Ballyjamesduff

[omaghjoe]

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

[Itchy]

Can't even bring myself to read this story. So so sad to see them wee kids smiling in pictures knowing what happened to them.

[J70]

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

[mrdeeds]

Is the verdict not creating even more stigma for depression or anxiety sufferers?

[omaghjoe]

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.   

[seafoid]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

[Franko]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

[seafoid]

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

[Esmarelda]

Interesting discussion with regards to the responsibility of the perpetrator, although I should state that it's completely secondary to the unimaginable tragedy that has hit the family and friends of the four deceased members of the Hawe family.

My thoughts on it were that no person could murder their children unless they were suffering from a mental illness. I know that's a very vague statement and it's not supposed to excuse any such act, but it's what I felt. There was a lady on Pat Kenny this morning, who appeared to be an expert of some sort, who suggested as much, at least in the vast majority of cases.

The psychologist in this case also feels that Alan Hawe suffered from a depressive condition which then developed into a psychotic act that day.

So when it comes to the question of what would have happened if he had failed to kill himself I wonder if he should be "punished". I'd have thought when people commit a crime worthy of jail time, the time is served for a combination of reasons; punishment, to take them out of society in case they repeat offend and rehabilitation. Would any of these applied to Alan Hawe if he had survived? Would he be better off in a mental institution? Is it unimaginable that his wife's family would ever have to see him free again?

Then after wondering all that, I searched for the inquest on the Chada boys' deaths and my initial thoughts seem to be dispelled. I see no professional opinion that Sanjeev Chada suffered from any mental illness. He had money issues but there seems to be little other information on why he may have done what he did. Of course, perhaps he did suffer a psychotic episode similar to Alan Hawe, but it definitely has changed my perspective on the whole case.

[J70]

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. In my craziest rage I've still personally been well aware of right and wrong and consequences, no matter how much I might have wanted to lash out at someone or something. I'm talking about people experiencing delusions and warped perceptions of reality and so on. Has the "I was very angry" defense ever actually worked for someone in terms of diminished responsibility?

I would qualify all of the above though in that I am about as far from an expert on mental illness as you can get (personal, minor OCD issues aside).

[nrico2006]

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.

Blind rage, anger etc is not the same as having some mental health issue though.  I have always knew right from wrong and been aware of the consequences of my actions no mater how angry I have been, but then again I haven't suffered with a serious mental illness.  You often hear people calling those who commit suicide as selfish, with counter arguments being that it was the illness that caused them to do it and not their fault.  Should this attitude be taken with someone like Hawe?

[guy crouchback]

if your defense is insanity and that defense is accepted by a jury then you are found not guilty of the crime you are charged with.
in most cases where this happen you are then committed to a psychiatric institution until such a time as you are no longer insane.
this could be a week or it could be 50 years, or never.
most people who have committed a murder and been found insane have ended up spending a long long time in psychiatric care, often much longer then they would have spent  in jail for murder.

there are exceptions to this of course, your man Gallagher  being one.

the bar is set very high to be considered insane when committing your crime. it is quite rare and in the vast majority of cases you would not need to be a professional to see that the person had suffered a complete psychotic breakdown. its a jury that decides ultimately, not the treating doctors so its rare that the accused can ''fool'' everyone into thinking they were out of their mind at the time.

[seafoid]

A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

[J70]

A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

But what do you do?

Is there a linear or predictable path from depression or specific signs to senseless murder?

When does society and the government step in?

Its the same in the US with mentally ill people buying guns legally.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-left-note-asking-that-he-not-be-forgiven-1.3333133

Hawe (40) acknowledged the brutal nature of his quadruple murder in a letter addressed to his parents, his two brothers and his wife's mother and sister.

The five-page letter, running over three A4 sheets, was written, it is suspected, after Hawe killed Clodagh (39) with a knife and axe in a downstairs living room and Liam (13), Niall (11) and Ryan (6) with a knife in their beds upstairs.

Hawe left further writing, at times disjointed, on a note and an envelope that contained the letter. He wrote on another envelope that he taped inside the back door of the house: "Please do not come in. Please call the gardaí."

He then took his own life in the hallway of the home.

In the notes left on the kitchen table, Hawe apologised repeatedly for his actions but said he had no other choice. He asked that he not be forgiven.

"I am sorry for how I murdered them all but I simply had no other way," he wrote.

The school vice-principal explained why he had carried out the murders, questioning how his sons could cope with his suicide and saying it was easier that he had killed them.

"I am sorry for my brutality but I had no other way," he wrote.

Psychotic symptoms

Prof Harry Kennedy, clinical director of the Central Mental Hospital, told the second day of the inquest into the deaths of the family that Hawe was mentally troubled and descended into psychotic symptoms at the time of the killings.

He said that somebody who, like Hawe, was undergoing a worsening mental crisis into psychotic episodes would imagine some impending catastrophe about to befall them and from which there was no return. However, while there may be some basis in fact in the person's worrying, their illness "blew it beyond all proportion"

All three boys were stabbed or slashed in the throat, rendering them incapable of crying out. Deputy State Pathologist Dr Michael Curtis speculated that Clodagh, who was killed with an axe and knife to the head and neck, and the eldest boy Liam, may have been attacked first because they posed a bigger threat of fighting back.

Cavan coroner Dr Mary Flanagan declined to disclose the contents of Hawe's notes, though she gave access to the six female and one male members of the jury.

In his notes, Hawe addressed his anxieties over his performance as a teacher at his school and how he believed his students perceived him and his work. At one point, he refers to how people had looked at him over the summer.

The inquest heard that Hawe had told his GP that he was stressed because of a conflict with a colleague at the school. He was due to return to his school after the summer break on the morning the bodies were found.

Hawe left instructions that his body be cremated and his ashes disposed of in the sea and that he not be buried as a Catholic.

He even referred to his own psychosis, questioning whether he enjoyed "all the good stuff we did".