Author Topic: Man Utd Thread:  (Read 2581936 times)

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42795 on: January 12, 2018, 11:44:58 AM »
The crucial part he's missed out is that Real & Barca have always been able to spend when they needed to which can't be said of United from 2009 to 2011 and they don't have any domestic competition from the other clubs financially. United needed to sell arguably the best player we've ever had to balance the books, Real & Barca didn't have to so that.

Also how do you judge net spend when spending £100m in around 09/10 is like spending £300m now. It was only 6 months ago our owners refused to buy a player over a £5m difference in valuation, a player who would have made a difference and who has had a great season for Inter.



I donít think they sold Ronaldo to balance the books, they had no option, it was another Coutinho situation. Think Ferguson said they did well to keep him for the extra year with the promise he could go then.

Have you seen the figures I posted a few posts back?

Why did United insist on Real paying the £80m upfront instead of over a period of years?

United spent 40% of the clubs revenue on net finance costs in 08/09 and it was a similar % in 09/10. The club were under huge financial pressure.

Selling Ronaldo to Real is understandable but not replacing him or buying any top player for 3 years is unforgivable and the opposite of what Fergie had always done when he needed to.

Why?

You do realise money has a time value don't you? If they didn't look for that money up front then I think they'd need their heads examined, how many people would look for the money not to be paid up front? It would be idiotic to do from a business perspective.

United have been able to financially compete with the top clubs all during that time. You seem to be under the illusion that United should have spent for spending sake, Barca and Real did not.

Mike Tyson

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42796 on: January 12, 2018, 11:45:24 AM »
Glazers took majority control in May 2005.

Net spend on transfers by season:
2005/6 - £1,000,000
2006/7 - £4,100,000
2007/8 - £26,550,000
2008/9 - £33,750,000
2009/10 - (£64,500,000)  - subtotal to this point £4,900,000 over 5 seasons.
2010/11 - £13,550,000
2011/12 - £38,150,000
2012/13 - £51,100,000
2013/14 - £66,700,000
2014/15 - £104,200,000
2015/16 - £28,150,000
2016/17 - £102,000,000
2017/8 - not complete yet.

Figures from transferleague.co.uk.

Averages out at less than £35m per season. Which is a very small figure for a club generating the income and profits (before interest) that United deliver.

Lets use Barcelona net spend as a compairson since the Glazers took charge.

17/18 - €98m
16/17 - €91m
15/16 - €4m
14/15 - €84m
13/14 - €39m
12/13 - nil
11/12 - €38m
10/11 - €4m
09/10 - €83m
08/09 - €38m
07/08 - €53m
06/07 - €18m
05/06 - (€10m)


That't an average net spend of €42m per season and converting that to £ using an average exch rate of .80 would leave also under £33m per season. So I think you've disproved your own theory there, United have been one of the top spending clubs in Europe since the Glazers took charge. Their average net spend with Barcelona in that time period is pretty much identical and that's not including the 100m this season you have excluded which would put United ahead of Barcelona?

Do you want me to do Madrid next or will I save you the embarrassment?

Where'd you get those figures? Net spend in 2012/13 wasn't 0. Brought in Song & alba that year for £30m and off-loaded £450k worth of players according to http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-barcelona/alletransfers/verein/131

Using the above website, avg net spends per season for the three clubs are:
Barca £39.3m
Man Utd £46.8m
Real £49.1m

Before Ferguson left:
Barca £29.8m
Man Utd £19.8m
Real £59.1m

Post Ferguson:
Barca £64.4m
Man Utd £108.2m
Real £9.5m

And?

Does it change the overall narrative that the Glazers stopped United being financially unable to compete with these clubs? No it does not.

As much as United fans seem determined to use the Glazers financial prudence as strawmen for their swift fall from the top of European football, the facts contradict us. Bad moves in the transfer market in Ferguson's latter years, paying over the odds for domestic players and making short terms signings at enormous expense like Van Persie. They have also erred in their managerial appointments, financially they can and have competed with all clubs in Europe.


And your posting false numbers, that's what.

I never argued anything about the Glazers stopping United doing anything.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42797 on: January 12, 2018, 11:48:50 AM »
United are spending big money in a panic in the last few years to attempt to make up for the lack of investment in the 2005 to 2012 period (while the future of the club was placed in jeopardy by massive debt and interest payments). To say, as you did, that

Quote
United are one of the highest spending clubs in the world since the Glazers took control, consistently


is completely and utterly false. They have been high spenders in recent seasons and that has brought the average up over the period. You used the word "consistently" which the facts have clearly proven to not be the case.

Hope you're not embarrassed.

In 2005-2012, United won 4 titles, 1 CL and made 2 other CL finals. So why spend for spending sake?

During periods of dominance clubs have less need to spend, that's reality and you can check it out with Madrid and Barcelona. Madrid have now gone through 2 seasons of negative transfer spends after winning 3 CLs in a row. It's common and not unique for United, the facts continue to contradict the argument you are putting forward.

Minder

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42798 on: January 12, 2018, 11:49:54 AM »
The crucial part he's missed out is that Real & Barca have always been able to spend when they needed to which can't be said of United from 2009 to 2011 and they don't have any domestic competition from the other clubs financially. United needed to sell arguably the best player we've ever had to balance the books, Real & Barca didn't have to so that.

Also how do you judge net spend when spending £100m in around 09/10 is like spending £300m now. It was only 6 months ago our owners refused to buy a player over a £5m difference in valuation, a player who would have made a difference and who has had a great season for Inter.



I donít think they sold Ronaldo to balance the books, they had no option, it was another Coutinho situation. Think Ferguson said they did well to keep him for the extra year with the promise he could go then.

Have you seen the figures I posted a few posts back?

Why did United insist on Real paying the £80m upfront instead of over a period of years?

United spent 40% of the clubs revenue on net finance costs in 08/09 and it was a similar % in 09/10. The club were under huge financial pressure.

Selling Ronaldo to Real is understandable but not replacing him or buying any top player for 3 years is unforgivable and the opposite of what Fergie had always done when he needed to.

No but itís not true to say United sold him to balance the books, he wanted to leave, they couldnít keep him.
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Geoff Tipps

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42799 on: January 12, 2018, 11:52:31 AM »
United are spending big money in a panic in the last few years to attempt to make up for the lack of investment in the 2005 to 2012 period (while the future of the club was placed in jeopardy by massive debt and interest payments). To say, as you did, that

Quote
United are one of the highest spending clubs in the world since the Glazers took control, consistently


is completely and utterly false. They have been high spenders in recent seasons and that has brought the average up over the period. You used the word "consistently" which the facts have clearly proven to not be the case.

Hope you're not embarrassed.

In 2005-2012, United won 4 titles, 1 CL and made 2 other CL finals. So why spend for spending sake?

During periods of dominance clubs have less need to spend, that's reality and you can check it out with Madrid and Barcelona. Madrid have now gone through 2 seasons of negative transfer spends after winning 3 CLs in a row. It's common and not unique for United, the facts continue to contradict the argument you are putting forward.

And when they don't continue spending the dominance ends!
Madrid have won 2 in a row but don't let facts get in your way!!

magpie seanie

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42800 on: January 12, 2018, 11:57:16 AM »
The crucial part he's missed out is that Real & Barca have always been able to spend when they needed to which can't be said of United from 2009 to 2011 and they don't have any domestic competition from the other clubs financially. United needed to sell arguably the best player we've ever had to balance the books, Real & Barca didn't have to so that.

Also how do you judge net spend when spending £100m in around 09/10 is like spending £300m now. It was only 6 months ago our owners refused to buy a player over a £5m difference in valuation, a player who would have made a difference and who has had a great season for Inter.



I donít think they sold Ronaldo to balance the books, they had no option, it was another Coutinho situation. Think Ferguson said they did well to keep him for the extra year with the promise he could go then.

Have you seen the figures I posted a few posts back?

Why did United insist on Real paying the £80m upfront instead of over a period of years?

United spent 40% of the clubs revenue on net finance costs in 08/09 and it was a similar % in 09/10. The club were under huge financial pressure.

Selling Ronaldo to Real is understandable but not replacing him or buying any top player for 3 years is unforgivable and the opposite of what Fergie had always done when he needed to.

No but itís not true to say United sold him to balance the books, he wanted to leave, they couldnít keep him.


They knew he was going and allowed Ferguson to spend additional money in the previous two seasons on that basis. So MM's statement is correct.

Maroon Manc

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42801 on: January 12, 2018, 11:57:35 AM »
The crucial part he's missed out is that Real & Barca have always been able to spend when they needed to which can't be said of United from 2009 to 2011 and they don't have any domestic competition from the other clubs financially. United needed to sell arguably the best player we've ever had to balance the books, Real & Barca didn't have to so that.

Also how do you judge net spend when spending £100m in around 09/10 is like spending £300m now. It was only 6 months ago our owners refused to buy a player over a £5m difference in valuation, a player who would have made a difference and who has had a great season for Inter.



I donít think they sold Ronaldo to balance the books, they had no option, it was another Coutinho situation. Think Ferguson said they did well to keep him for the extra year with the promise he could go then.

Have you seen the figures I posted a few posts back?

Why did United insist on Real paying the £80m upfront instead of over a period of years?

United spent 40% of the clubs revenue on net finance costs in 08/09 and it was a similar % in 09/10. The club were under huge financial pressure.

Selling Ronaldo to Real is understandable but not replacing him or buying any top player for 3 years is unforgivable and the opposite of what Fergie had always done when he needed to.

No but itís not true to say United sold him to balance the books, he wanted to leave, they couldnít keep him.

In addition its not true to state that United could have afforded to keep him.

United had financial issues which all the evidence points too.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42802 on: January 12, 2018, 12:01:18 PM »
United are spending big money in a panic in the last few years to attempt to make up for the lack of investment in the 2005 to 2012 period (while the future of the club was placed in jeopardy by massive debt and interest payments). To say, as you did, that

Quote
United are one of the highest spending clubs in the world since the Glazers took control, consistently


is completely and utterly false. They have been high spenders in recent seasons and that has brought the average up over the period. You used the word "consistently" which the facts have clearly proven to not be the case.

Hope you're not embarrassed.

In 2005-2012, United won 4 titles, 1 CL and made 2 other CL finals. So why spend for spending sake?

During periods of dominance clubs have less need to spend, that's reality and you can check it out with Madrid and Barcelona. Madrid have now gone through 2 seasons of negative transfer spends after winning 3 CLs in a row. It's common and not unique for United, the facts continue to contradict the argument you are putting forward.

And when they don't continue spending the dominance ends!
Madrid have won 2 in a row but don't let facts get in your way!!

United never failed to spend, in fact they have spent a bucketload since they last won the league, they have just done it very poorly.

Minder

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42803 on: January 12, 2018, 12:04:54 PM »
The crucial part he's missed out is that Real & Barca have always been able to spend when they needed to which can't be said of United from 2009 to 2011 and they don't have any domestic competition from the other clubs financially. United needed to sell arguably the best player we've ever had to balance the books, Real & Barca didn't have to so that.

Also how do you judge net spend when spending £100m in around 09/10 is like spending £300m now. It was only 6 months ago our owners refused to buy a player over a £5m difference in valuation, a player who would have made a difference and who has had a great season for Inter.



I donít think they sold Ronaldo to balance the books, they had no option, it was another Coutinho situation. Think Ferguson said they did well to keep him for the extra year with the promise he could go then.

Have you seen the figures I posted a few posts back?

Why did United insist on Real paying the £80m upfront instead of over a period of years?

United spent 40% of the clubs revenue on net finance costs in 08/09 and it was a similar % in 09/10. The club were under huge financial pressure.

Selling Ronaldo to Real is understandable but not replacing him or buying any top player for 3 years is unforgivable and the opposite of what Fergie had always done when he needed to.

No but itís not true to say United sold him to balance the books, he wanted to leave, they couldnít keep him.

In addition its not true to state that United could have afforded to keep him.

United had financial issues which all the evidence points too.

I didnít mention them affording to keep him but again the player wanted to leave, United couldnít keep him from a footballing perspective if you want me to phrase it that way. You seemed to frame it that Ronadlo was sold as some sort of fire sale. He wasnít. United has a player that no longer wished to play for them. Thatís why he was sold.
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42804 on: January 12, 2018, 12:12:00 PM »
Ronaldo wanted to go, when Madrid and Barca come calling it will be very difficult to say no and should Madrid come knocking for De Gea again it will be difficult to see United keeping him.

magpie seanie

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42805 on: January 12, 2018, 12:13:25 PM »
If Ronaldo had had some sort of 11th hour change of heart and decided to stay the club would have had to sell other players or come up with other means of raising cash quickly. That is a fact. The cashflow situation at the time was very, very tight.

I don't know why this stuff is so hard for people to grasp.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42806 on: January 12, 2018, 12:15:49 PM »
If Ronaldo had had some sort of 11th hour change of heart and decided to stay the club would have had to sell other players or come up with other means of raising cash quickly. That is a fact. The cashflow situation at the time was very, very tight.

I don't know why this stuff is so hard for people to grasp.

That is conjecture, not fact.

Maroon Manc

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42807 on: January 12, 2018, 12:16:52 PM »
If Ronaldo had had some sort of 11th hour change of heart and decided to stay the club would have had to sell other players or come up with other means of raising cash quickly. That is a fact. The cashflow situation at the time was very, very tight.

I don't know why this stuff is so hard for people to grasp.

We're wasting our time.

All the evidence is there in the accounts and with Fergie's lack of spending to back up the theory.

Spending £100m back from 09 to 11 would have saved the Glazers spending £300m since Fergie left.

Geoff Tipps

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42808 on: January 12, 2018, 12:20:01 PM »
United are spending big money in a panic in the last few years to attempt to make up for the lack of investment in the 2005 to 2012 period (while the future of the club was placed in jeopardy by massive debt and interest payments). To say, as you did, that

Quote
United are one of the highest spending clubs in the world since the Glazers took control, consistently


is completely and utterly false. They have been high spenders in recent seasons and that has brought the average up over the period. You used the word "consistently" which the facts have clearly proven to not be the case.

Hope you're not embarrassed.

In 2005-2012, United won 4 titles, 1 CL and made 2 other CL finals. So why spend for spending sake?

During periods of dominance clubs have less need to spend, that's reality and you can check it out with Madrid and Barcelona. Madrid have now gone through 2 seasons of negative transfer spends after winning 3 CLs in a row. It's common and not unique for United, the facts continue to contradict the argument you are putting forward.

And when they don't continue spending the dominance ends!
Madrid have won 2 in a row but don't let facts get in your way!!

United never failed to spend, in fact they have spent a bucketload since they last won the league, they have just done it very poorly.

I can't believe I'm standing up for United but the point is that they stopped spending heavily when they were dominant.
You're right they have spent sh*tloads recently but the damage was done in the late Fergie years when the spending dropped off. Since then it's been a scatter gun approach
to transfers and they are reaping the rewards now!

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Man Utd Thread:
« Reply #42809 on: January 12, 2018, 12:20:21 PM »
If Ronaldo had had some sort of 11th hour change of heart and decided to stay the club would have had to sell other players or come up with other means of raising cash quickly. That is a fact. The cashflow situation at the time was very, very tight.

I don't know why this stuff is so hard for people to grasp.

We're wasting our time.

All the evidence is there in the accounts and with Fergie's lack of spending to back up the theory.

Spending £100m back from 09 to 11 would have saved the Glazers spending £300m since Fergie left.

Would it?

Spending £300m in the last few years hasn't help. You fail to be grasping that poor investment seems to be the problem rather than lack of investment.