers at the moment because it would upset the mathematical symmetry of 32 counties. Say NY started winning in Connacht. Which county would be kicked out of the qualifiers? Would it be Wicklow ?
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2017, 06:21:15 PM
New York doesn't enter the qualifiers at the moment because it would upset the mathematical symmetry of 32 counties. Say NY started winning in Connacht. Which county would be kicked out of the qualifiers? Would it be Wicklow ?
Seeing as a good portion of their players/management are illegals that are afraid of not getting back into the US even if NY were to fluke a win they would never fulfil a fixture in Ireland. No such worries for London, at least till Brexit comes.
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2017, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2017, 06:21:15 PM
New York doesn't enter the qualifiers at the moment because it would upset the mathematical symmetry of 32 counties. Say NY started winning in Connacht. Which county would be kicked out of the qualifiers? Would it be Wicklow ?
Seeing as a good portion of their players/management are illegals that are afraid of not getting back into the US even if NY were to fluke a win they'd ould never fulfil a fixture in Ireland. No such worries for London, at least till Brexit comes.
I've heard this said before, but surely not nowadays?! Maybe twenty years ago you had lads that over stayed their visas and were out there playing football but the lads playing now?
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on June 03, 2017, 01:25:25 AM
Quote from: Syferus on June 02, 2017, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2017, 06:21:15 PM
New York doesn't enter the qualifiers at the moment because it would upset the mathematical symmetry of 32 counties. Say NY started winning in Connacht. Which county would be kicked out of the qualifiers? Would it be Wicklow ?
Seeing as a good portion of their players/management are illegals that are afraid of not getting back into the US even if NY were to fluke a win they'd ould never fulfil a fixture in Ireland. No such worries for London, at least till Brexit comes.
I've heard this said before, but surely not nowadays?! Maybe twenty years ago you had lads that over stayed their visas and were out there playing football but the lads playing now?
Yeah from what I know of the younger generation heading to the US it seems that there are far less going illegally than were in previous generations - far easier to head elsewhere - Oz, Canada, elsewhere and avoid all the hassle.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 02, 2017, 04:01:52 PM
Zulu you're usually pretty sensible but a 32 Co KO competition where the weakest play the strongest in Round 1 is an awful suggestion.
Be more humane to not allow them partake at all.
If we're to have a single competition along you're lines then later the bottom 16 play round 1
Then the 8 winners play the D2 teams in Round 2
Eight Round 2 winners play D1 teams in Round 3.
When the list of round 1 qualifiers is complete, it will contain 14 of the 16 teams in Div 3 and Div 4. The exceptions will be Leitrim (who beat a fellow Div 4 side) and the winner of the Div 3 contest between Offaly and Westmeath. Just promoted Louth are in the qualifiers and the last team in, the loser of Cavan/Monaghan look like they don't really belong there.
So the current system appears to work fine, in my opinion. Just tighten up the schedule and use Saturday as well.
Niall Carew has voiced his opposition to the introduction of an All-Ireland 'B' football championship.
In an interview with the Irish News, the Sligo manager didn't mince his words when saying: "It would be an absolute disaster.
"You'd be able to count at the Lory Meagher, Nicky Rackard Cup and Christy Ring finals at Croke Park last weekend. Nobody covers those games. The Sunday Game would cover it the first year, just for the craic, but I guarantee you in two or three years' time it'll be the top eight and that's the way it'll be.
"The thing is a 'B' championship wouldn't work. All you have to do is look at the hurling. Teams are getting worse. Anyone who has played at any level knows the more often you play the top teams, the better you'll get.
"You can see what's happened since the Ulster hurling champions no longer qualify for the All-Ireland series. You had Antrim, Derry and Down - three counties who were able to compete.
"Once you stop playing at that level, you're just going to disappear, literally. That's what happened to Ulster hurling; they're not competitive enough."
Real talk.
Id argue that Laois, Meath, Westmeath, Carlow and Kerry have improved. Antrim, Offaly, Down and Derry have dropped back, so have their football teams as well. Prehaps Gaa as a whole in Ulster is in a period of decline or stagnation at best.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 16, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
Niall Carew has voiced his opposition to the introduction of an All-Ireland 'B' football championship.
In an interview with the Irish News, the Sligo manager didn't mince his words when saying: "It would be an absolute disaster.
"You'd be able to count at the Lory Meagher, Nicky Rackard Cup and Christy Ring finals at Croke Park last weekend. Nobody covers those games. The Sunday Game would cover it the first year, just for the craic, but I guarantee you in two or three years' time it'll be the top eight and that's the way it'll be.
"The thing is a 'B' championship wouldn't work. All you have to do is look at the hurling. Teams are getting worse. Anyone who has played at any level knows the more often you play the top teams, the better you'll get.
"You can see what's happened since the Ulster hurling champions no longer qualify for the All-Ireland series. You had Antrim, Derry and Down - three counties who were able to compete.
"Once you stop playing at that level, you're just going to disappear, literally. That's what happened to Ulster hurling; they're not competitive enough."
His argument doesn't make any sense. You can't say those counties playing in the meagher, rackard and ring aren't getting big crowds watching them now without comparing it with the crowds they used to get in the old system. My info is only hearsay but from what I hear Derry get a lot more spectators now in the ring or rackard than they ever used to get. The crowds are still small but because the games are meaningful and they have a realistic chance of winning something the numbers watching have gone up.
On a side note, it was an utter disgrace that the Christy Ring final was not televised this year. These finals have been fantastic entertainment over the last few years.
Quote from: didlyi on June 16, 2017, 09:40:23 PM
On a side note, it was an utter disgrace that the Christy Ring final was not televised this year. These finals have been fantastic entertainment over the last few years.
That they're not tells you the getto some fools are considering driving football into.
Stop talking bollocks Syferus, if that's possible of course. The Christy Ring wasn't shown because most people aren't bothered about watching it. Your local junior team might be involved in great matches every week but they don't show them on national TV.
What getto are you talking about? What Narnia are 'these fools' trying to remove Waterford, Antrim, Leitrim, Limerick, Wicklow, Carlow etc, from? Have the current structures served these counties well?
Quote from: Zulu on June 16, 2017, 09:52:22 PM
Stop talking bollocks Syferus, if that's possible of course. The Christy Ring wasn't shown because most people aren't bothered about watching it. Your local junior team might be involved in great matches every week but they don't show them on national TV.
What getto are you talking about? What Narnia are 'these fools' trying to remove Waterford, Antrim, Leitrim, Limerick, Wicklow, Carlow etc, from? Have the current structures served these counties well?
What are you going to do about Dublin's €1.5 million euro in grants Zulu, or do you only talk about nonsense format changes?
Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships with peomotion/relegation.
Provincials as now everyone enters.
Some kind of a League
The bottom 16 or more hurling teams never had many going to see them for over 100 years.
Carew's team aren't going to win Sam or give it a rattle.
Lory Meagher Cup is a hurling competition among counties that do not take hurling serious; most of them have 1 or 2 clubs to select from. Rackard Cup teams are not much better. You cannot compare these county teams with the bottom 16 football counties.
Bottom 16 counties know their ranking through the league and for long term development that is where they need to progress. They do not need to meet each other in a duplicate competition.
The Championship structure needs to change - it currently favours the strong who avail of the second chance afforded through the Qualifiers. 'Super 8s' (what a name) will only strengthen them further.
Bring it back to a knock out competition and the magic will return!
If you want to give counties more games, consider doing it in the league; maybe a double round system, home and away. Also think about playing it in the summer.
Quote from: Catch and Kick on June 17, 2017, 11:45:54 AM
Bring it back to a knock out competition and the magic will return!
16 Counties will get 1 game and then disappear - is that the magic??